SGM ARE IN!

[digress]

Understood. I think you have been reasonable and I was just speculating if there might have been a miscommunication. I think you are right to return it under the circumstance.

 

I'm hoping this is just a revision issue and can be corrected with another revision and then he could offer an exchange.

 

 

Hey digress,

 

I'm trying to not say anything else on this matter but guess I have to answer this. Yes it was made very clear that I would be returning this to him for a refund because of how bad the static is as you all can hear in the video. He received my return but refused to give me a refund. Due to two bad experiences in a row I did not want to deal with this any further and I don't see how that should be a problem or hard to understand for many of us. Again, I may have just continued to work with the guy but his poor attitude just drove me to give up altogether. Some may be ok accepting the background noise even if it's as bad as what I posted but in my opinion for the price it's unacceptable. Denying there's no issue and placing the blame on your customers isn't the way to go.

[Rey]

Understood. I think you have been reasonable and I was just speculating if there might have been a miscommunication. I think you are right to return it under the circumstance.

 

I'm hoping this is just a revision issue and can be corrected with another revision and then he could offer an exchange.

 

 

Let me add that I even offered to swallow the shipping expenses and he could keep an additional $10 so out of the $96.79 I was asking for $80 back with him having the item returned he could repair and resell.

[TotOOntHeMooN]

I'm hoping this is just a revision issue and can be corrected with another revision and then he could offer an exchange.

If you have enough skill to not bend IC pins, can you do a test by removing the SP0 IC to know if the background sound is always persistant?

By the way, I think that is not too hard to find a solution... Analog audio mixing is always a pain with old systems.

Be sure that I will provide my help to fix that. First, I have to ask to Fred to send me a board to take a look.

Edited February 17, 2016 by TotOOntHeMooN

[digress]

sure i'll give it a try. I'll let you know.

 

If you have enough skill to not bend IC pins, can you do a test by removing the SP0 IC to know if the background sound is always persistant?

By the way, I think that is not too hard to find a solution... Analog audio mixing is always a pain with old systems.

Be sure that I will provide my help to fix that. First, I have to ask to Fred to send me a board to take a look.

[Ikrananka]

Rey is far from alone with this issue and I think it's about time that I also make public my experience with the Speech Game Module and with juice2839. I also hope some of the others will speak up even if it is only to acknowledge that they too have the same noise issue.

I received my Speech Game Module last week and only got round to testing it over the weekend. However, I immediately noticed some sound issues in that there is a continuous background noise, kind of like a crackling/buzzing, that is clearly audible at normal volume. This occurs throughout title screens of games and is still audible during game play when game sounds/music are being played. The nature and tone of the sounds change as the graphics on the screen change.

I did comparative tests by swapping the Speech Game Module with my Opcode SGM and found that with the latter the crackling/buzzing completely vanished, e.g. during periods of silence there was indeed complete silence with the SGM compared to buzzing/crackling with the Juice product. I also noticed that the tone and quality of the game sounds and music from Opcode's SGM sounded much better (richer perhaps) than from the Speech Game Module.

The above tests were done in a CV that has a modern (2010+) internal power supply and 5-11under's component video mod. To ensure that this wasn't an issue specific to this CV I also tested the Speech Game Module and Opcode's SGM in a stock CV with external power supply brick. The results were exactly the same.

Having used my Opcode SGM for years, I was taken aback at how bad the Speech Game Module sounded. Particularly as it was being marketed as an SGM on steroids, i.e. full SGM functionality plus speech. Personally, I found the noises to be highly distracting and annoying and would never use the unit as-is. So I decided to contact juice for a resolution.

However, before contacting juice I wanted to see if other buyers had had a similar experience or not. This way I could at least let juice know if this was likely a fault with my unit alone or if it was a much bigger problem. Through my conversations with other buyers the problem appears to be endemic. I have not found a single person who is not experiencing the sound issues. Some of these individuals had already been in contact with juice and one of them (not Rey) reported to me that juice told him that "the Speech Chip is the culprit for the line noise". Juice also told him that "he was looking into seeing if anything could be done, but didn't sound too confident".

