Coleco Chameleon .... hardware speculations?

[Flojomojo]

imagine how long we could make a console last today if we designed it with modern technology using quality parts with the intention of making it last.

 

I am way more interested in gameplay that lasts. I think that video games are for fun, not for for time capsules, and certainly not for artificial scarcity and "collect all the colors" tricks.

 

I know we have been down the "what is it good for" track over and over, but have any of the CC games shown thus far struck you as anything that needed or deserved to be preserved for fifty years or more?

 

I feel the same way about the Jaguar molds, over which which some people have expressed concern. Just because they're old and one of a kind doesn't necessarily mean they're worthy of preservation. Coffee table ends in a game museum sounds like as good a use as any.

[Schizophretard]

I know we have been down the "what is it good for" track over and over, but have any of the CC games shown thus far struck you as anything that needed or deserved to be preserved for fifty years or more?

Yes. I can't remember them all but the first one that popped in my head was Super Mario World.

[Flojomojo]

Yes. I can't remember them all but the first one that popped in my head was Super Mario World.

That's a great 25yo game, and I just bought another digital license for it so I could play on my New 3DS. I don't think that one is in much danger of being lost to the sands of time.

[Schizophretard]

That's a great 25yo game, and I just bought another digital license for it so I could play on my New 3DS. I don't think that one is in much danger of being lost to the sands of time.

Which one? Your digital license or your 3DS?

[G-type]

Listened to the Piko interview on Retro Gaming Roundup:

Some of the details about the Eli's interaction with Lee don't make much sense.

 

1) If Lee was merely an independent contractor (or an employee of a big contracting firm depending on which version you believe) why would he be acting as an agent of the CC on behalf of Mike Kennedy and trying to persuade Piko to stick with the project? That is not his job and didn't make sense.

 

2) Why is Lee sharing all this non-relevant information with Eli about how wonderful his engineering firm is? Out of the blue? Did it come up organically in the conversation? Was it relevant to questions or comments Eli had made?

 

(Honestly I had a hard time following how the conversation between Lee and Eli developed, due in part to the disjointed way Eli retold it. I could tell that the Retro gaming roundup interviewers were having difficulty following him too when they asked for clarification on what he meant by "he kept saying he was part of a company".)

 

3) Eli theorized that the deceitfulness was perpetrated by Lee, and that Mike Kennedy may have been unknowingly duped, at least in regard to Toy Fair. I don't see how that could possibly be accurate based on how the CC team has handled everything subsequently. If they were the victim of some terrible engineering firm scamming them, they wouldn't have tried to take down facebook photos, coverup what had happened, and maintain radio silence... they would have been just as outraged as anyone and taking legal action.

Edited March 5, 2016 by G-type

[sh3-rg]

This rang a bell for me, but unfortunately I couldn't find where I'd heard it before. It's hearsay, but if it's true ... Nah, never mind. These are not the molds you are looking for.

 

nothingfishyhere.PNG

So that brings up the point I raised many pages back that nobody was able to or nobody chose to answer - was gamester81 a stockholder of whichever part of the RETRO/GG/whatever empire that originally purchased the case tooling? That post suggests it might be the case, but I don't know that guy posting from (a Coleco) Adam. MK was of course, Pipercub was - but who else was a part of that group that stood to receive dividends if/when the RVGS became a thing (before the new company was created and they got sidelined)? If I knew how to I'd search some US business listing site and see if there's some mention of all interested parties. If he wasn't, and the relationship between him and MK/RETRO was purely friendship-based and he was simply helping him out by doing the RVGS infomercial interview, then it was only really the Collectorvision game sales that would have seen anything come back to him, and that's hardly a big deal or some big secret, everyone knew who he was and that his games were destined for the platform (with little to no further effort beyond making SNES games, given the proposed capabilities of the system).

 

Just seems odd that the guy says gamester81 owned the tooling.

 

That whole gamester/pat thing, I've not looked too closely, but I'd hope it fizzles out and the guys can shake and make friends 'cause it's not a good look for either side and dividing the fans is all kinds of unnecessary urgh...

