So Jag vs SNES

[Ite]

Could SNES make the exact games of Doom, Wolfenstein, and Alien vs Predator? Or were we working with more power here?

[Lost Dragon]

Compare Wolfenstein running on stock Super Nintendo hardware, along with Doom running on SNES, which uses the FX 2 Chip and compare these versions with those running on the Jaguar and you'll get clear idea of just how more powerful the Jaguar is.

 

SNES AVP? you'd be looking more along lines of the unfinished Lynx game:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-SbR_454KI

 

Which is something i wish they'd attempted, rather than the awful 2D side scroller on SNES we did end up with, AVP wise.

 

Pity Capcom never brought AVP from coin-op to the SNES (or 32X, Saturn, MCD...hell any home format).

Edited May 5, 2016 by Lost Dragon

[+CyranoJ]

Could SNES make the exact games of Doom, Wolfenstein, and Alien vs Predator? Or were we working with more power here?

 

 

No, but it could make an exact version of this thread....

[Rick Dangerous]

Let's just say Atari Karts didn't need a Super FX chip to rotate and scale.

[walter_J64bit]

Is this the Jag vs 2600 thread?

[toiletunes]

Is this a Chameleon reference?

[Punisher5.0]

Let's just say Atari Karts didn't need a Super FX chip to rotate and scale.

Assuming your talking about Mario Kart? That uses a DSP processor. FZero showed though that the system can do scaling and rotation without an extra chip.

[ave1]

In the 3D polygon racing department, the SNES has one big win: Stunt Race FX.

 

But it loses in the sprite-based racing category to Super Burnout.

[+orpheuswaking]

Can we get a list?

[BladeJunker]

Compared to a SNES or GEN/MD, loads more. Even with the lack of dedicated memory or processors for common engine functions far stronger than 16-bit hardware. Even with the math not quite adding up to 64-bits of powers, far stronger than the SNES.

[walter_J64bit]

Compared to a SNES or GEN/MD, loads more. Even with the lack of dedicated memory or processors for common engine functions far stronger than 16-bit hardware. Even with the math not quite adding up to 64-bits of powers, far stronger than the SNES.

The math not adding up, check this out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qf5tciX9br4

Edited May 6, 2016 by walter_J64bit

[Stage_1_Boss]

The math not adding up, check this out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qf5tciX9br4

Thank you for this link, has been interesting to watch. = )

[BladeJunker]

The math not adding up, check this out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qf5tciX9br4

Heh easy there buddy, that middle area between generations is an odd time for all hardware, 32X, 3DO, and CD-i are pretty confusing in strength level, stronger than SNES for sure though.

 

Nice link though, just started watching that channel.

[Lost Dragon]

3DO gets interesting when you compare it's 2D abilities with that of the SNES though..

 

I've brought up quotes from interplay, Argonaut etc on here before.

 

Plus you've missing parallax layers in Street Fighter 2 Turbo on 3DO..

[BladeJunker]

3DO gets interesting when you compare it's 2D abilities with that of the SNES though..

 

I've brought up quotes from interplay, Argonaut etc on here before.

 

Plus you've missing parallax layers in Street Fighter 2 Turbo on 3DO..

Well the 3DO hid its shortcomings well, never noticed that about SSF2T. Mostly with the Jaguar any flaws are clear as day while the good things go unnoticed. The SNES has a very underpowered CPU but the fan boy heads are so far up their own asses they can't hear that fact.

I mean SNES helper chips are a nice option but it seems like the console itself gets all the credit for that except when it comes to the Super FX chips which even fans acknowledge as separate.

 

With fighting games I'd been thinking maybe the Jaguars ability to set resolution where ever it likes might come in handy for fitting in all the frames usually cut in ports of this time. Like using the SNES res of 256x224 to aid in fitting such large sprite data demands into less memory. It would vary some since SF2 has fewer frames and a smaller size than SSF2T, as does MK1 compared to MK3.

[Lost Dragon]

@BladeJunker:The 2 3DO coder quotes regarding 3DO Vs SNEs in terms of 2D performance:

Bill Heineman(3DO Out Of This World):

"Super Nintendo has Mode 7 where a background image can be rotated and scaled in hardware. All the developer has to do is write to about 6 or 7 registers and instantly the video is altered. On 3DO i have to tell the machine how to draw an image and then it physically has to draw it. The machine is fast enough (almost) to handle just about every effect of SNES Mode 7, but you could still do it a lot faster on the SNES."