So, I started a conversation with juice to ask for a refund. I offered to pay for return shipping and that I would also swallow the original shipping costs to me so that he would not be out of pocket. He could then resell the unit with or without a fix. However, juice immediately replied with an outright lie:

• "I have not heard of any issues aside from a couple people using bad mods on there Adams or Colecovisions causing some problems. I'd be happy to test out the unit and see if it indeed has some problems." (my emphasis)

After several more messages it became clear that juice would not honour my request for a refund, instead continuously pushing me to send it to him for "testing". He stuck by his lie that there were no known problems....until his last message:

• "The issue appears to be an artifact of 80's technology and not a design or production defect."

Errm - I beg to differ. If this unit was designed to work solely on 80's technology units then it should be designed to work with them. If there was an "artifact" of the technology that causes an issue then this should have been highlighted to buyers before being sold. I challenged juice as to why he has not contacted buyers or made this issue public seeing as it is rife and he has clearly been aware of it for some time. His response was:

• "I don't have a problem with posting that an issue may be present, but I need to investigate what the problem is first."

That seems to be fair enough - however he has known about the issue now for some time but when a customer contacts him about it he either denies that any problem exists or passes blame on the technology it is supposed to be designed to operate with and enhance. The silence from juice publicly admitting that there is an issue is deafening.

Despite my repeated, and polite, requests to obtain a refund, one that would result in juice not being out of pocket for any shipping, he consistently refused and continued to lie about the issue. I therefore have taken this to a PayPal dispute which he is ungraciously fighting. I will never support juice in any further products he may produce - I just don't trust him and I believe he is a discredit to both the CV and AA communities.

Edited February 17, 2016 by Ikrananka

[TotOOntHeMooN]

sure i'll give it a try. I'll let you know.

OK!

[VectorGamer]

I bought a Juice SGM as well. The only complaint I had was all that I got was the board when my impression was that it would've been mounted in one of those Famicom carts as was shown in all the pix I have seen. Maybe I missed something I don't know. Anyways, I contacted Juice and he sent me two Famicom carts free of charge. He said the board would just drop in the Famicom case but I didn't find that possible without altering the case in some way. Oh well, the Famicom carts ended up in my next box of crap. So, I was disappointed that he didn't go the extra step and mount in the Famicom case for me.

 

I did a video of Galaga using the Juice SGM which I have not edited yet. It'll probably be up tomorrow so you guys can watch it and see if you notice any audio problems. I did not notice anything out of the ordinary to be honest so we'll see upon further inspection.

[TPR]

Not taking any sides here, but why can't people give opinions? Did you expect to post your story and to have zero response to it? No one's involved in it other than you and Fred, so only the two of you can comment on it?

 

I think that because TotOOnthHeMooN only seems to post in threads that Fred are involved with, mostly coming to his defense making extremely judgmental or obnoxious comments towards whoever might be challenging Fred makes it seem very suspect, and why I feel people like Eduardo & now Rey have been frustrated with this account. Take a look for yourself and you can see why it's kind of suspect.

 

If this person isn't Fred, IMO, then they must be working with each other. I have now witnessed Fred berate quite a few members of this community and I think that shows incredibly poor behavior. He even started off on the wrong foot with me, but I wiped the slate clean and gave him a second chance. Even helped fund some of his development for the drop-in CV board in the tune of over $500 because I wanted to see that project happen. What I did *NOT* fund was someone being obnoxious towards other members of this community or making a knock-off clone of a piece of hardware which appears to be mainly done out of spite.

 

That's just not cool with me, and now hearing that Fred's hardware is faulty and refusing to give refunds to several people, I strongly do not recommend supporting this guy. In fact, I think I'm going to open up a PayPal claim myself for the last $100 I gave him for my final version of the JuiceBox that I still have not received. He can keep it. I don't want it. And I don't think I want to support ANY games that use it.

 

I want to support the GOOD people of this community, not the ones that make crappy products and treat others like shit. Fred has directly attacked, taken potshots or I've heard stories of him being uncooperative to people like Eduardo, Luc, J-F, Oscar, Albert, Rey, Ikrananka, and even myself, and because of this horrible behavior I will not support Fred in any way anymore. This is just unacceptable and I would question anyone's judgement that feels it is. I don't think anyone should be trusting or buying anything from this guy. Sorry, just had to say it.

[Rey]

@ Ikrananka really sorry you're going through a similar experience to mine. Hope it all works out.

 

@VectorGamer sounds like you may have one of the good ones sir.

