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Coleco Chameleon .... hardware speculations?


phoenixdownita

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...

 

Using an FPGA as a console has already been done, and it is a good one too! Dirk launched this thing at CGE 2K10 and I picked one up there, I don't know why it isn't more well known than it is, pretty much does what one of the versions of the RVGS system was purported to do.

MCC_216_all_systems_Oct_2015.png

Just to cross the "t"s and dot the "i"s the MCC 216 uses a Cyclone 3 with 16K LE, so not a big FPGA.

 

EDIT: Neither the MCC 216 nor the "newer" MCC TV provide HDMI out, I surely hope the Chameleon does or it is a no starter.

Edited by phoenixdownita
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My 5 cents of speculation is that as much as i'd love to see a unique solution developed for this system only, that can use the all-important cartridge part well i realize that converting loads of indie titles to an entirely different and unique format isn't gonna happen unless salespredictions are trough the roof, and games sell systems.

I believe it will be fairly mainstream, ARM-based Android or such that can easily work with a lot of games. While this is good game-wise it also pits it up against a truckload of more or less similar systems minus the cartridge port.

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The original design was a Power PC derivative along the lines of a Super Genesis type of concept, Mike has erased that from history. The intent was not originally a high HP system with FPGAs and such. Design group #2 who remains nameless (we know each other, they are good guys but we were mutually shocked to find out socal had two different groups working) used a Beagle Bone Black and got much farther than designer #3 which of course was Carlson with allot of buzzwords installed on a dev board. So when there is talk about going back to the original design or designer, that means different things at different times.

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Can't resit .... need to ask.

 

1) what PPC derivative were you considering? What GPU?

2) are you "still" involved with the Chameleon project at all?

 

EDIT: added emphatic purple

Edited by phoenixdownita
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With FPGA coming built-in and standard in 2017 intel processors, the PC box is ready to take another leap. Intel bought out Altera for that purpose.

 

My beef with things like MCC-216 and Kevtris' contraption is that there are limitations and few amenities for things like screen printing, upping the clock speed, savestates. And instant access to disk images still requires a PC to get your SD card set-up anyways.

 

Furthermore it is a one-author gig unlike a generic box hosting mame and a collection of individual emulators. Updates would seemingly come from one source. Whereas with a PC box you have multiple avenues of getting updates and using multiple different emulators in some cases.

 

An example would be transitioning out of PCAE and Z26 and into Stella. Or looking how MAME evolved. New versions = new games and bug fixes. New emulators = new features.

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My beef with things like MCC-216 and Kevtris' contraption is that there are limitations and few amenities for things like screen printing, upping the clock speed, savestates. And instant access to disk images still requires a PC to get your SD card set-up anyways.

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How in the world do you play any modern console game then ... no screen printing built in, no tuneable clock speeds, no savestates unless the programmers put them in ... hey just like old days on old hardware ..... I don't mean to be too sarcastic but those are not really deal breakers ... nice to have for sure but without them we'll be fine (as we were bitd).

 

The fact that you need a PC to prepare an SD does not mean anything, I need soap to clean my toilet bowl still I ain't eating from it ;)

 

I hear your argument but all you are saying is BUY a x64 PC and emulate there .... I get it.

Edited by phoenixdownita
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Can't resit .... need to ask.

 

1) what PPC derivative were you considering? What GPU?

2) are you "still" involved with the Chameleon project at all?

 

EDIT: added emphatic purple

 

My involvement in the project ended when I found out through socal that his "hardware team" was working on what was supposed to be my realm. They had never been told about prior work, it turned out that we knew each other and had a pretty good laugh about it, they were off the project shortly after. At one point another RVGS team member from the very beginning was working on a similar design to mine, I never saw his work and he never saw mine but he has never been anything but honest and we chatted some about our concepts, but I mention it in case yet another person pops up claiming he was working on a 6502 then PPC system. There were allot of fishing lines in the water early on. I retained the skype call logs, texts, and such as have others. My official standing in the project ended when socal needed new prospective future profit to offer and he created a new company and transferred the assets into it and began operating under that new company, there are allot of stakeholders in this thing at many layers. At this point I will hold onto my design because the work was done under the understanding it was part of the RVGS project and the standing of that is very questionable.

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My official standing in the project ended when socal needed new prospective future profit to offer and he created a new company and transferred the assets into it and began operating under that new company, there are allot of stakeholders in this thing at many layers. At this point I will hold onto my design because the work was done under the understanding it was part of the RVGS project and the standing of that is very questionable.

