Jump to content
pacman3211

Flickering MOBs

Recommended Posts

Is there a way to make flickering MOBs appear solid in the Jzintv emulator? I remember the Stella emulator has some kind of option like this, to make flickering sprites solid.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is there a way to make flickering MOBs appear solid in the Jzintv emulator? I remember the Stella emulator has some kind of option like this, to make flickering sprites solid.

 

 

 

No.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is there a way to make flickering MOBs appear solid in the Jzintv emulator? I remember the Stella emulator has some kind of option like this, to make flickering sprites solid.

 

 

 

Intellivision games with flickering objects are fairly rare. Which games are you concerned about?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Intellivision games with flickering objects are fairly rare. Which games are you concerned about?

Is there a list of which games flicker on INTV, I heard of one but I forgot the name?

 

Has there been any good threads about multiplexing on INTV, I mostly push for minor flicker use like 10 sprites over the 8 default since there are times when 8 isn't enough?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is there a list of which games flicker on INTV, I heard of one but I forgot the name?

 

Has there been any good threads about multiplexing on INTV, I mostly push for minor flicker use like 10 sprites over the 8 default since there are times when 8 isn't enough?

 

I don't think there has been much discussion about multiplexing. It's something that people try to avoid for the most part on the Intellivision -- at least so far.

 

In the old Mattel days, they avoided multiplexing MOBs like the plague. In part because people complained about the flickering on Atari games and they didn't want to be on the same boat; but mostly it was because the EXEC (the Intellivision's built-in operating system that older games used) updated sprites at 20 Hz, which meant that the flicker would be three times as slow as in Atari games and thus three times as annoying.

 

One game that sticks in my mind as using MOB multiplexing techniques is "Deep Pockets." The reason it sticks in my mind is because the flicker is very only annoying and distracting as you perform the initial break. At times, it's even hard to follow the trajectory of some balls. This, in an otherwise good and enjoyable game.

 

I believe DK Arcade and D2K use multiplexing. I'd like to say Space Patrol does too, but I can't be sure right now.

 

-dZ.

Edited by DZ-Jay
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I do remember Space Patrol gif that intvnut showed that Space Patrol multiplexing when there's more than 8 MOBs on screen. Popeye is a game that multiplex sprites.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I do remember Space Patrol gif that intvnut showed that Space Patrol multiplexing when there's more than 8 MOBs on screen. Popeye is a game that multiplex sprites.

at least you can deal with it on popeye. The witch flicker is annoying but not always there. Cant remember if the hearts do but if it was i wasnt bothered enough to notice. Deep pockets is really bad but it doesnt stop me from playing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can't really remove flicker in Intellivision games as the Intellivision can only display 8 MOBs You can still see flicker in Megaman 2 in emulation when the game have more than 64 sprites, even display more than 8 sprites in a line is ticked on. Only thing that could be add in emulation like Stella and BlueMSX does is to blend the consecutive frame to help with the flickering problem. Current LCD monitor like this laptop, netbook and my old LCD runs at like 59.95 refresh rate for odd reason, making the image tear so bad. The Sharp LCD TV I have scanline effect on flickering sprites.

Edited by Kiwi

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd like to see a no-flicker option added to jzIntv, for the few games that use it.

 

While I obviously don't speak for the creator of jzintv, the impression I get is that it's intended to be as hardware-accurate as possible.

 

Some emulators offer all sorts of filters and whatnot to improve the original graphics, or make up for hardware deficiencies. I just don't see jzintv going that route. The Intellivision has flicker if you program it to, therefore so will a proper emulator.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

While I obviously don't speak for the creator of jzintv, the impression I get is that it's intended to be as hardware-accurate as possible.

