Coleco Chameleon .... hardware speculations?

[AtarinDave]

I know that this is from a few pages back but I have to say...

 

I am genuinely sick to fucking death of talking about this nonsense. As people who have been covering this since the announcement of the RVGS we sort of had to follow up here but boy howdy... can this please stay buried? =D

 

At this point I'm ready for 18 more amiibo segments... =P

 

 

Why don't we look at this in awe for a while?

[ianoid]

So all that you got from the thread is that Mike did a "business mistake" .... and internet is Mean and Al is profiting (image or otherwise) from that.

 

You are so weird! Awesome!

[+phoenixdownita]

 

You are so weird! Awesome!

I am less and less surprised you took a defensive stance on Mike.

With "friends" like you who needs enemies.

 

EDIT: I got carried away, I have no beef with this ianoid, whoever he/she may be.

[wf_]

 

It's always game on, on the Internet.

 

Just saying, I know Mike personally. I've met him, traded with him, talked with him on the phone, mostly around 2002-2003. If I look at this from the perspective of a person I know, even as a friend, rather than as an Internet person I don't know, I'm willing to say what positive things I can, rather than sharpen the axe with so many others.

 

I'm not making any judgement about truth or culpability.

 

The retro gaming roundup guys talked about this at length. They've been a lot closer to Mike through this whole time. They say the old Mike is gone and replaced with Business Mike, and unfortunately it looks like that's there to stay. Their words really match with what's been going on, and I believe their assessment is current and correct.

[+GoldLeader]

I don't think there's anything wrong with being supportive or trying Not To Partake of the negativity that is The Internet.

 

But this situation strikes me as More that people want someone (MK in this case) to take responsibility for his actions. Kind of like when you know someone is lying but you don't want to make a scene. Or at work, there was this guy who lied constantly and nobody called him on it, because nobody wanted to have to take a trip to HR...The Internet allows you to speak up without fear of causing a scene...

 

That said, if you read comments elsewhere on the internet...Let's say Yahoo for instance...The violent people, the racism, the death threats, etc. make Atari Age look more like they've got someone's best interests at heart and they're giving him a hard time, having a little fun at his expense, and maybe cracking me up the whole time...

 

and a lot of people on here did try to help MK earlier in time...I believe (at first anyway) he responded not by saying thanks but by calling them haters...

[+GoldLeader]

 

 

Why don't we look at this in awe for a while?

 

Thanks for the pic AtarinDave!

 

It has calmed me and made me happy!

[AtarinDave]

 

Thanks for the pic AtarinDave!

 

It has calmed me and made me happy!

 

Glad to hear, I may want to get myself a Darth Vader model.

[Clay Cowgill]

(Black hole... of ... stupidity... sucking me... back... in....)

 

In the email Mike sent me (from Sean), it said Sean was Mike's new CTO. (Chief Technology Officer) That's a corporate officer, so he's going to have an employment contract. If Sean was working on anything for Mike that would require compensation in addition to the terms set forth in his contract (or after it expired or was canceled), there should be additional documentation supporting that (Scope of Work, contract with deliverables/dates/payment terms, etc.) The fact that Mike is more interested in trying to mount a smear campaign and paint himself as the victim than actually posting said contracts and demonstrating what wasn't done per the agreement(s) is suspicious to me.

 

The memo lines of those checks said "prototyping", "hardware design", "product development", those are all activities, not an 'item'. If Sean was charging ~$150/hr (to use a ballpark hardware design engineering number) as "time and materials" for development even if he didn't get a single thing to work there's no recourse unless there's a contract that says the work has to meet a performance standard to merit payment (or if there was a 'claw back' should some ultimate goal not be met) -- but if that were the case it's just a contract dispute. Trying to blame everyone else is just a good way to make sure no other reputable people will ever agree to work with you again...

 

There's absolutely nothing wrong with making 'mock-ups' for demonstrations, photo-shoots, etc. Stuff built in model shops (used to be with wood, now 3D prints) and displayed as "mock-up/prototype/not final design" at trade-shows, press tours, etc. is still super common-- where it gets sketchy is in *how* it's used, but that burden falls on the 'presenter', not the fabricator.

