Willsy Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 The ST may not be mentioned in documentaries, but its legacy is documented in the literally thousands of pop songs and albums from the late 80s and right through the nineties, from Frankie Goes To Hollywood to Depeche Mode, to Mike Oldfield, The Pet Shop Boys, to Dire Straits and Brothers In Arms. http://www.stuff.tv/features/hall-fame-atari-st-computer-kickstarted-home-recording-boom 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
high voltage Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 (edited) I like it: The turning point for this was when we launched the ST Power Pack with 24 really cool games,” says Darryl Still, “The pack itself was a monstrous success, selling millions.... And Mike Pinder, of famous Moody Blues was actually working for Atari. Edited February 18, 2016 by high voltage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chepe Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 Not knowing much about the ColecoVision or Intellivision and marginalizing the Dreamcast says it all. Naturally, if I were writing a book from a European or Japanese perspective, things would be quite different, with the former having systems like the ZX Spectrum and Amstrad CPC and the latter having systems like MSX and PC Engine, as just two pairs of examples, taking more prominent roles. Hey, don't take it as bashing, I was just giving out examples how perspectives could be radically different elsewhere Having said that, I still think Dreamcast is not anywhere close to top20. It was just sort of a flop, I'd say that even Sega Master System would have been better inclusion. Maybe inclusion of Dreamcast is bit of recentness bias, as it's something most readers would remember, whilst the '80s machines would be obscure to many. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Loguidice Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 Having said that, I still think Dreamcast is not anywhere close to top20. It was just sort of a flop, I'd say that even Sega Master System would have been better inclusion. Maybe inclusion of Dreamcast is bit of recentness bias, as it's something most readers would remember, whilst the '80s machines would be obscure to many. In the console space the Dreamcast broke a lot of ground and was incredibly influential in a lot of ways. It's true it didn't even quite sell as much as the Saturn, which doesn't have its own dedicated chapter, but it's not all about sales. Sales are just one factor among many to consider. Here's an excerpt from our Forward to give you some additional context: "To sum up, your authors have a monumental task ahead of them. Our goal is to discuss each of our chosen platforms in depth, covering not just the machine itself, but also the assumptions behind its manufacture, the ways it was (mis)marketed, received, and developed, and the subcultures it fostered. We’ll take you inside the fan bases of each system, many of which are still thriving today in the form of “homebrew” scenes, expos, and online retrogaming communities. We want to situate these systems in their proper social context, and show you, for instance, what it was like as a gamer to own an Apple II in the early 1980s, and how your experience would have been much different with an Atari 800, Commodore 64, or ColecoVision. Obviously, we cannot talk about every gaming system ever released. If we tried, this book would weigh more than a PS3[1]! So, much as we did with Vintage Games, we’re taking a selection of the twenty systems that we feel are some combination of the most influential, innovative, important, and interesting to read and write about. We also want to feature the systems with the most active homebrew and emulation scenes. It really says something about a vintage system when people are still developing new software for it thirty years later! Finally, in yet another parallel with Vintage Games and further defining this book as the next entry in our Vintage series, we will again be presenting the North American, or, more specifically, the US perspective of our subject. That means that great game systems like the British ZX Spectrum or Japanese MSX platforms were not up for consideration when forming our list, though may still get a passing mention. Similarly, that is why a platform like the Atari ST, which was a big success in Europe, can lose out in consideration to the relatively similar Commodore Amiga platform, which enjoyed a higher level of North American support. Perhaps future volumes of Vintage Game Consoles or entries in the Vintage series could rectify such an unintended slight for fans of a specific platform. The chapters in this book are organized roughly chronologically and grouped into “generations,” an industry term that indicates a sort of collective step forward in technology. We’ll stop with the third generation, which extends to 2001 and the introduction of the Xbox, GameCube, and PlayStation 2.While each chapter is focused on a single system or platform, expect to find some overlap, especially in situations where two systems competed head-to-head, like the Xbox and the PlayStation 2. While you may be tempted to jump to your favorite platform, we recommend that you read the book cover-to-cover to get the full picture. Each of the systems we cover here has played an important historical role in the formation of the entire games industry, and you might get inspired to (finally) get around to playing games on computers and consoles you’ve never owned or even heard of before. [1] Sony’s original version of the PlayStation 3 weighs over 11 pounds." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gozar Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 Again, I welcome you or anyone else to indicate which platform(s) should have been replaced for a featured chapter in the 20 in "Vintage Game Consoles." When doing so, be sure to keep in mind that the book can't be any longer than it already is and that each of the platforms chosen was chosen for its overall impact and influence (and not necessarily sales) in their respective eras (and obviously as told from a US perspective). Naturally, you'll specifically want to figure out what platform the ST was more important than in Generation Two, which is the section of the book it would have fallen into. And here, I'll help you out, so you don't even have to risk reading any of the book to gain much needed context: **Generation One (1971 – 1984)** Arcade (1971) Apple II (1977) Atari 2600 VCS (1977) Atari 8-bit (1979) Mattel Intellivision (1979) PC DOS Computers (1981) Commodore 64 (1982) Coleco ColecoVision (1982) **Generation Two (1985 – 1994)** Nintendo Entertainment System (1985) Commodore Amiga (1985) Sega Genesis (1989) Nintendo GameBoy (1989) Nintendo Super NES (1991) **Generation Three (1995 – 2001)** PC Windows Computers (1995) Sony PlayStation (1995) Nintendo 64 (1996) Sega Dreamcast (1999) Sony PlayStation 2 (2000) Microsoft Xbox (2001) Nintendo GameCube (2001) On a side note, while the book was written in such a way that it doesn't have to be read in order (i.e., you can just read an individual chapter if you were so moved since it's reasonably self contained), it works much better when read in order, as each of the three sections and each of the chapters builds on the information established in the pages that preceded it. I would have dropped Apple II and PC DOS from generation 1. Oregon Trail didn't even come out until 1985. :-) Sure, you could play games on them, and they were influential in the computer area, but video game consoles they were not. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Loguidice Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 I would have dropped Apple II and PC DOS from generation 1. Oregon Trail didn't even come out until 1985. :-) Sure, you could play games on them, and they were influential in the computer area, but video game consoles they were not. Yes, I should have dropped the Apple II, one of the most important and influential gaming platforms of all-time, where countless legendary game series and game programmers got their starts. Or are you ignoring the part about this being a book about the most important game playing computer, console, and handheld platforms and not just videogame consoles and the reason why "consoles" was used by the publisher in the title rather than something more generic like "platforms" or "systems"? (not to mention "The Greatest Gaming Platforms of All Time" being the subtitle) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atarian63 Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 One of them was a mom'n'pop shop - Software Etc. In Streamwood or Hangover Park. They had a huge space shuttle mural on the wall. Another was a more pro-level place in a town that started with a V or G. Glenview maybe? There was also Aurora Computers in Aurora. Also at the time of Amiga and St ,Mom and Pop shops were also the majority of computer outlets, changed by the time of "Dude you getting a Dell" crap. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atarian63 Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 (edited) I don't think the ST was ever dominant at any time. Sure it was, 85 ,(being released 6 months before Amiga ) up to early 88,when you basically could not get supply from Atari and the A500 was your only real choice and by mid 88 available in sufficient numbers. That was the killer, we were always told at the time it was a ram shortage but it would appear also Atari concentrated on europe and left us dealers hung out to dry, We also sold Amiga but it wasnt with the enthusiasm we had for ST, then as Pc's began to really get going, it was quite dull. Seemed like Amiga and St were basically over by 1990, people wanted pc's.. ugh.. so awful Edited February 19, 2016 by atarian63 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atarian63 Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 (edited) Yes, I should have dropped the Apple II, one of the most important and influential gaming platforms of all-time, where countless legendary game series and game programmers got their starts. Or are you ignoring the part about this being a book about the most important game playing computer, console, and handheld platforms and not just videogame consoles and the reason why "consoles" was used by the publisher in the title rather than something more generic like "platforms" or "systems"? (not to mention "The Greatest Gaming Platforms of All Time" being the subtitle) Can't leave out Apple though it was quite inferior to an Atari or c64 it sold in large numbers and like you said many folks got their start in that weak platform. We chose not to carry any apple at our retail store(though did sell franklin for a short period) It was a hard sell sitting next to Atari or C64 even used actual Apples at a low price found few takers,not typical for sure as they sold alot elsewhere, seemed like a Mall machine or something that sold well at a stuffy corporate retailer . We did carry software for a brief time, we did lots of closeouts which sold well on all other platforms, but Apple.. ha you had to raise the price to get it to move, Apple