Edladdin Colecovision Controller Kickstarter now LIVE!

[Swami]

2 hours ago, edladdin said:

 

This is the second time someone has said they emailed me without a reply.  Was that sent to ed@edladdin.com?  Or ed@betar.com?   I dont think I'm receiving the @edladdin mail.  GoDaddy generally sucks.  We used to get notifications whenever a sale came through the shopping cart.  Now we have to log into the site and manually check whether any sales have come in.   I dont know whats up with the email.

I used the “contact us” form on the website. No idea where that goes. I checked the source info and couldn’t find an email behind the contact us form. It just went to contact-send.sc

[Hastor]

I emailed the address that was shown on the page with the failure message - sales@betar.com

 

This was a few months ago. I remember it let me add things to my cart, it was only when I tried to proceed to checkout that I got an error page with the above address.

[Swami]

Regarding the flashbacks, the controllers were bad and it might have done better if it was hdmi. People are just crazy about playing these 192 resolution games in 2k. 

[edladdin]

21 hours ago, Hastor said:

Nice, I might get the standalone adapter as I already have the Super CV stick in addition to the SAC plus.

A lot of people would kill for an adapter with keypad like that for the Atari 5200 btw! I think someone made plans that use a PS2 controller but no one is selling them and it's a bit beyond my level to do myself. I guess the analog sticks make it a little more complicated than this.

 

Funny you should mention that...  The other project in the works is a full-on controller for the 5200 - the Super 52.  It includes an AUX IN port for use with Atari 2600 and Sega Genesis controllers (both buttons!), so we are definitely looking at dual-purposing that board into an Edladdin version of the Masterplay adapter.

[edladdin]

21 hours ago, Swami said:

I used the “contact us” form on the website. No idea where that goes. I checked the source info and couldn’t find an email behind the contact us form. It just went to contact-send.sc

 

20 hours ago, Hastor said:

I emailed the address that was shown on the page with the failure message - sales@betar.com

 

This was a few months ago. I remember it let me add things to my cart, it was only when I tried to proceed to checkout that I got an error page with the above address.

Stupid godaddy!   ?

 

[Hastor]

That looks awesome, does it support analog? I have a digital controller for the 5200 that works great for many games, but it's impossible to control many well that depends on analog, like super breakout, missile command, centipede, pole position, and many others.

I'd imagine it's digital when converting a Sega controller, but what about the built in stick? Digital-only 5200 controllers are a bit limited in use.

[Hastor]

I know the PS2 adapter that you can get plans for retains the analog, a which is why it needs a PS2 controller.

[doubledown]

There really aren't that many 5200 games that need an analog joystick, while granted all will work with an analog joystick.  Analog paddle/wheel or Trak-Ball yes, there are a few, but an analog joystick is only proper for I believe the RealSports sports games, Star Raiders, Rescue on Fractalus, and Star Wars (even though it was made for a twin-grip flight yoke).  And technically due to the poor porting decision by CBS Electronics of Gorf for the 5200, it requires an analog joystick, but the original arcade version didn't, nor do any other ports made for any other console/computer.  

 

Super Breakout, Kaboom!, Chicken, and even Pole Position while they can be played with an analog joystick...are better/properly played with a paddle/wheel type controller.

 

Centipede, Millipede (prototype), and Missile Command, while yes also can be played with an analog joystick, are supremely better with a Trak-Ball.  

 

I feel people think that there are more analog "joystick" 5200 games than there really are.  

[Hastor]

It just seems to be the games I play, and several I like to use the joystick. With pole position and needing to hold up/down along with an analog direction, a trackball doesn't work great. Also, I'm not aware of any great trakball replacement. My original is very wobbly due to the metal spinners becoming corroded over the years. These games also play great if you have a working original 5200 joystick - I'd love something that replicates that feel.

 

A digital will work for many games, but I'd love to have one replacement to rule them all. Even with a PS2 controller, the auto centering of the stick makes stuff like missile command or breakout impossible. A new trackball or spinner, or adapter to use a PC mouse (which could be a trackball) would be awesome.

 

I appreciate everything being done here just sharing my perfect world wishes lol.