 

If you don't have contracts and SOWs and schedules and documented deliverables and milestones and performance plans and corrective action plans, probably the last thing you should be doing is asking for other people to give you money because you have no business running a significant hardware development project in the first place.

I think Mike was lucky. Had he succeeded in getting Kickstarter funding I bet two years down the road the money would all be gone and there'd be nothing ready to ship and he'd be in FAR worse trouble when the backers came out with torches and pitchforks wanting their $2M back... Maybe he should be thanking those he blames for saving him from himself!

 

-Clay

[+phoenixdownita]

(Black hole... of ... stupidity... sucking me... back... in....)

 

In the email Mike sent me (from Sean), it said Sean was Mike's new CTO. (Chief Technology Officer) That's a corporate officer, so he's going to have an employment contract. If Sean was working on anything for Mike that would require compensation in addition to the terms set forth in his contract (or after it expired or was canceled), there should be additional documentation supporting that (Scope of Work, contract with deliverables/dates/payment terms, etc.) The fact that Mike is more interested in trying to mount a smear campaign and paint himself as the victim than actually posting said contracts and demonstrating what wasn't done per the agreement(s) is suspicious to me.

 

The memo lines of those checks said "prototyping", "hardware design", "product development", those are all activities, not an 'item'. If Sean was charging ~$150/hr (to use a ballpark hardware design engineering number) as "time and materials" for development even if he didn't get a single thing to work there's no recourse unless there's a contract that says the work has to meet a performance standard to merit payment (or if there was a 'claw back' should some ultimate goal not be met) -- but if that were the case it's just a contract dispute. Trying to blame everyone else is just a good way to make sure no other reputable people will ever agree to work with you again...

 

There's absolutely nothing wrong with making 'mock-ups' for demonstrations, photo-shoots, etc. Stuff built in model shops (used to be with wood, now 3D prints) and displayed as "mock-up/prototype/not final design" at trade-shows, press tours, etc. is still super common-- where it gets sketchy is in *how* it's used, but that burden falls on the 'presenter', not the fabricator.

 

If you don't have contracts and SOWs and schedules and documented deliverables and milestones and performance plans and corrective action plans, probably the last thing you should be doing is asking for other people to give you money because you have no business running a significant hardware development project in the first place.

 

I think Mike was lucky. Had he succeeded in getting Kickstarter funding I bet two years down the road the money would all be gone and there'd be nothing ready to ship and he'd be in FAR worse trouble when the backers came out with torches and pitchforks wanting their $2M back... Maybe he should be thanking those he blames for saving him from himself!

 

-Clay

Nicely put. And without even needing to bring back the RVGS and pre-RVGS stories as circumstantial evidence of a pattern of wrongdoings.

[leathco]

Ianoid, while others may disagree with your opinion, don't let others get ya down.

 

Personally, I really am starting to think Mike was so set on the finished product, and wanted it so bad, that he couldn't see, or even comprehend, what was going on around him. Everything was sacrificed for the end product, and in the end, it cost him everything.

 

However, as the lead of the product, even if he was scammed, he is still responsible for the actions of everyone on the project. So no matter what, its still all on his head. The fact that poor decisions were made directly by him as leader doesn't help matters. That being said, I hope things get better for him. Hoping he finds a way to turn the mag around, and even if he can't, at a minimum, I hope this experience taught him lessons that will help him down the road.

 

Also, Al, any idea on pricing for the system and cart shells? Might use them for a raspberry pi project in kicking around.

 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G530A using Tapatalk

Edited April 10, 2016 by leathco

[AtarinDave]

Ianoid, while others may disagree with your opinion, don't let others get ya down.

 

Personally, I really am starting to think Mike was so set on the finished product, and wanted it so bad, that he couldn't see, or even comprehend, what was going on around him. Everything was sacrificed for the end product, and in the end, it cost him everything.