folks did not understand discounts.. we never brought in another truckload. I was always amused by our EA rep at the time, they were going one direction and we were going another. Nice girl who worked hard visiting all the many many mom and pop shops. Edited February 19, 2016 by atarian63 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Loguidice Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 Can't leave out Apple though it was quite inferior to an Atari or c64 it sold in large numbers and like you said many folks got their start in that weak platform. We chose not to carry any apple at our retail store(though did sell franklin for a short period) It was a hard sell sitting next to Atari or C64 even used actual Apples at a low price found few takers,not typical for sure as they sold alot elsewhere, seemed like a Mall machine or something that sold well at a stuffy corporate retailer . We did carry software for a brief time, we did lots of closeouts which sold well on all other platforms, but Apple.. ha you had to raise the price to get it to move, Apple folks did not understand discounts.. we never brought in another truckload. A platform's technology is really irrelevant to the discussion, although obviously worth discussing within the book. While it's true that the Apple II was inferior technologically in most ways to the Atari 8-bit and C-64 (and many other 8-bits), it was one of the longest lived platforms, being produced from 1977 to 1993. While it sold much better than the Atari 8-bits, it obviously never came anywhere near the C-64s numbers. Nevertheless, despite the platform's relative high cost of entry, it did have solid sales numbers, which says something when it was typically many times the price of the competition. Obviously being an "open" platform, easily expandable, etc., all worked in its favor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atarian63 Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 A platform's technology is really irrelevant to the discussion, although obviously worth discussing within the book. While it's true that the Apple II was inferior technologically in most ways to the Atari 8-bit and C-64 (and many other 8-bits), it was one of the longest lived platforms, being produced from 1977 to 1993. While it sold much better than the Atari 8-bits, it obviously never came anywhere near the C-64s numbers. Nevertheless, despite the platform's relative high cost of entry, it did have solid sales numbers, which says something when it was typically many times the price of the competition. Obviously being an "open" platform, easily expandable, etc., all worked in its favor. I would say being in Schools and an uneducated public certainly were the main factors, kind of like the old saying of no one evr got fired for buying IBM. Schools being the key here. A more educated public today might have made a different choice, but that is all the past. c64 being the leader does seem to show the price is king. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Loguidice Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 I would say being in Schools and an uneducated public certainly were the main factors, kind of like the old saying of no one evr got fired for buying IBM. Schools being the key here. A more educated public today might have made a different choice, but that is all the past. c64 being the leader does seem to show the price is king. Of course all of that and more is discussed in the book, but yes, being dominant in schools was a big help to Apple and clearly a smart strategy. The C-64's success was down to the near perfect combination of power and price. It would not have had the success it did without excelling at both. As we've seen from the short highs and dramatic lows of platforms like the ZX81/Sinclair 1000, VIC-20, TI-99/4a, etc., price alone could never be the primary criteria for sustained success. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atarian63 Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 Of course all of that and more is discussed in the book, but yes, being dominant in schools was a big help to Apple and clearly a smart strategy. The C-64's success was down to the near perfect combination of power and price. It would not have had the success it did without excelling at both. As we've seen from the short highs and dramatic lows of platforms like the ZX81/Sinclair 1000, VIC-20, TI-99/4a, etc., price alone could never be the primary criteria for sustained success. Sure it can, it priced all the others out, Atari for instance had many many more titles for over 3 years after the c64 release however the uneducated public still bought it because it was cheaper, then came the crash, which gave them time to build the library and many other were then gone or diminished and certainly with no ability to counter commodore since they were busy reorganizing (Atari), so as far as sustainability,major retailers like kmart etc picked up the only real choice left, timing,circumstances and price were everything in that messy time. Lots of things are circumstance. Not saying c64 was not good but it really was handicapped at the start and not sure they were taken seriously at first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Loguidice Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 Sure it can, it priced all the others out, Atari for instance had many many more titles for over 3 years after the c64 release however the uneducated public still bought it because it was cheaper, then came the crash, which gave them time to build the library and many other