[rob_ocelot]

I believe where John Carlsen is comin g from about the pay is he was on the team, under agreement he would be paid a certain amount of money for his work done. Unless his 'agreement' with Mike had a 'leave and lose it' clause Mike would still be in debt to John Carlsen for work performed aldeady- whether used or not.

 

At least that is my take on it.

 

With all the Hollywood accounting, stockholder shell-gaming and other assorted financial shennanigans that have come to light recently I doubt Carlsen would have seen a dime, even if the RVGS or CC was a success. Mike seems very flexible in both the scope and breadth of his promises -- gentlemen's agreements seem to be the order of the day and it's practically financial and legal suicide to make these sorts of vague or off the cuff promises.

 

However, what I think Carlsen is alluding to in the interview is that if the CC became a success he (and possibly others) would extract their payment from Mike in court -- hence Carlsen's mention of patents. John took his toys and left and has been waiting for Mike to take the bait and use (or claim to be using) something he developed without permission.

 

To mix metaphors here, that damn bus was never going to navigate through all the burnt bridges much less move at all because of the quantity of people thrown under it. The Chameleon was painted into a corner and screwed no matter if it became a success or not

[cybercylon]

Does anyone feel that the Coleco name will be forever tarnished if the new Coleco brand owners bungle how they handle the Chameleon disaster? (the definition of "bungle" is up to individual interpretation...)

 

If bungled, would anyone avoid future Coleco licensed products? Or will anyone care?

 

I am once again way behind on posts like anyone else, but if there are future Coleco video game products that are worth my attention, then I will take a look. Since they are just licensing the name to others at this point, it will really depend on whether or not whoever licenses the name makes something that is worth my attention.

[The Notorious MW]

 

This rang a bell for me, but unfortunately I couldn't find where I'd heard it before. It's hearsay, but if it's true ... Nah, never mind. These are not the molds you are looking for.

 

nothingfishyhere.PNG

Yeah thats the comment I was referring to. While I admittedly have zero first hand knowledge of the situation (outside of what Ive seen online) it struck me as odd. IF Gamester81 indeed is or was in possession of the molds that opens a whole different can of worms over his involvement.That comment was made May of last year, Why would he have the molds at that point? If he was just developing games for it. Unless they're a different set of molds which I find somewhat doubtful (but not completely impossible) So I gotta ask before I make a fool of myself for ignorance. Just how many Atari Jaguar molds are going around anyway? I cant imagine it's alot

[Agamemnon2]

Yeah thats the comment I was referring to. While I admittedly have zero first hand knowledge of the situation (outside of what Ive seen online) it struck me as odd. IF Gamester81 indeed is or was in possession of the molds that opens a whole different can of worms over his involvement.That comment was made May of last year, Why would he have the molds at that point? If he was just developing games for it. Unless they're a different set of molds which I find somewhat doubtful (but not completely impossible) So I gotta ask before I make a fool of myself for ignorance. Just how many Atari Jaguar molds are going around anyway? I cant imagine it's alot

Or maybe this Larry guy was just wrong? He misunderstood something told to him thirdhand, etc.

[Flojomojo]

Which one? Your digital license or your 3DS?

Neither, because it's the game that is important.

 

I can look beyond my specific circumstance at this point in time. I've had a lot of game machines, some of which I've kept, many of which I have let go. There will always be more games to play than time to enjoy them. I don't feel the need to get overly hung up on game "stuff" any more than I hoard newspapers as if I'll read them someday.

 

The game is the important thing, and it will survive whether or not it exists on a cartridge, paid digital download, or ROM distributed against the wishes and copyright of Nintendo.

 

I have zero problem with giving Nintendo the price of a nice beer every five years so I can play my favorite games in a different format that is convenient to me. I still have the SNES cartridge, the equivalent of a vinyl record album that I can't take on the road.

 

TL;DR Cartridges are stupid and getting hung up on "ownership" is a losing game. Pay for software you like, even if you've "already bought it before."

[Newsdee]

That's a great 25yo game, and I just bought another digital license for it so I could play on my New 3DS. I don't think that one is in much danger of being lost to the sands of time.

 

It's funny how often the killer titles on a console are super common (not that I'm complaning). But for every gem there are probably five to ten lemons out there...

[sh3-rg]

Listened to the Piko interview on Retro Gaming Roundup:

Some of the details about the Eli's interaction with Lee don't make much sense.