[edladdin]

21 hours ago, Hastor said:

That looks awesome, does it support analog? I have a digital controller for the 5200 that works great for many games, but it's impossible to control many well that depends on analog, like super breakout, missile command, centipede, pole position, and many others.

I'd imagine it's digital when converting a Sega controller, but what about the built in stick? Digital-only 5200 controllers are a bit limited in use.

The joystick is a full native analog joystick.  It uses the Hall Effect, so no pots to fail or jitter.  And its self-centering. 

 

I didnt think the world needed me to produce another binary stick on the 5200.  Plenty of masterplays and MP clones available for that version of gameplay. 

Edited February 12, 2020 by edladdin
clarification

[edladdin]

20 hours ago, doubledown said:

There really aren't that many 5200 games that need an analog joystick, while granted all will work with an analog joystick.  Analog paddle/wheel or Trak-Ball yes, there are a few, but an analog joystick is only proper for I believe the RealSports sports games, Star Raiders, Rescue on Fractalus, and Star Wars (even though it was made for a twin-grip flight yoke).  And technically due to the poor porting decision by CBS Electronics of Gorf for the 5200, it requires an analog joystick, but the original arcade version didn't, nor do any other ports made for any other console/computer.  

 

Super Breakout, Kaboom!, Chicken, and even Pole Position while they can be played with an analog joystick...are better/properly played with a paddle/wheel type controller.

 

Centipede, Millipede (prototype), and Missile Command, while yes also can be played with an analog joystick, are supremely better with a Trak-Ball.  

 

I feel people think that there are more analog "joystick" 5200 games than there really are.  

 

One of my favorite games in the entire Atari lineup is Dreadnaught Factor, and its absolutely an analog stick game.   For me, this whole effort is as much about being able to play that game with an arcade controller, and have a spinner/paddle to play my favorite single axis games - Super  Breakout, Kaboom, Pole Position, Galaxians, and Tempest.

 

[doubledown]

I completely understand, and different people will always have different ideas of what feels right for them playing any given game.  The 5200 port of The Dreadnaught Factor can make use of analog flight controls, but the game was originally programmed for the INTV (with its digital controls), and a year later ported to the 5200 (with analog support) and the 8-bits (with their digital controls), so obviously it's not completely necessary.  People who grew up with a 5200 and Kaboom! think that an analog joystick is the right way to play, but those of us that grew up with the 2600 know better.  It still surprises me that so many 5200 collectors/players seem completely satisfied with playing their 5200 games with a MasterPlay-esque device, 3rd party Genesis controller, and CX-52 (for keypad & S/P/R buttons) for their gaming experience (people also play emulated games on their phones too and think that's just fine).  It just all goes back to what I found out recently, in that, there really aren't that many analog control games in the 5200 library, and even less analog joystick games; when you factor in having a paddle controller and Trak-Ball as well.  I believe far too many people are under the impression that 1/2 of the library needs an analog joystick, when this is no where near an accurate figure.  Realistically when you remove the playable Paddle and Trak-Ball games from the library, there's what, less than 10 games that can use, or need an analog joystick?  That's not to say that there shouldn't be one available, and kudos to bringing one to the public, I just feel it has less "necessity" than people think it has.  Just look at the ColecoVision Roller Controller, Driving Module, and Super Action Controller required games.  I don't think I've had a ColecoVision Roller Controller hooked up in the last 10 years, and I hadn't had a Driving Module hooked up in about the same amount of time, until a couple of months back when I was doing some testing.  Obviously the entire library of 5200 games can be played with a CX-52, so get one rebuilt and you don't need any other controller...if that's what you're comfortable with.  But Parker Bros. obviously realized the deficiencies of the CX-52 when they ported Frogger, Frogger II: Threeedeep!, and Q*bert! to the 5200.  The joystick is not used to move your character (as it is in every other port), its used to aim your character, then you press a button to move...or use the keypad buttons 2/4/6/8 for directional movement in Frogger/Frogger II.  Obviously their programmers did their due diligence and realized, that the CX-52's joystick wouldn't work well for these games.  