 

Agreements like these are not a one way street. I understand your caution but if Mike erased your stake in his project then you don't have any obligation to him. Same as Kevtris.

 

Speaking of Kevtris, I'd love to see him go head to head on Kickstarter against the Coleco Chameleon. Just enclose his board in a simple 3D printed box with an SD slot, then add stretch goals for each classic cartridge port. That would be pretty cool to see.

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I have no idea what will be in the Coleco Chameleon. I'm anxious to see what does end up being housed in the Jaguar shell in the end. We've seen the jaguar itself and a very interesting looking dental camera housed in the shell, I want to see the third incarnation. I want to know what the specs are and who will be making games on it. I want to know the price point. I would be lying if I said I wasn't looking forward to the kickstarter. I am not the target audience for this thing but there are clearly people out there who are.

 

I can say that I do know what won't be in the jaguar shell...an Ouya.

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Comment deleted to avoid derailing an otherwise decent discussion. I wish them well, but am skeptical if they can pull it off. Like Leods said, I'll just follow this but not post my opins on the matter.

So in respect to all that, and to the fact I won't pretend I have different views to what I actually have on a specific Topic, I'll just not post anymore.

Edited by Primordial Stardust
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If it does this, I will consider buying. If it's able to do this, someone could, in theory, hack a multicart into existence.

Neostore did a Multicart for the AES. I imagine someone will do a multicart or an everdrive type board / cart for the Chameleon. The only reason an everdrive for the AES doesn't exist is due to how expensive it would be to manufacture. As for the jaguar, krikzz didn't feel the console had enough of a demand to create and everdrive for it. That's another discussion entirely though.

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To be quite honest, it really doesn't matter what kind of hardware or software this thing uses. What everyone should be asking is "How will it be profitable, where/how will it be sold, will I get any value out of donating to the Kickstarter?" I only donate money to a Kickstarter if I think it will work. Donating on nostalgia or if the guy is a good person is a good way to get screwed.

 

Look, a cart-based system will have a very small audience in the first place. And if it's just another version of what's already available, then that audience will be even smaller. I predict that no money will be made and the people who donated money will regret it. I bought myself a Fire TV gaming version for Christmas and there is no way in hell that this thing will be better than that.

Edited by MCHufnagel
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There's too much belief in the notion that nostalgia for old videogames is going to turn into a culture-shaping art like in the 80's. Too much belief in that they will become widespread enough to make a profit from. I just don't see it happening.

 

The time has come and gone for cartridges or dedicated single-game consoles to be a kid's intro to the world of videogaming. Phablets serve that purpose now. Cartridges aren't necessary anymore these days. Cartridges were a product of a technical limitation of the day. Just like computers being big were a feature of the day. Both of which the general population isn't interested in.

 

Smartphones and tablets are the new gaming platforms for smaller retro-styled games. The big screen at home is reserved for real movies or large expansive & sweeping games.

 

Anything not fitting into those two scenarios can be picked up by any one of existing android microconsoles.

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There's too much belief in the notion that nostalgia for old videogames is going to turn into a culture-shaping art like in the 80's. Too much belief in that they will become widespread enough to make a profit from. I just don't see it happening.

.....

But then things like Flashback, RetronN or any other NES/SNES/MD clones around would have no sense and yet they are aplenty.

Not the same as what the Chameleon plans to be I guess, but the "nostalgia as a business" seems to be alive .... not sure how much it is kicking but AtGames has a new version for Atari and MD Flashbacks every year or so (no actual carts I know).

 

The cart thing seems to serve the RetroN 5 pretty well in circumventing legal troubles for now, the RetroFreak is almost giving away with it (they are still there, the connectors I mean, but not necessary).

 

It may not be "culture-shaping" but given the number of contenders there's something to it obviously.

 

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Smartphones and tablets are the new gaming platforms for smaller retro-styled games. The big screen at home is reserved for real movies or large expansive & sweeping games.

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I am afraid this to be the real elephant in the room, but I for one never warmed up to "touch" based games and I don't think the Chameleon wants to compete with that .... but I see how diverting developers from that market is hard.

 

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Anything not fitting into those two scenarios can be picked up by any one of existing android microconsoles.

Maybe, but then again they keep on making new ones so what's to say that one more would be a bad thing.