 

However, as the lead of the product, even if he was scammed, he is still responsible for the actions of everyone on the project. So no matter what, its still all on his head. The fact that poor decisions were made directly by him as leader doesn't help matters. That being said, I hope things get better for him. Hoping he finds a way to turn the mag around, and even if he can't, at a minimum, I hope this experience taught him lessons that will help him down the road.

 

Also, Al, any idea on pricing for the system and cart shells? Might use them for a raspberry pi project in kicking around.

 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G530A using Tapatalk

 

Yeah, I agree with you. I do wish the best for him, but I hope he will soon do the right thing and tell us the whole truth, and an apology. But hey, I don't hate the man, he made horrible decisions, and screwed up hard, but I don't hate him.

[wf_]

Just a few clarifications:

 

(Black hole... of ... stupidity... sucking me... back... in....)

 

In the email Mike sent me (from Sean), it said Sean was Mike's new CTO. (Chief Technology Officer) That's a corporate officer, so he's going to have an employment contract. If Sean was working on anything for Mike that would require compensation in addition to the terms set forth in his contract (or after it expired or was canceled), there should be additional documentation supporting that (Scope of Work, contract with deliverables/dates/payment terms, etc.) The fact that Mike is more interested in trying to mount a smear campaign and paint himself as the victim than actually posting said contracts and demonstrating what wasn't done per the agreement(s) is suspicious to me.

 

The only Officers of a corporation are those listed in the Articles of Incorporation (President, Vice President, Secretary, Treasurer, etc), which could be public record, depending on the state. Anybody can be given any title they want in the company otherwise, including the C-level popular titles. They're just words that can be freely thrown around without any legal backing, and if Sean has the history claimed here, he would be certain not to actually sign anything while verbally agreeing to everything.

 

 

 

The memo lines of those checks said "prototyping", "hardware design", "product development", those are all activities, not an 'item'. If Sean was charging ~$150/hr (to use a ballpark hardware design engineering number) as "time and materials" for development even if he didn't get a single thing to work there's no recourse unless there's a contract that says the work has to meet a performance standard to merit payment (or if there was a 'claw back' should some ultimate goal not be met) -- but if that were the case it's just a contract dispute. Trying to blame everyone else is just a good way to make sure no other reputable people will ever agree to work with you again...

 

 

Memo lines are also not legally binding, and don't represent an agreement between parties. (I know this isn't necessarily what you're implying, but for the benefit of everyone)

 

Also, the realm of a few thousand dollars certainly doesn't smell of actual hourly billing, task estimation, etc. It's most likely just a number "Mr. Lee" pulled out of the air that he thought Mike would be willing to part with.

 

I really don't think Mike's going to win any legal case. I'm certain it was just an oral arrangement, and Sean did deliver literal mockups and a playable system for the toy fair, and was compensated as apparently agreed. Mike's words have been captured here over time and lawyers from both sides will certainly be poring over this thread if it ever comes to that, especially as media articles point right back here. But Mike can certainly push this into the courts without many barriers, if he can find a lawyer amenable to the case. I also suspect that most lawyers will simply tell him he's screwed.

[CGQuarterly]

I know that this is from a few pages back but I have to say...

 

I am genuinely sick to fucking death of talking about this nonsense. As people who have been covering this since the announcement of the RVGS we sort of had to follow up here but boy howdy... can this please stay buried? =D

 

At this point I'm ready for 18 more amiibo segments... =P

If you eat the "all natural" peanut butter, meaning that it doesn't have emulsifying agents, then you have to either keep it in the fridge or you have to stand there mixing it like crazy every time you want to use it. I mean, if you eat Skippy or JIF or whatever then that's totally cool, but there's a reason why some people put their PB in the fridge.

[+phoenixdownita]

If you eat the "all natural" peanut butter, meaning that it doesn't have emulsifying agents, then you have to either keep it in the fridge or you have to stand there mixing it like crazy every time you want to use it. I mean, if you eat Skippy or JIF or whatever then that's totally cool, but there's a reason why some people put their PB in the fridge.