 

Ed, out of curiosity, the analog joystick you're looking to use for your Super 52, how is it size-wise, and feel-wise, when compared to other types of arcade sticks (like Seimitsu/Sanwa/iL/Wico/Happ)?  With this I'm referring to ball knob diameter, ball height (above control panel), length of throw, and weight of throw...just curious.  

[Hastor]

Is there a currently available single axis spinner for the 5200? Or trakball replacement aside from originals?

 

The 5200 was my first console ever, actually my brother's, when I first started playing games, so the joystick does feel right for some of these to me. We did get a trakball that no longer works well, and I've since replaced it with a neatly like-new one that's great - for now. I'm trying to find some solutions that will let me play for decades like my NES and PS1 controllers etc hold up. When this trakball gets wonky in 10 years, another replacement may be more difficult.

 

For games that don't like a self centering stick, you really need something like this as I haven't seen any other options currently, and no one's made one with a switch that can go between centering and not (I think the Wico had such a switch).

 

The stuff about the calibration sounds good. I have two analog controllers in 3d printed cases for the 5200. They are fine with most digital games, but their centering varies. The maker of them told me they were always off a little and testing different resistors in each one would be the only way to correct them due to variations. Both pull my car to the right in Pole Position.

 

For example, in Super Breakout, one of them puts my paddle half way to the right side, and the other about 1/4 of the way, when centered by their own mechanism. The up/down varies too, and testing carts have confirmed this. One that is truly center when centered would be awesome!

Edited February 12, 2020 by Hastor

[edladdin]

3 hours ago, doubledown said:

snip

Definitely agree that an analog controller is not needed for the majority of stick games.  My goal is to hook up the people that want to play the games that do with the best analog controller that I can deliver, not to talk them out of wanting to use analog.

 

[edladdin]

45 minutes ago, Hastor said:

Is there a currently available single axis spinner for the 5200? Or trakball replacement aside from originals?

 

 

I dont know of anyone that is offering a commercial spinner.  Definitely lots of examples of people making one-offs and/or modding the track ball to deliver that.  Willie Culver recently posted pics of a spinner that he added to his CX-53 using a rotary encoder, signal circuit from the CX-53, and a big knob that I sent him. 

[Hastor]

Yeah I figured it would be a small project maker thing, which I have many of for various systems, some that less than 50 exist of. I just want someone to do it for me, because while I'm fine with a solder-by-numbers kit, I don't know how to read schematics, don't have a 3D printer, and an not great with the asthetic side of things. I'm also old, tired, and busy, and would just rather get a completed product lol. If anyone does put such a thing up for sale, I'd be interested.

 

Any possibility of your adapters, or a future revision, eventually accepting something like a USB mouse or spinner and converting it to 5200? (It ones from any console with easier to find stuff), Or is that way beyond the scope of what you want to do?

 

Seems my Jaguar spinner controller would be perfect for the 5200, has the keypad and everything. Just beyond me on how to convert it.

[doubledown]

I assume Tempest is the only Spinner Controller compatible 5200 game?  Would make sense as that's how the arcade cabinet was.  All others, Kaboom!, Super Breakout, Pole Position are "Paddle Controller" games obviously.  

[Hastor]

7 minutes ago, doubledown said:

I assume Tempest is the only Spinner Controller compatible 5200 game?  Would make sense as that's how the arcade cabinet was.  All others, Kaboom!, Super Breakout, Pole Position are "Paddle Controller" games obviously.  

Is the only difference there that paddles have a stopping point and spinners can spin forever? If that's the case it seems it would be easy to add optional stop points to a spinner.

[doubledown]

55 minutes ago, Hastor said:

Is the only difference there that paddles have a stopping point and spinners can spin forever? If that's the case it seems it would be easy to add optional stop points to a spinner.

In the most basic sense yes, think 2600 Paddles vs. Driving controllers.  Paddles are potentiometers that can only physically spin normally 270 - 300 degrees of rotation, and they output a variable resistance (some ohms range 0-"X" depending on the pot).  Spinners are normally digital encoders that output "pulses" or "counts" which can be interpreted regarding how many pulses counted, and the speed that they are counted.  This is how the arcade Tempest spinner, all arcade driving games who's wheel would spin indefinitely (like Sega's Turbo), the Coleco Driving Module, and probably all Trak-Balls work. 