The main thing there was I was expecting some massive DAMN SON moment where the Piko guy really busted him... it seemed to build up to that for most of the interview and then... nothing. ¯\_(ヅ)_/¯

 

2) Why is Lee sharing all this non-relevant information with Eli about how wonderful his engineering firm is? Out of the blue? Did it come up organically in the conversation? Was it relevant to questions or comments Eli had made?

There was a mass of stuff thrown at Eli from "Lee", I'm sure it was entirely deliberate with a goal in mind. Conmen use various psychological tricks to help bolster their setups. Mentioning all the facilities around him and the work schedule etc. etc. was all designed to make Eli feel out of this depth and in a much inferior position to Lee. Time-pressure requiring the subject to act without thinking is another trait of the scammer. And the fake "talking behind Mike's back" is classic stuff to get someone on side. The fact that he outright said those kinds of "you're just some little dev guy" things when the going got tough kind of shows he was a bit of a crappy scammer. Why any of that was necessary though... NFI!

 

3) Eli theorized that the deceitfulness was perpetrated by Lee, and that Mike Kennedy may have been unknowingly duped, at least in regard to Toy Fair. I don't see how that could possibly be accurate based on how the CC team has handled everything subsequently. If they were the victim of some terrible engineering firm scamming them, they wouldn't have tried to take down facebook photos, coverup what had happened, and maintain radio silence... they would have been just as outraged as anyone and taking legal action.

For me it's not entirely implausible that Mike has fallen victim to "Lee". The kinds of personality traits that the people who know him best (UKMike and Pipercub) suggest, leave me feeling that, at least to some degree, the utterly shifty goings on might not entirely be down to the actions Mike Kennedy - not exactly deliberately or knowingly. Then again it could have been an MK/Lee tag-team job

 

However, what I think Carlsen is alluding to in the interview is that if the CC became a success he (and possibly others) would extract their payment from Mike in court -- hence Carlsen's mention of patents.

Carlsen isn't new to that kind of stuff - take a look at the legal battles he's been involved with regarding websites and use of a company name.

Edited March 5, 2016 by sh3-rg

[InnovaX5]

I can't tell you how many digital copies of Zelda, Final Fantasy, Castlevania, Mario and River City Ransom that I own digitally. I don't have issues with ponying up the money for a game I love, ever. I'm a sucker through and through for re-releases on a newer generation console or HD remasters / collections too. I own so many copies of the Resident Evil series that it would scare people. Mega Man as well, though I'd yet to pick up the Legacy Collection that they put out recently.

 

My point to this thread is, it's true, nothing mike showed off for the Chameleon was unique to it. I guess, Tiny Knight was at the start but I was so unimpressed by it that that it made me question the point to the console even more. Dorke and Ymp is a fantastic game but it's already available on Super Nintendo and I believe Steam. Which, I'm convinced Steam will exist in 30 years anyway and I'm damn sure the super nintendo cartridge will still function.

[triverse]

Yeah thats the comment I was referring to. While I admittedly have zero first hand knowledge of the situation (outside of what Ive seen online) it struck me as odd. IF Gamester81 indeed is or was in possession of the molds that opens a whole different can of worms over his involvement.That comment was made May of last year, Why would he have the molds at that point? If he was just developing games for it. Unless they're a different set of molds which I find somewhat doubtful (but not completely impossible) So I gotta ask before I make a fool of myself for ignorance. Just how many Atari Jaguar molds are going around anyway? I cant imagine it's alot

Considering Atari was probably not producing just one complete Jaguar shell at a time back when it was in production, I would assume there are many sets of the molds. According to the "wonderful" Wikipedia, the Jaguar sold less than 250,000 units over about three years. Anyone know how long it takes to pop out a full Jaguar shell, at least as "full" as Mike can do it?

[The Notorious MW]

Or maybe this Larry guy was just wrong? He misunderstood something told to him thirdhand, etc.

Maybe but I do feel like we need someone to clear this point up regardless

[Flojomojo]

With all the Hollywood accounting, stockholder shell-gaming and other assorted financial shennanigans that have come to light recently I doubt Carlsen would have seen a dime, even if the RVGS or CC was a success. Mike seems very flexible in both the scope and breadth of his promises -- gentlemen's agreements seem to be the order of the day and it's practically financial and legal suicide to make these sorts of vague or off the cuff promises.