[AtariBrian]

No need to apologize. He is not right and has issues and lacks common people skills. His actions show just that. Its too bad quite honestly.

[TotOOntHeMooN]

TPR,

 

Please, leave me alone, I'm more borred by Opcode and you in 2 months than anymore on Internet since 20 years...

[slab0meat]

TPR - I get it, but one can't expect to post and only get responses you approve of, or whatever. The two of them post in the same places, a lot, so you know that going in....... I've followed the threads.

 

I also have an original Juice-SGM and a speech one.. but as usual with me, I'm very slow to get around to playing/testing things, so I don't know how mine are. I will try them in the next few days.

[TPR]

TPR - I get it, but one can't expect to post and only get responses you approve of, or whatever.

Totally understood. I was just trying to explain why I think that particular account's response added some additional frustration, that's all.

[digress]

Ok so, I pop it apart and removed the speech chip. Made no difference other than obviously the speech rom would not work.

 

Mine sounds very good anyways. The only sound I hear is during the initialization of the colecovision or a new game rom. I find the in game music sounds great and I compared it directly to the same games using both the SGM original & this Juicebox.

 

I also tried all with and without the speech chip and found no difference. On thexder I could not tell the difference between Original SGM and the Juicebox. Sounds identical.

 

I also tried the rom version of games on an ultimate sd cart & the original cartridge which showed no difference.

 

So works well. Little tinny background noise during startup but pretty smooth afterwards.

 

 

OK!

[+nanochess]

I've some experience in audio problems and probably it's because the ground for audio in the PCB is badly designed

This happens when the ground plane for audio isn't big enough and it's not properly separated or filtered by decoupling capacitors.

Or if the ground or audio output lines pass near data or addresses.

This can happen also with video, isn't simply a thing of throwing electronics and creating a PCB. It needs careful work.

Any person developing expansion boards for Colecovision or ADAM should be ready to account for these details and in special: test before you sell and be polite with people supporting you.

That is, once you have money from other person, you've to assume a responsability, and not shielding behind tangential remarks or accusing users.

[ed1475]

The juice speech module that I got also has the same sound problems as mentioned by Rey and Ikrananka.

 

There is a lot of sound interference when attached to an Adam. The buzzing/interference isn't as loud when attached to a Colecovision but it's still there.

 

No extra noises when using Opcode SGM.

 

juice module attached to Adam (major interference/buzzing)

 

Opcode SGM attached to Adam (no extra noise)

 

 

juice module attache to Colecovision (extra buzzing/interference noise with Atarimax especially noticeable when a game is loaded)

 

Opcode SGM - Colecovision (no extra noise)

Edited February 17, 2016 by ed1475

[NIAD]

I have also experienced the line noise/static issue with Juice's SGM on a heavily modded/refubished CV as well as an all original CV... did not test on an ADAM. On my CV, it is not as bad as I heard in Rey's videos using an ADAM, but it is still there nonetheless especially noticeable when moving around the AtariMax menus and obviously affects music and sound output quality from any game played with it attached to the system.

 

To be perfectly clear, with the Opcode SGM, I do not experience this line noise/static issue on my CVs.

[TotOOntHeMooN]

To be perfectly clear, with the Opcode SGM, I do not experience this line noise/static issue on my CVs.

The problem came from the audio amplifier required for mixing the speech IC that increase the Coleco internal noise too.

So, it is obvious that Opcode's board can't have the same side effect.

[juice2839]

I have spent the past few days fully analyzing the noise levels and signals coming from the speech game module, Coleco and Adam. Here is the technical details of that analysis. Unfortunately some people could not appreciate that it would take a little time to analyze things and demanded immediate action..

 

The colecovision and adam were designed and built in the 80's. The pcb's do not have ground planes and they are inherently noisy. If you turn up the volume on your TV with nothing plugged in you will hear the noise. They used 2 metal plates on the top and bottom to effectively make a ground plane. If those are removed the noise is worse. I suspect that is the case with some of you with more noise issues. The noise you are hearing is called buss noise. What this is .... is just what you'd think it is. It's the sound of the data and address lines changing from 1 to 0. If you listen close you can hear different frequencies and not noise actually. That's the sound of the CPU doing it's thing.