[Swami]

5 hours ago, edladdin said:

 

I dont know of anyone that is offering a commercial spinner.  Definitely lots of examples of people making one-offs and/or modding the track ball to deliver that.  Willie Culver recently posted pics of a spinner that he added to his CX-53 using a rotary encoder, signal circuit from the CX-53, and a big knob that I sent him. 

 

5 hours ago, Hastor said:

Yeah I figured it would be a small project maker thing, which I have many of for various systems, some that less than 50 exist of. I just want someone to do it for me, because while I'm fine with a solder-by-numbers kit, I don't know how to read schematics, don't have a 3D printer, and an not great with the asthetic side of things. I'm also old, tired, and busy, and would just rather get a completed product lol. If anyone does put such a thing up for sale, I'd be interested.

 

Any possibility of your adapters, or a future revision, eventually accepting something like a USB mouse or spinner and converting it to 5200? (It ones from any console with easier to find stuff), Or is that way beyond the scope of what you want to do?

 

Seems my Jaguar spinner controller would be perfect for the 5200, has the keypad and everything. Just beyond me on how to convert it.

Replicating the trackball/joystick functions of the CX53 trackball is very doable. For the joystick part, you need a microcontroller that converts the USB mouse movement into sega genesis type joystick movement, which has been done for PS/2 compatible USB mice, and then a Masterplay Clone circuit to convert it to 5200 input. For the trackball part, you need another microcontroller that converts USB mouse movement to quadrature output like an Atari/Amiga/Bus mouse, which has been done very well for USB mice, and then you need to replicate the circuit in the CX53 after the optical encoders, which is pretty basic, but like 100 components. Then you need a switch to power one adapter path or the other and a wired up keypad. It could all fit in a 3" x 3" x 3" box, but it might cost $200 if ever made. You could plug a USB mouse or spinner in that is USB or PS/2 compatible, depending, and use it in either joystick or trackball mode with a keypad on the adapter. Only caveat may be that it moves much  faster in trackball mode than the original. I'm not sure how to mod the circuit to adjust for that. I would also like to see a true USB to joystick adapter someday. I may undertake it some day, maybe when I'm retired in 15 years, but could be a weekend job for an electronics expert.

[MrPix]

29 minutes ago, Swami said:

 

....but could be a weekend job for an electronics expert.

USB keyboards that support PS/2 fall back to a PS/2 serial clocked data and clock line. The keyboard driver ship no longer uses USB protocol at all, and just implements vintage PS/2. The keyboard falls back to this mode any time power is applied but no USB requests are made within a few seconds.

That said, if you have the trackball, it is converting quadrature to USB, and you have access to the quadrature signals. Someone with experience with small CPLDs or FPGAs would be able to do this in a few days. Personally, I'd throw a PSoC 5LP at it, and make it a bit more intelligent.

As for the controller that is the heart of this thread, it looks like a very well conceived device being made as a limited run, so development costs get spread across very few users. Yes, prices are high for bespoke hardware. If you want it for $60 or $70, I'll do them for you but it will be a strong, reinforced and weighted plastic case, and microswitch buttons. It will work, and do the job, and look oh so pretty. But it would be cheap to the core.

What they're building is not.

[Swami]

27 minutes ago, MrPix said:

That said, if you have the trackball, it is converting quadrature to USB, and you have access to the quadrature signals. 

Do USB optical trackballs use quadrature to USB? I wouldn't have thought so. That's what I am referring to: an optical or laser mouse or trackball, not the mechanical sort pre-2000. This would be something separate from what Edladdin is doing, unless they decided to make such an adapter in addition to the Hall effect analog joystick they are talking about.

[MrPix]

40 minutes ago, Swami said:

Do USB optical trackballs use quadrature to USB? I wouldn't have thought so. That's what I am referring to: an optical or laser mouse or trackball, not the mechanical sort pre-2000.

Optical trackballs are 1 chip or 2 chip. The 2 chip ones you can often get the X Y -X -Y signals. Trouble is, one model number will have many different innards...