Argonaut programmer, Mark Johnston (3DO Creature Shock):

"...Because it's (3DO) only got a single screen, like a PC, effects like multi-layered parallax scrolling are virtually impossible to get running in a single frame.In this kind of game the SNES wipes the floor with it, which is a bit sad when you consider the price difference."

[Atlantis]

Could SNES make the exact games of Doom, Wolfenstein, and Alien vs Predator? Or were we working with more power here?

What do you think yourself?

[Ite]

What do you think yourself?

I think no that SNES couldn't.

[BladeJunker]

 

@BladeJunker:The 2 3DO coder quotes regarding 3DO Vs SNEs in terms of 2D performance:

Bill Heineman(3DO Out Of This World):

"Super Nintendo has Mode 7 where a background image can be rotated and scaled in hardware. All the developer has to do is write to about 6 or 7 registers and instantly the video is altered. On 3DO i have to tell the machine how to draw an image and then it physically has to draw it. The machine is fast enough (almost) to handle just about every effect of SNES Mode 7, but you could still do it a lot faster on the SNES."

Argonaut programmer, Mark Johnston (3DO Creature Shock):

"...Because it's (3DO) only got a single screen, like a PC, effects like multi-layered parallax scrolling are virtually impossible to get running in a single frame.In this kind of game the SNES wipes the floor with it, which is a bit sad when you consider the price difference."

 

Strange quotes when I think about it, consider neither made either genre or used either rendering method in their games, one never made a kart game and the other made an FMV game. Maybe its buried in their resumes somewhere idk.

 

Well I don't have anything to say about frame rate, I don't have the numbers on that. But as far as Mode 7 on 3DO running poorly or being hard to do, I guess that could be true, probably worth trying again.

With the 3DO it just did polygonal race tracks which have a lot more depth. I suppose you could just use a gridded polygonal sheet instead to simulate the look of Mode7 on 3DO, heavy on the subdivision to prevent texture warp. I will say Mode7 is smoother in perspective correction kind of like how raycasting is compared to true texture mapping on this grade of hardware.

 

I don't know about a single frame but Gex has parallax scrolling in it. Can't disagree with the price point aspect, a lot more money for not much more power, that is kind of problem with that whole generation of hardware IE. limited 3D, 240p, hope you like FMV lol. I think to some extent JagCD dodged the FMV craze better than most consoles of the time that are littered with such "games".

[Serguei2]

SNES is not designed for fps games.

 

Jaguar is.

[sd32]

 

@BladeJunker:The 2 3DO coder quotes regarding 3DO Vs SNEs in terms of 2D performance:

Bill Heineman(3DO Out Of This World):

"Super Nintendo has Mode 7 where a background image can be rotated and scaled in hardware. All the developer has to do is write to about 6 or 7 registers and instantly the video is altered. On 3DO i have to tell the machine how to draw an image and then it physically has to draw it. The machine is fast enough (almost) to handle just about every effect of SNES Mode 7, but you could still do it a lot faster on the SNES."

Argonaut programmer, Mark Johnston (3DO Creature Shock):

"...Because it's (3DO) only got a single screen, like a PC, effects like multi-layered parallax scrolling are virtually impossible to get running in a single frame.In this kind of game the SNES wipes the floor with it, which is a bit sad when you consider the price difference."

 

 

Judging by Atari Karts, it must be easier to achieve mode 7 type effects on the Jaguar than on 3DO then.

[sd32]

Strange quotes when I think about it, consider neither made either genre or used either rendering method in their games, one never made a kart game and the other made an FMV game. Maybe its buried in their resumes somewhere idk.

 

Well I don't have anything to say about frame rate, I don't have the numbers on that. But as far as Mode 7 on 3DO running poorly or being hard to do, I guess that could be true, probably worth trying again.

With the 3DO it just did polygonal race tracks which have a lot more depth. I suppose you could just use a gridded polygonal sheet instead to simulate the look of Mode7 on 3DO, heavy on the subdivision to prevent texture warp. I will say Mode7 is smoother in perspective correction kind of like how raycasting is compared to true texture mapping on this grade of hardware.