 

 

The AY-3-8912 has a low impedance output with a level of 1 VPP. When this signal is fed directly into the coleco or adam it is relatively noise free because there is no amplification and the buss noise gets drowned out. The speech chip on the other hand has a very high impedance and low output voltage. This device must be amplified. The op amp amplifies the speech chips output by a factor of 10. When this happens the buss noise is also amplified. This is not a defect in design nor a ground plain issue with the speech game module. This is inherently a problem with 80's technology. The fact is most of you probably don''t remember the 80s or maybe you were not there, but this was how the hardware ran.. Now I understand it's the 2010's and everyone expects crystal clear fiber optics quality sound..

 

There are 2 ways I see this buss noise can be reduced. one is to make sure all your ground plane metal plates are installed and your capacitors are all good on your Coleco and Adam. The second is if you are only going to use the AY sound and not the speech you can disable the op amp mixer.

 

If anyone has any questions, needs help or wants more information you can PM me. I'll do my best to help and explain.

 

I hope this clears up some concerns.

 

Thanks,

 

Fred

[Albert]

I hope this clears up some concerns.

Did you refund Rey's money yet? How many more members of the community should I allow you to insult and abuse before finally banning you from AtariAge? I'm thinking none.

 

..Al

[TPR]

Never mind. Albert said it best. And I agree with him. "None" is the correct answer.

[NIAD]

The problem came from the audio amplifier required for mixing the speech IC that increase the Coleco internal noise too.

So, it is obvious that Opcode's board can't have the same side effect.

Yes, I understood that fact when Fred explained to me what he thought the issue was in a private message. I'm not trying to jump on the badgering bandwagon here as I had already decided to keep the unit as a backup to the Opcode SGM as well as for playing games that take advantage of the speech chip.

 

One thing to note concerning this Speech Chip is that it is the same exact one used back in 1985/86 by Eve Electronics in their Speech Synthesizer/Clock Card Expansion Unit for the ADAM Computer and there is not an issue with line noise/static even when used now on an ADAM. So something was missed in the design when the Speech Chip was added to the Juice SGM and it probably has something to do with what Nanochess mentioned a couple of posts previously.

[TotOOntHeMooN]

TPR,

 

I provide technical information, no more no less.

Peoples known that I'm not Fred, so stop to perseguir me, or I will refer to a moderator. I'm not Fred. OK!

 

If he said the same technical thing that me, it is only because it is the truth.

And if you can't understand that, it is only because Opcade ask you to play this silly game for him.

 

If you have problem with Fred, it is not mine... Now, STOP!

[TotOOntHeMooN]

Yes, I understood that fact when Fred explained to me what he thought the issue was in a private message. I'm not trying to jump on the badgering bandwagon here as I had already decided to keep the unit as a backup to the Opcode SGM as well as for playing games that take advantage of the speech chip.

 

One thing to note concerning this Speech Chip is that it is the same exact one used back in 1985/86 by Eve Electronics in their Speech Synthesizer/Clock Card Expansion Unit for the ADAM Computer and there is not an issue with line noise/static even when used now on an ADAM. So something was missed in the design when the Speech Chip was added to the Juice SGM and it probably has something to do with what Nanochess mentioned a couple of posts previously.

What yu said is interresting. May be the EVE module was enough protected against that? (I dont know)

I suggest to Fred to take a look avout the EVE schematic to know how the audio mixing was done.

[juice2839]

Yes, I understood that fact when Fred explained to me what he thought the issue was in a private message. I'm not trying to jump on the badgering bandwagon here as I had already decided to keep the unit as a backup to the Opcode SGM as well as for playing games that take advantage of the speech chip.

 

One thing to note concerning this Speech Chip is that it is the same exact one used back in 1985/86 by Eve Electronics in their Speech Synthesizer/Clock Card Expansion Unit for the ADAM Computer and there is not an issue with line noise/static even when used now on an ADAM. So something was missed in the design when the Speech Chip was added to the Juice SGM and it probably has something to do with what Nanochess mentioned a couple of posts previously.

 

The EVE sits in a full metal can away from the Adam. Basically in a faraday cage. That is one way to deal with the noise produced by the Adam.

Another thing to note; I pulled out my trs80 color computer and speech sound cartridge. This uses the exact same speech and sound chip as the say game. It produced the exact same type buss noise on the trs80...

Edited February 18, 2016 by juice2839