I am sure I don't get it, and it bugs me as it makes me feel stupid (which sometimes I am).

Care to translate the PB analogy?

[CGQuarterly]

I am sure I don't get it, and it bugs me as it makes me feel stupid (which sometimes I am).

Care to translate the PB analogy?

There's no analogy at all. I'm just saying; there's a reason why people put peanut butter in the fridge. When you come out as "anti-PB-in-the-fridge" all I hear you saying is "I've never eaten anything but Skippy." Skippy is was the shit back in the day, but I don't eat it anymore for the same reason that I don't eat Cookie Crisp Cereal or Fun Dip.

[AtarinDave]

There's no analogy at all. I'm just saying; there's a reason why people put peanut butter in the fridge. When you come out as "anti-PB-in-the-fridge" all I hear you saying is "I've never eaten anything but Skippy." Skippy is was the shit back in the day, but I don't eat it anymore for the same reason that I don't eat Cookie Crisp Cereal or Fun Dip.

Little random O- O. Unless there's something I missed.

[CGQuarterly]

Ian knows what I'm talking about.

[Clay Cowgill]

The only Officers of a corporation are those listed in the Articles of Incorporation (President, Vice President, Secretary, Treasurer, etc), which could be public record, depending on the state. Anybody can be given any title they want in the company otherwise, including the C-level popular titles. They're just words that can be freely thrown around without any legal backing, and if Sean has the history claimed here, he would be certain not to actually sign anything while verbally agreeing to everything.

 

Memo lines are also not legally binding, and don't represent an agreement between parties. (I know this isn't necessarily what you're implying, but for the benefit of everyone)

 

Also, the realm of a few thousand dollars certainly doesn't smell of actual hourly billing, task estimation, etc. It's most likely just a number "Mr. Lee" pulled out of the air that he thought Mike would be willing to part with.

 

I really don't think Mike's going to win any legal case. I'm certain it was just an oral arrangement, and Sean did deliver literal mockups and a playable system for the toy fair, and was compensated as apparently agreed. Mike's words have been captured here over time and lawyers from both sides will certainly be poring over this thread if it ever comes to that, especially as media articles point right back here. But Mike can certainly push this into the courts without many barriers, if he can find a lawyer amenable to the case. I also suspect that most lawyers will simply tell him he's screwed.

 

Yeah, my intent was more along the lines of "if you have the prerequisite knowledge to run a successful business"-- if you appoint someone above a director level, you should have an employment contract. If you're hiring and paying contractors you should have documents saying what they are being hired to do, when it has to be done, and how they will be paid, etc. so there isn't any ambiguity about who did or did not meet their obligations. (The apparent lack of those procedures being evidence of insufficient business acumen when it comes to development work.)

 

Agreed on the memo line-- I just find them telling in what they *don't* say. (They don't say "payment for invoice #xyz", "payment for Coleco Chameleon prototype hardware", etc.) For all we know, that could have been outsourced to a 3rd party like the "FPGA cores" Mike mentioned and Sean was brokering the effort or just advising.

 

You're probably correct that those nice round numbers don't sound like T&M work (unless it was capped/'not to exceed'); they could certainly be some kind of milestone for having done some particular task or whatever. (Even if only verbal as you mention.)

 

I also agree that more likely than not if Mike did consult an attorney he was probably told "yep, that was a bad deal, but you'll spend 5x that amount trying to get the money back and you'll probably lose" -- or -- there's something embarrassing/damning in whatever contracts/agreements/emails/etc. that'd come out in discovery that makes him not want to go through legal channels and instead try to win in the 'public eye'. (We're all witness to how well that is going.)

[leods]

I think Mike was lucky. Had he succeeded in getting Kickstarter funding I bet two years down the road the money would all be gone and there'd be nothing ready to ship and he'd be in FAR worse trouble when the backers came out with torches and pitchforks wanting their $2M back... Maybe he should be thanking those he blames for saving him from himself!