 

Some emulators offer all sorts of filters and whatnot to improve the original graphics, or make up for hardware deficiencies. I just don't see jzintv going that route. The Intellivision has flicker if you program it to, therefore so will a proper emulator.

i prefer keeping any flicker as was original. I understand the dk's fix it because of some newer tv's but thats not altering its original look. Even though i play roms on a newer tv i always try to play with authentic controllers and even though i like my crisp clean look on a flatscreen the flicker still gives me some of that nostalgia

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In the old Mattel days, they avoided multiplexing MOBs like the plague. In part because people complained about the flickering on Atari games and they didn't want to be on the same boat; but mostly it was because the EXEC (the Intellivision's built-in operating system that older games used) updated sprites at 20 Hz, which meant that the flicker would be three times as slow as in Atari games and thus three times as annoying.

Ah okay that makes sense about the 20 Hz making for a slower update, mostly just making sure it can flicker rather than not ever as Mattel mandated. ;) 8 MOBs is a decent amount so even in case of multiplexing the needs are minimal for more sprites on screen.

 

It probably should be discussed more since that is where any system stretches beyond its default typically. I've tried to stay mindful of 8 MOBs, tried to employ 2X width options in bigger sprites and use background cards for crowds.

Does vertical isolation between scanlines help any on INTV to reduce multiplexing flicker like it does on the 2600 or is that why background cards were employed so often?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd like to see a no-flicker option added to jzIntv, for the few games that use it.

jzIntv is primarily a developer's tool. Accuracy to the original hardware is the priority (I think someone mentioned this already).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

While I obviously don't speak for the creator of jzintv, the impression I get is that it's intended to be as hardware-accurate as possible.

 

Some emulators offer all sorts of filters and whatnot to improve the original graphics, or make up for hardware deficiencies. I just don't see jzintv going that route. The Intellivision has flicker if you program it to, therefore so will a proper emulator.

 

 

jzIntv is primarily a developer's tool. Accuracy to the original hardware is the priority (I think someone mentioned this already).

 

Although I agree with the comments above, I do not think there would be a problem in implementing such a facility as an optional feature. At some time in the past, Joe Z. and others were discussing the implementation of different visualisations and graphic effects, like upscaling, etc. I do not know if that was ever done, but it shows you that there is no inherent aversion for flashy features.

 

That said, the priority is indeed as a development tool, so I wouldn't expect Joe Z. to rush into adding stuff like MOB multiplexing correction.

 

-dZ.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Although I agree with the comments above, I do not think there would be a problem in implementing such a facility as an optional feature. At some time in the past, Joe Z. and others were discussing the implementation of different visualisations and graphic effects, like upscaling, etc. I do not know if that was ever done, but it shows you that there is no inherent aversion for flashy features.

 

That said, the priority is indeed as a development tool, so I wouldn't expect Joe Z. to rush into adding stuff like MOB multiplexing correction.

 

Oh, for sure. And like I said, I don't mean to speak for Joe here. I was mostly speaking in a pragmatic sense - until Joe wins the lottery and suddenly has a ton of spare time, I just don't see it being a priority. At least not until jzintv is 100% "done" in terms of hardware-accuracy. There are still the occasional bugs being discovered even today.

 

I'm not against features like this - in fact, I think they've been used to produce some incredible results with (for example) SNES emulators. I pretty much ALWAYS play with certain filters turned on.

 

But an anti-flicker feature would help with a tiny handful of original releases, as far as I understand it. And there's a (perhaps undesired) side-effect of introducing a feature like this: developers could be encouraged to "write for the emulator". Producing games that look great on jzintv, but awful on real hardware. Whether that's a good or bad thing is up for debate. It's certainly been debated ad nauseum on other platforms.

 

Can it happen? Of course! Is it likely to happen? Not anytime soon. Mostly it's just a matter of priority. When I win Powerball I've already decided to set up a trust to fund a certain couple of people to work on this stuff full-time :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is a practical application for emulator tricks similar to this. I heard that some softwares were written for television/CRT displays using the display's unique characteristics to create colours that the computer doesn't produce. These effects are lost when displayed on an LCD display, but an emulator could be programmed to reproduce them. I'm not sure if any Intellivision games are effected by anything like that..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is a practical application for emulator tricks similar to this. I heard that some softwares were written for television/CRT displays using the display's unique characteristics to create colours that the computer doesn't produce. These effects are lost when displayed on an LCD display, but an emulator could be programmed to reproduce them. I'm not sure if any Intellivision games are effected by anything like that..