 

I'm pretty naive to the world of business, but what's with all the separate "companies," anyway? Is it just to avoid personal financial or legal responsibility if things fail? Tax shelter or other technical gimmicks? It all seems needlessly complex to me, and possibly overly concerned with seeming grownup, professional, or serious. They got the big picture so incredibly wrong, so I wonder how deep the sickness goes.

 

Does anyone have a clue about the amounts of money involved with this thing? Just ballpark/orders of magnitude would be interesting to know.

 

The RETRO magazine, which actually produced a product, was in the tens of thousands of dollars range for printing/mailing and what I presume are paying writers and editors.

[sh3-rg]

Considering Atari was probably not producing just one complete Jaguar shell at a time back when it was in production, I would assume there are many sets of the molds. According to the "wonderful" Wikipedia, the Jaguar sold less than 250,000 units over about three years. Anyone know how long it takes to pop out a full Jaguar shell, at least as "full" as Mike can do it?

 

There's some machines that can chuck out smaller parts 30 times a minute.

 

Edited March 5, 2016 by sh3-rg

[Raticon]

What? Did this David Giltinan fellow over at RETRO magazine quit his job now or did i misunderstand something?

[UKMike]

The Retro Gaming Roundup podcast is a must listen, absolutely fascinating.

 

I hope Pat & Ian listen to it before their next CUPodcast.

Point them to it

[UKMike]

As far as I know only 1 set of jag molds exist and are not complete as there is no controller mold.

 

They were bought by Mike for around $6,000.

[PlaysWithWolves]

Considering Atari was probably not producing just one complete Jaguar shell at a time back when it was in production, I would assume there are many sets of the molds. According to the "wonderful" Wikipedia, the Jaguar sold less than 250,000 units over about three years. Anyone know how long it takes to pop out a full Jaguar shell, at least as "full" as Mike can do it?

 

This is only one half of the shell, and buttons and light tubes (whatever they are) are separate, but:

 

[Flojomojo]

As far as I know only 1 set of jag molds exist and are not complete as there is no controller mold.

 

They were bought by Mike for around $6,000.

I would have given Mike $6,000 to shut up and go away if it could have prevented this farce from happening.

[PlaysWithWolves]

I'm pretty naive to the world of business, but what's with all the separate "companies," anyway? Is it just to avoid personal financial or legal responsibility if things fail? Tax shelter or other technical gimmicks? It all seems needlessly complex to me, and possibly overly concerned with seeming grownup, professional, or serious. They got the big picture so incredibly wrong, so I wonder how deep the sickness goes.

 

It sounded like UKMike and Pipercub were completely shut out by the formation of a new company.

It sounded rather similar to how Mark Zuckerberg apparently cut one of the original Facebook founders from that company:

 

 

His plan: Reduce [Eduardo] Saverin's stake in TheFacebook.com by creating a new company, a Delaware corporation, to acquire the old company (the Florida LLC formed in April), and then distribute new shares in the new company to everybody but Saverin. Mark discussed this plan with confidants over IM several times.

Here's one instance:

Confidant: How are you going to get around Eduardo?

 

Zuckerberg: I'm going to buy the LLC

 

Zuckerberg: And then give him less shares in the company that bought it

 

Confidant: I'm not sure it's worth a potential lawsuit just to redistribute shares. You have nothing to gain.

 

Zuckerberg: No I do because until I do this I need to run everything by Eduardo. After this I have control

In another, Mark writes:

"Eduardo is refusing to co-operate at all…We basically now need to sign over our intellectual property to a new company and just take the lawsuit…I'm just going to cut him out and then settle with him. And he'll get something I'm sure, but he deserves something…He has to sign stuff for investments and he's lagging and I can't take the lag."

Zuckerberg pulled the trigger, sending an email to his lawyer telling him to put the plan into effect.

In this previously unpublished email, Zuckerberg writes of Saverin: "Is there a way to do this without making it painfully apparent to him that he's being diluted to 10%?"

[Reaperman]