were then gone or diminished and certainly with no ability to counter commodore since they were busy reorganizing (Atari), so as far as sustainability,major retailers like kmart etc picked up the only real choice left, timing,circumstances and price were everything in that messy time. Lots of things are circumstance. Not saying c64 was not good but it really was handicapped at the start and not sure they were taken seriously at first. Commodore controlled most of the supply chain with the C-64, so they were able to do things with pricing that no one else was able to do and still turn a profit. Again, though, that would have meant little if the C-64 didn't have the right combination of technical prowess. We can't underestimate, for instance, having a baseline of 64K to work with for all of its software, when both the Apple II and Atari 8-bit had legacy systems to worry about, meaning it was harder to go past the 16K - 48K software barrier (in the interest of supporting the widest possible range of systems). Again, lots of factors went into the C-64s success, and yes, aggressive pricing was one of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atarian63 Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 Commodore controlled most of the supply chain with the C-64, so they were able to do things with pricing that no one else was able to do and still turn a profit. Again, though, that would have meant little if the C-64 didn't have the right combination of technical prowess. We can't underestimate, for instance, having a baseline of 64K to work with for all of its software, when both the Apple II and Atari 8-bit had legacy systems to worry about, meaning it was harder to go past the 16K - 48K software barrier (in the interest of supporting the widest possible range of systems). Again, lots of factors went into the C-64s success, and yes, aggressive pricing was one of them. I can agree with that, however it was also the comedy of events that bought them time as they had little software early on, so you were buying a doorstop on faith. Had we not had the crash Atari at least could have focused on defeating them as they were a much larger company though unfocused and diversified, which was also their undoing. 2-3 years of unrest and selling of the company did not help at all, but that is all history. It would be hard to see some company pull that off today. In other words, a good enough machine with some time to catch up on software and little competition other than liquidation of competitors machines was a huge advantage, even with the awful disk drive system during the early years, not to mention the other brands scared off the major retailers, sears, kmart etc it's not like the consumer had alot of choice by 85/86. I give most of the benefit to the circumstances and confused troubled competition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryoder Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 If you lived in a small town in Pennsylvania like I did there was no mall but there was a Radio Shack on Main Street and they had Tandys. So that is what we bought. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+save2600 Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 If you lived in a small town in Pennsylvania like I did there was no mall but there was a Radio Shack on Main Street and they had Tandys. So that is what we bought. Hey, somebody had to support *that* platform! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Loguidice Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 Hey, somebody had to support *that* platform! The TRS-80 was actually the best selling computer from 1977 to about 1981. The CoCo lasted almost a decade on the market. The Tandy 1000 series was one of the top clone systems. I'd say Tandy did pretty good relative to all of the companies that came and went in that time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
high voltage Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 Apple was the most important 8-bitter, just watch Triumph of the Nerds, first killer-app with VisiCalc, game companies formed to support A2 with games.... C64 took off in 1983, after the price was dropped Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorsten Günther Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 Dunno why the CoCo survived that long given the C=64 juggernaut. On this side of the pond, the Dragon 32/64 - roughly the same hardware (many software titles did appear on both platforms) - didn't stand a chance against it, so Dragon Data Ltd. folded in 1984. The CoCo is a very rarer beast here (the PAL 400 and 800 are also rare, but not quite to the same extent). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Loguidice Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 Dunno why the CoCo survived that long given the C=64 juggernaut. On this side of the pond, the Dragon 32/64 - roughly the same hardware (many software titles did appear on both platforms) - didn't stand a chance against it, so Dragon Data Ltd. folded in 1984. The CoCo is a very rarer beast here (the PAL 400 and 800 are also rare, but not quite to the same extent). If you read this book ( ), it explains some of the reasons: http://www.amazon.com/CoCo-Colorful-History-Underdog-Computer/dp/1466592478 It came out in 1980 and became fairly inexpensive for Tandy to manufacture across its three main iterations, which is one of the reasons why it lasted into 1990. While it was weak audio-visually (at least until the CoCo 3, when the visuals took a big leap forward, at least for an 8-bit), it had a good BASIC (in its Extended form) and an interesting processor (the 6809), and of course availability in many thousands of local stores in the US. It was never a particularly competitive platform in terms of raw sales numbers (there aren't good ones available, but it's probably in the 2 - 3 million range as a platform), but it was one of a precious few personal computing platforms to last more than a few years on the market. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+save2600 Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 The TRS-80 was actually the best selling computer from 1977 to about 1981. The CoCo lasted almost a decade on the market. The Tandy 1000 series was one of the top clone systems. I'd say Tandy did pretty good relative to all of the companies that came and went in that time. Don't get me wrong, I actually like the TRS80 & CoCo line for what they are and their roles historically, but for a computer that did so "well" (so many iterations and lasted as long at least), where was all the third party support? Hell, even the TI had more going for it that way comparatively. Might have to purchase your book if tidbits like that are explained. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Loguidice Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 Don't get me wrong, I actually like the TRS80 & CoCo line for what they are and their roles historically, but for a computer that did so "well" (so many iterations and lasted as long at least), where was all the third party support? Hell, even the TI had more going for it that way comparatively. Might have to purchase your book if tidbits like that are explained. Quite a bit is explained in the book (and direct from many of the people who worked on the platform, of course), but the third party thing is not one of the mysteries we solved, because there was no mystery there (it is of course talked about in the book). Tandy wanted only Tandy-published software in their stores, so there was very little opportunity for third parties. If they didn't work out a co-branding deal with Tandy (or a specific Tandy publishing deal), third parties were mostly limited to mail order. Tandy did experiment a little with CoCo's sold outside their stores, re-branded TDP-100, and you'll see some third party CoCo stuff also target that "platform" (one of the more common Avalon Hill titles does), but otherwise it was their way or the highway. That meant that most third party support was from smaller shops who would advertise in the popular CoCo magazines. That didn't stop Avalon Hill, Infocom, and a few other big names from producing software on their own, though. And actually, taken as a whole, I wouldn't say the TI had more third party support (particularly if you count the third party stuff that Tandy simply re-branded), although it also was on the market for a far shorter period of time (and the reason why TI didn't get a lot of high profile third party support is because TI more or less discouraged it for most of the TI-99/4 and /4a's run). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atarian63 Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 Quite a bit is explained in the book (and direct from many of the people who worked on the platform, of course), but the third party thing is not one of the mysteries we solved, because there was no mystery there (it is of course talked about in the book). Tandy wanted only Tandy-published software in their stores, so there was very little opportunity for third parties. If they didn't work out a co-branding deal with Tandy (or a specific Tandy publishing deal), third parties were mostly limited to mail order. Tandy did experiment a little with CoCo's sold outside their stores, re-branded TDP-100, and you'll see some third party CoCo stuff also target that "platform" (one of the more common Avalon Hill titles does), but otherwise it was their way or the highway. That meant that most third party support was from smaller shops who would advertise in the popular CoCo magazines. That didn't stop Avalon Hill, Infocom, and a few other big names from producing software on their own, though. And actually, taken as a whole, I wouldn't say the TI had more third party support (particularly if you count the third party stuff that Tandy simply re-branded), although it also was on the market for a far shorter period of time (and the reason why TI didn't get a lot of high profile third party support is because TI more or less discouraged it for most of the TI-99/4 and /4a's run). That explains why we had a few people visit the store asking for Tansy stuff, especially joysticks, guess it was a go back to where you got it situation as nobody else carried stuff for it, though I do recall 3rd party tandy joysticks being available (suncom?). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Dragon Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 " Once the Amiga appeared the ST started to die. Initially games were being written for the ST and were ported to the Amiga which was sustainable given the Amiga was more powerful. But once games were developed for the Amiga and took advantage of its hardware the ST required its own version which doubled the costs. The ST game sales then began to slump and that was that. When I wrote Mortal Kombat on the Amiga, there was no ST development happening at Probe that I recall. It was all Nintendo and Sega by then." A UK Coders point of view. http://www.grumpyoldgamers.co.uk/index.php?/topic/4215-the-richard-costello-interview/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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