 

I don't know about a single frame but Gex has parallax scrolling in it. Can't disagree with the price point aspect, a lot more money for not much more power, that is kind of problem with that whole generation of hardware IE. limited 3D, 240p, hope you like FMV lol. I think to some extent JagCD dodged the FMV craze better than most consoles of the time that are littered with such "games".

Yeah, but Gex like many other 3DO 2d games, runs only at 30 fps. Samurai Shodown runs very jerky too, and it doesnt even have parallax, but does have full screen zoom. Super SF2 Turbo runs great, but has no parallax. Johnny Bazokatoon has parallax, but runs very jerky. Then there is Primal Rage, with parallax and running very smooth. Soccer Kid also features parallax and is smooth...but so was the Amiga version.

 

So i guess it was up to the coders, the horse power was there.

[BladeJunker]

Yeah, but Gex like many other 3DO 2d games, runs only at 30 fps. Samurai Shodown runs very jerky too, and it doesnt even have parallax, but does have full screen zoom. Super SF2 Turbo runs great, but has no parallax. Johnny Bazokatoon has parallax, but runs very jerky. Then there is Primal Rage, with parallax and running very smooth. Soccer Kid also features parallax and is smooth...but so was the Amiga version.

 

So i guess it was up to the coders, the horse power was there.

Is 30 fps bad in 2D, is it the dropping below that standard that causes the jerkiness? Must have been hard enough that fewer games had parallax. Watching that video above again it reminded me of how many of the Jaguar CPUs went unused for straight no frills Amiga porting, kind of like the Saturn which had one idle CPU in most titles.

 

3D has a harsh ceiling but I'm certain the Jaguar can do a lot of cool 2D given the chance, not Neo Geo good but far and above the SNES or GEN/MD. It was just the timing as it licensed from 16-bit titles which the Jaguar really had no problem running, too few Raymans and a few too many CGI graphics which didn't age well. Would really like to see modern CGI applied to the Jaguar, just watching Lunacy on the Saturn atm and everybody looks like they are wearing rubber masks.

[sd32]

3D has a harsh ceiling but I'm certain the Jaguar can do a lot of cool 2D given the chance, not Neo Geo good but far and above the SNES or GEN/MD. It was just the timing as it licensed from 16-bit titles which the Jaguar really had no problem running, too few Raymans and a few too many CGI graphics which didn't age well. Would really like to see modern CGI applied to the Jaguar, just watching Lunacy on the Saturn atm and everybody looks like they are wearing rubber masks.

Hmm, from what i have read, i tought the Jaguar should be capable of doing better 2d than the Neo Geo. Better color, more versatility when it comes to resolution, and should be able to push way more sprites with faster scaling and rotation. Jag is also better at transparencies. They both use sprites to generate background layers. The only, and "big" (and its huge) advantage the Neo has over the Jaguar, is the massive amounts of memory at its disposal for instant access

.

I love the Neo Geo, but i think people overrate its 2d capabilities. I guess its because PS1, Saturn and to a degree Dreamcast, struggled with its ports. The real advantage were those massive cartridges, not its 2d capabilities. Jaguar, PS1 and Saturn should be better at 2d, and they better be, since they are quiet newer tech. They just didnt have the RAM/ROM combo comparable with the Neo. But man, does the Neo Geo rock, love that game catalog of 2d heaven!

 

Someone correct me on whatever i am wrong, i came to this conclusions from some tech discussions on othe sites.

Edited May 8, 2016 by sd32

[sd32]

Is 30 fps bad in 2D, is it the dropping below that standard that causes the jerkiness? Must have been hard enough that fewer games had parallax.

 

I dont know. Gex on 3DO, Metal Slug on Neo Geo, Streets of Rage 1 on the Genesis, and Wonder Boy 2 on Sega Master System. They all run at 30fps, and i dont feel they suffer that much from it, they all are outstanding games, in my opinion. Pitfall Mayan Adventure on 32X also runs at 30fps i think, and it feels like crap. Its basically the same game as on SNES and Genesis (were it was a decent game), but runs at half the framerate and feels like crap on 32X. Hmm, could it be that if a games mechanics and timing get coded with the 30fps in mind, the gameplay can still feel fine/smooth?

Edited May 8, 2016 by sd32