Edited by phoenixdownita
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The era for vintage cartridge based video game nostalgia I feel is rapidly drawing to a close. I really believe the interest in that era of games is being artificially inflated by social media and a few other current trends that will be dying off in the not too distant future. The reasons for that, to boil it down to the most basic would be the rapid expansion of social experience minimizing common denominators through societal demographics. This will make marketing Nostalgia a much more difficult and less fruitful prospect in the future. I think that in part plays to why we see so much of it now, as industry is trying to grab as much of the low hanging fruit as they can while they can, as previously in decades the ability to do so was limited, due to almost the opposite, though creating a similar environment though a different set of circumstances.

 

While on the whole, retro gaming seems to be on the rise, I also think that is still a niche within a niche. That being said I kind of feel like this is where the Chameleon has a market to shine within. I think by being able to bridge the gap from classic to retro gaming, it will be attractive to multiple markets. Now, this isn't the first console with the ability to fill that role, and doubtfully will be the last.

 

What is unique here is that the whole selling aspect seems to be set around the use of cartridge based media, That may be a brilliant idea that I'm just not fully grasping, but honestly I don't understand how it can be made profitable. The added cost and logistics to going back to a cartridge based medium, seem to far out weigh any benefit provided by having cartridges, as as far as I can tell. If I am understanding, those would be, a feeling of pleasure from having a cartridge, due in part to it harkening to a bygone ear of gaming, providing an object of (questionable) collectible value, Allowing for near instant immersion into game play due to lack of loading screens and updates.

 

It as if the project is being sold under the ideology that the medium is more important than the content. In a way that feels like someone trying to sell me a VCR that will only use a new type of cassette that will only work in the player and it will have some new release movies come out for it.

 

There lies the flaw. I don't have nostalgia for the medium because of the medium, but rather the experiences I had with the medium. While I have a soft spot for having a player and some movies I enjoyed, I can't imagine that it would be any fun or of interest to start copying my DVD collection onto VHS just so I can watch them that way.

 

So the console has a cartridge port, and they have the dies for making the cartridge shells. I think, then maybe it would be interesting to find a different use for the port and shells. I don't fully understand how all the hardware works, so maybe I'm off base when it comes to this. I feel like there is some promise in the idea of the cartridges not holding the games but rather having some other purpose, maybe as a type memory expansion or memory card, Possible it could add different features to the console, such as plug in cartridge X to add the needed expanded hardware to emulate some console system.

 

Now I'm an old curmudgeon who doesn't want to game on computer or have to deal with configuring hardware and software. The prospect of having a system that will let me play some of these retro games that are coming out, seems pretty cool. The only problem is that I pretty much already have that with a PS3 or PS4. Now, not as many of those kind of games make it there as there would be on something like Steam, but usually the top ones eventually get ported over. Again, it seems another area where the Chameleon is going to run into trouble.

 

I think in olden days it was the games that would make or break a system, though now almost everything comes out across the board. While there are some exclusives, and things like Nintendo with their love of weird ass functionality. I feel that either there are going to have to be some pretty heavy weight exclusive games for the Chameleon, or they are going to have to sell us on the hardware aspect of the system.

 

So speculation on the hardware to me is quite interesting. I don't fully understand everything that is being talked about and some of the terms being used but I find I'm learning a fair bit about what can and can't be done. Maybe it is just me then, but at this point I can't understand what the hardware could be that will separate the Chameleon from the plethora of other set top boxes, aside from cartridge based media. If I'm wrong about that then I would very much like someone to explain it to me, as I've become quite puzzled after reading about potential hardware and the devices already on the market.

 

In short, I don't understand what kind of hardware could be in it that would make the Chameleon overcome the pitfalls that I (maybe wrongfully) see set out before it and cause it to shine above current and expected upcoming competition.

Edited by TheClassyGamer
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Furthermore it is a one-author gig unlike a generic box hosting mame and a collection of individual emulators. Updates would seemingly come from one source. Whereas with a PC box you have multiple avenues of getting updates and using multiple different emulators in some cases.

 

Actually the MiST FPGA has many cores that were created/ported and are now maintained by other people than the original designer of the board (Till Harbaum). In particular the CPC, Amiga, PC Engine, and Atari 800/5200 cores are all projects run by individual people. Others were ported from the TC64 or FPGA Arcade boards, sometimes by Till but a few others as well.

 

These cores were all done in open source, and the hardware itself is fully documented (with parts lists) so anybody with the knowledge could continue the work should the original authors give up on the projects or the board. In my view this is as good as having a PC + individual projects.