 

-Clay

 

I hope this has been obvious since the IGG campaign. They put that thing up without Hardware specs. Not just without a prototype, but without any kind of actual hardware description except for "it plays cartridges". They didin't even know what they were asking money for. And they still expected people to donate? At that point it was 100% clear this was a failure. The fact Mike didn't realyze no one in their right mind would donate to that was enough evidence to show he was completely clueless as the lead of the project.

 

Some people seem to think we're obsessed with mike, or that we hate the project. We were just pointing ou the obvious flaws that indicated that if this project got funded most likely the outcome would not be pleasing.

 

All that happened after the IGG was just solidifying and proving that further, because obviously as time goes on things get clearer. What is surprising is to see it took 3 proven to be fake prototypes to make some people realye "maybe this isn't developing right".

 

Now I do agree there's very little productive comming out of this thread at this point.

Edited April 10, 2016 by leods

[jaybird3rd]

Little random O- O. Unless there's something I missed.

Heh ... the "peanut butter in the fridge" thing has become something of a running joke on the #CUPodcast; I believe it originated in this segment.

[StopDrop&Retro]

I think Mike was lucky. Had he succeeded in getting Kickstarter funding I bet two years down the road the money would all be gone and there'd be nothing ready to ship and he'd be in FAR worse trouble when the backers came out with torches and pitchforks wanting their $2M back... Maybe he should be thanking those he blames for saving him from himself!

 

-Clay

 

Nah, Mike is the guy who went underground for over a month while his closest "friends" dealt with the fallout from a disaster of his own making. And now that he's come back (from vacation) and tells us a story about how he's been victimized in every way short of being taken hostage, he decides that he'll defiantly crawl back in his hole since no one believed him.

 

He's not a hardware guy or a software guy, he's a money guy. After the campaign succeeds, his problems are over and his backers' have just begun. I agree with you, that money would have dried up quickly, he'd have no more to show than he did before being exposed, he'd probably try to tell this same fantastical story and then hide in his hole and turn his phone off. As much as I like Kickstarter, everyone knows there's almost no accountability at all, Mike knows that too, which is why he never went to a bank to ask for funding or a small business loan since they have an abundance of accountability measures.

 

I really don't think Mike's going to win any legal case. I'm certain it was just an oral arrangement, and Sean did deliver literal mockups and a playable system for the toy fair, and was compensated as apparently agreed. Mike's words have been captured here over time and lawyers from both sides will certainly be poring over this thread if it ever comes to that, especially as media articles point right back here. But Mike can certainly push this into the courts without many barriers, if he can find a lawyer amenable to the case. I also suspect that most lawyers will simply tell him he's screwed.

 

I don't think it has anything to do with paying lawyers. This is not a contract dispute, Mike has made some serious allegations against Sean and claims he's contacted "local authorities." There are ways to seek a remedy from the defendant in a criminal case, it's harder but possible. I doubt Mike would take it there, he probably didn't even contact authorities. It doesn't take a genius to hear his story and know something's not right. Mike broke down under our questioning, how do you think he's going to fare against questions from a real investigator who makes a living by getting inside the mind of a con? These guys have very sensitive bullshit detectors and would see straight though Mike. I could only see Mike incriminating himself.

[Schizophretard]

So if this does go to court what happens if Mike gets asked a question he doesn't like?

 

There won't be a delete button for him there.

[sh3-rg]

You know, I basically ignored this thread for the last week and a half as it seemed the story was over and the thread would devolve into Hello Kitty GIF's and Shatner pics. Boy was I wrong, lesson learned.

Yep, every few weeks there are calls to lock the thread because "it's done".

IT'S NEVER DONE

Just saying, I know Mike personally.

You are not unique in this regard - plenty of people posting in this thread have had similar dealings with him, and others know him way better than you ever will. Surprisingly enough, most do not feel the need to jump to his defense in the face of The Internet, aka The AtariAge Hater Brigade. In fact, there's much that has come to light that helps create a better picture of who he is and how he operates. As for a few trades and phone calls with someone a decade and a half ago... I'm not sure this is relevant character witness material when people who interacted with him on a daily or weekly basis for many years aren't willing to do likewise.