 

Scanlines, por favor!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But an anti-flicker feature would help with a tiny handful of original releases, as far as I understand it. And there's a (perhaps undesired) side-effect of introducing a feature like this: developers could be encouraged to "write for the emulator". Producing games that look great on jzintv, but awful on real hardware. Whether that's a good or bad thing is up for debate. It's certainly been debated ad nauseum on other platforms.

I don't think a lot of people write for INTV that if they are there they aren't likely to write a Emulator Only game, flicker or not. Usually if you've gotten that far you're more than aware of the 8 MOB limit and the need to respect it, otherwise you might as well just make a modern Flash game rather than bothering with coding at this level.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is a practical application for emulator tricks similar to this. I heard that some softwares were written for television/CRT displays using the display's unique characteristics to create colours that the computer doesn't produce. These effects are lost when displayed on an LCD display, but an emulator could be programmed to reproduce them. I'm not sure if any Intellivision games are effected by anything like that..

Yeah the INTV is exactly the prime candidate for heavy filter use as the resolution and lack of flicker 99% of time negate that. Unless someone comes up with a demo heavy in flicker there isn't much use for flicker based filters.

 

I guess scanlines as freewheel suggests couldn't hurt, I'm not a fan but a lot of people love those horizontal lines. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm sure Joe has something important to ship before he worries about changing jzintv, I wish I could remember what it was.

When he does look again at jzintv again, I can't see "fixing" MOB flicker being on the list, especially since I don't see how you can tell flickering from intentional animation such a a rotating marquee of lights. You would have to do it per game which would be pointless.

 

I'd like a key to toggle display of MOBs and one to toggle BACKTAB. I'd also like a live GRAM viewer like coolcv has, but I'd settle for being able to write the current GRAM table to a gif or bmp similar to how we can F11 a screenshot. I currently have a sub routine to show the GRAM I put in my programs when I'm trying to debug something but it halts the execution as I don't want to bother to save and restore the screen.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I guess scanlines as freewheel suggests couldn't hurt, I'm not a fan but a lot of people love those horizontal lines. :)

 

 

I will admit that I just don't use them as much as I did in the past. I'm finally getting used to the general blockiness of 8/16-bit games on an LCD. But some graphics STILL look way better with scanlines.

 

It's a familiarity thing, like how some people prefer the noise and pops of vinyl.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When he does look again at jzintv again, I can't see "fixing" MOB flicker being on the list, especially since I don't see how you can tell flickering from intentional animation such a a rotating marquee of lights. You would have to do it per game which would be pointless.

Wait why would it have to be done per game, I thought it had a consistent constant of 20 Hz? They don't have to custom flicker tweak every game in Stella do they?

 

There's a big difference between flicker and intention patterns, flickering 2 colors can approximate a 3rd while heaving sprite blitting just makes them semi-transparent or disappear completely. How you can tell is mostly in execution IE. "Ugh I hate all this flickering, it makes the game unplayable." is bad, "Hey look at that demo, it looks like the INTV is rendering more than 16 colors, cool." is good. ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The EXEC updates at a rate of 20 Hz. However, games that bypass the EXEC can update at other rates up to 60 Hz.

 

Worse is Deep Pockets which appears to update at a rate that varies depending on how many pool balls are on the screen.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The EXEC updates at a rate of 20 Hz. However, games that bypass the EXEC can update at other rates up to 60 Hz.

 

Worse is Deep Pockets which appears to update at a rate that varies depending on how many pool balls are on the screen.

Oh that is interesting, didn't realize that was software regulated, thought it was hardware. Well for Deep Pockets that sounds like a good optimization concept but it probably couldn't keep up, with my buddy I was always thinking of optimizations that ultimately defeated the function lol.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...