 

The MCC216 has a bit of a bad reputation because they didn't publish their modifications of other people cores. But they also have some cores ported by other people (Atari 800/5200 for instance).

Edited by Newsdee
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how can they announce games when they don't even know what their hardware base is?

 

the cycle keeps repeating itself

 

I'm sure Mike knows pretty much exactly what this system is gonna be at this point, but he's only telling those absolutely closest to him... it's been quite the shit show.

 

Part of me thinks this is smart... keep everything quiet, plop down your second master plan and see if people like it. Yet, withholding this information from the target audience when you're a pretty small operation can bite you in the ass as well. To avoid negativity, he's keeping quiet, but the last time they kept quiet and wanted to go with a $300-$350 product, they failed and it took a shit storm to, I'm assuming, bring Mike back down to earth on his pricing and see that at best his creation is going to be a budget product... I'm hoping he sees this, at least. If the cartridges are expensive, he's just as dead in the water before.

 

As I've been around this insanity since almost the beginning, plus I had a legit interest in the console beforehand (even if it was just to make me spend money for nothing), I don't know why Mike didn't find 100 or so random fans and send them a poll asking how much would you be willing to pay for the system, how much for carts, what do you want to see, do you want this thing to be online, etc like any normal business does to get real feedback. I'm very sure many great retro Youtubers would have been happy to offer their opinions, plus random people you find contacting you on Twitter, forums, etc.

 

I don't know what's possible or what the price points will be, but it's gonna be sad if keeping quiet shoots them in the foot when they launch at just a bit too high or price with carts that are a bit too expensive when they could have made cheaper work and inevitably lead to a third attempt or have it fail because of this. I feel bad for the guy in a way, I couldn't imagine a campaign for this type of thing going as poorly as it has and he's put some money into it, but the part of me that feels bad realizes too that he's probably totally messing up yet again with whatever he's doing. I understand Nintendo, Microsoft, Sony, etc. keeping things under wraps. But this a fundraiser and he's making a retro system. It's gonna be 1995 technology, what could he possibly tell us and not deliver on spec wise?

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I'm sure Mike knows pretty much exactly what this system is gonna be at this point, but he's only telling those absolutely closest to him... it's been quite the shit show.

 

Part of me thinks this is smart... keep everything quiet, plop down your second master plan and see if people like it.

 

that would make sense if they hadn't started shouting coleco from the rooftops.

 

also, one thing that just dawned on me... all this talk about konami... konami has pretty much said they're done making console games, and trying to focus on the mobile market. why would they decide to change that and make a game for an unreleased console? even square-enix and capcom seem to be slowing down their releases (mostly because they're broke as well). investing the time to write a game for a non-mainstream console isn't really in their budgets right now.

Edited by some_canuck
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that would make sense if they hadn't started shouting coleco from the rooftops.

 

also, one thing that just dawned on me... all this talk about konami... konami has pretty much said they're done making console games, and trying to focus on the mobile market. why would they decide to change that and make a game for an unreleased console? even square-enix and capcom seem to be slowing down their releases (mostly because they're broke as well). investing the time to write a game for a non-mainstream console isn't really in their budgets right now.

 

He's been doing that shit since day one, piggy backing on Konami, Capcom, before using the Coleco name for his console, at least that was legit though. Anyone in the know knows those companies are deader than Kelsey's nuts when it comes to the old franchises and of course will entertain him, but the likelihood of this ever happening is zero. That's part of the reason people are so angry with the whole ordeal, first it was FPGA, so every memory of every console you loved was hitting you in the face, then he's bringing up Konami and shit, but we know Konami is totally fucked right now. I'm not sure whether he can fathom it or not, but this is all misleading to people who don't know the shape Capcom or Konami are in and just think Castlevania or Mega Man would be a shoe-in for this thing. Capcom is so dumb they won't even make legit sequels on PS4/Xbox One.

 

The saddest thing is if they go with 100 MB games, there is no need for a console. Most games should be able to run on any half ass modern computer. They may as well just sell physical copies of games on USB cards. The ultimate slap in the face of the Chameleon/RVGS is the fact if the console is so weak that any shitty computer can run it, why bother with new hardware in the first place? We all could just play them on our computers already and you could still have your DRM free CIB cartridge with all the modern perks. Sad thing is this idea is a tangible one, but the only way to get press and people talking in this day and age is to do something batshit crazy - like a low quality cartridge system in 2015.

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