As for "peoples of the internet" - it's a flaccid blanket statement used by people who can't form worthwhile opinions because they haven't/cba to do their due diligence. Maybe you should actually research the content of these 340+ pages and the RVGS thread before it... because, you know... maybe it's not just one of your apparent cases of The Internet being The Internet and just maybe there's a little bit more to it.

Just about everything people are responding with pretty much reiterates my point about the Internet. I give Mike the benefit of the doubt based on my personal experience. I'm not saying you have to. Please don't, or else it might seem like I am actually making sense! But don't expect me to adopt your perspective. Or to contribute in any way to the negativity that people partake in on the Internet.

If everybody gave Mike the benefit of the doubt he'd be $2million better off and his vacation wouldn't have been to lay low, it'd be to celebrate being crowned King of RetroLand.

Edited April 10, 2016 by sh3-rg

[jaybird3rd]

I know that this is from a few pages back but I have to say...

 

I am genuinely sick to fucking death of talking about this nonsense. As people who have been covering this since the announcement of the RVGS we sort of had to follow up here but boy howdy... can this please stay buried? =D

 

At this point I'm ready for 18 more amiibo segments... =P

Ian, I feel your pain, I really do. I appreciate your revisiting the story one more time on the podcast. I would have preferred it if Mike had let this story stay as dead as it obviously was, and of course, it's still dead in the sense that this particular console project won't be rearing its head again. Mike says that he "officially tabled" the venture, but since there was no way forward for him after Coleco pulled their license, it was hardly his decision. A lot of the discussion that's happened since then has involved countering Mike's revisionist history, and while that's important, I'll admit that it's a little too "inside baseball" to be of interest to anyone who hasn't been following the story in detail—and probably to most of them, too.

 

There are three factors that keep me interested in it. One is that Mike is trying to recast himself as someone who had noble intentions but was laid low by a scammer and is now heroically going after him like some kind of vigilante. It's pretty clear that he's actually trying to shift the blame for his failures to an unsympathetic figure while whitewashing his own history. That seems to indicate that he wants to remain involved in the community to some extent—otherwise, all he'd care about is getting his money back—which merits further watchfulness.

 

Another factor is the desire to understand more fully what happened and how and why it happened. There is something to be learned from every failure, but this one is especially instructive, and there are bound to be more "retrospectives" written about it. As we know, Mike managed to snare several prominent people, set out to bilk the community for millions of dollars, and came dangerously close to succeeding. And as StopDrop&Retro points out in a recent video, this kind of thing is likely to happen more in the future as our little hobby grows more mainstream, unless we're all a lot more careful. The better we understand this project, the better we'll be able to identify others like it in the future and the better we'll be able to avoid its failures in our own projects, so digging out every lesson we can is worth the effort.

 

The third factor, of course, is good old-fashioned schadenfreude. I'll admit that this is especially sweet given how insufferably belligerent and arrogant many of the principals involved were during the time this project was a going concern. For example, let's take this dude ...

 

 

That's Daniel Kayser from Episode #24 of Talk RETRO, the official shill podcast of RETRO Magazine, in which he set out to "school da haterz" by "counter[ing] the negativity surrounding the Coleco Chameleon with stone cold facts from David [Giltinan]'s trip to the New York Toy Fair." If that doesn't make you wish you could punch someone in the face over the Internet, nothing will.

[PlaysWithWolves]

 

Just about everything people are responding with pretty much reiterates my point about the Internet. I give Mike the benefit of the doubt based on my personal experience. I'm not saying you have to. Please don't, or else it might seem like I am actually making sense! But don't expect me to adopt your perspective. Or to contribute in any way to the negativity that people partake in on the Internet.

 

Plenty of people have had good dealings with this Sean guy. By your own logic, MK himself is an Internet hater.

 

Also. The true way of the Internet is ad hominem attacks by way of blanket hate/negativity accusations.