Stupid Things You Hear Collectors Say

[98PaceCar]

 

I guess it depends on where you were living at the time. For me, I lived in a very rural area and there were no stores nearby that sold video games. All I had was the Sears mail order catalog, so only new and advertised games were available to me and that catalog was only updated once a year. So it seems my impression is based off of "new and advertised games" and where I was living and not "game availability." Fair enough. So it seems the "console crash" may have lasted anywhere from a few months to several months (1-3 years) depending on availability to purchase games in your area. Also, some people, probably myself included, consider "the console crash" period to have started when games began to be rushed to market, be of poor quality, and basically sucked. Pre-existing good games for bargain prices would be included in the crash period.

 

This is a good point. I didn't live in a terribly large area, but we did have local retailers that carried both console and computer based games. I saw the deep discounts on console stuff, but soon thereafter moved on to full priced Commodore 64 releases so it was pretty much business as usual for me. If the Sears catalog was your main source (and man do I miss getting that catalog!), it would have been a much longer time between the crash and the recovery as I don't remember them ever having much computer software, just hardware.

[Seob]

We got any UK/European gamers who wanna weigh in on 'the NES did/did not save console gaming'? I'm curious because a British guy I watch on Youtube has stated more than once that, due to a late & bungled release, NES didn't take off over in Europe. They mostly played home computers. I'd love to hear some other perspectives on that- I don't want to take one guy's word for it. If it's true though, it really emphasizes the NES being a 'right place right time' product for the American market, as opposed to a worldwide game changer. (Since, as I understand it, Sega ruled Latin America.)

I live in the Netherlands, and console gaming wasn't that big at the time. Most people looked at a console and said, if i pay 50 more i get a computer that can do more, and can be used for homework.

Most people where gaming on the c64 or a msx computer, they where the most populair homecomputers in my area. Later on people moved to the amiga, some to the st, and most to pc's due to the pc at home projects a lot of companies had.

Most consoles i did see in the early days where the a2600 or the philips videopac. Later the Sega mastersystem took over. If i recall both the mastersystem and the megadrive sold better than the Nintendo offers.

[Gentlegamer]

Videogames would likely have evolved to where they are today regardless of nintendo (or not). There is no groundbreaking technology or techniques in the NES that were required for things to turn out as they have today.

 

The business would have looked wholly different, if it existed at all. Nintendo created the entire business model for console platforms that is largely followed to this day.

 

And Nintendo invented the d-pad.

Edited June 1, 2016 by Gentlegamer

[Flojomojo]

 

The business would have looked wholly different, if it existed at all. Nintendo created the entire business model for console platforms that is largely followed to this day.

 

And Nintendo invented the d-pad.

They had their monopolistic death grip on cartridge licensing and manufacturing. I wonder if they would have been as successful had they not been such pricks in the 1980s. Without that, there wouldn't be an industry to build. I don't think Sega or Atari were in a position to duplicate this success. It wasn't the technology that did it, but the business decisions at the right place and time.

 

I mostly agree with what you're saying but modern Microsoft and Sony are a different beast than 1980s Nintendo. Nintendo set the stage, but a proprietary platform is hardly a unique thing, especially in electronics.

[mr_me]

The business would have looked wholly different, if it existed at all. Nintendo created the entire business model for console platforms that is largely followed to this day.

 

And Nintendo invented the d-pad.

Mattel Intellivision's directional pad "disc" came out in 1979, and it has 16 directions. Nintendo's in 1982.

 

Nintendo's cartridge locking was illegal in Europe and should not have been permitted in the US. No one challenged it for some reason.

[EdwardK]

Nintendo's cartridge locking was illegal in Europe and should not have been permitted in the US. No one challenged it for some reason.

 

Do you have any sources for this? Never heard this one and would like to look into it out of curiosity. Not trying to say you're just pulling that one out of left field, it just sounds so strange to me that I feel the urge to know more and particularly why.

[Dashopepper]

Mattel Intellivision's directional pad "disc" came out in 1979, and it has 16 directions. Nintendo's in 1982.

 

Nintendo's cartridge locking was illegal in Europe and should not have been permitted in the US. No one challenged it for some reason.

 

We definitely wouldn't be where we are today without the Intellivision disc, while the d pad is pretty much forgotten...

 

Its also nice that Sony and Microsoft allow unlicensed games on their systems, can't wait to play Custer's Revenge 37 on my PS4.

 

Nintendo almost ruined it for us...

 

(wakes up)

 

oh...

[Osgeld]

id take that over the sloppy razor blades that come on that controller

[HoshiChiri]

The business would have looked wholly different, if it existed at all. Nintendo created the entire business model for console platforms that is largely followed to this day.

Different, yes. Nonexistent? Hardly- as confirmed by a few folks earlier in this thread, NES didn't really catch outside of Japan and the US. While the massive popularity in those countries definitely shaped console gaming as we know it, I find it hard to believe no one would look at the Colecovision/SG-1000/ other mid 80s consoles and not attempt to update them.

 

 

Nintendo's cartridge locking was illegal in Europe and should not have been permitted in the US. No one challenged it for some reason.

 

Atari did- they basically stole the lockout program to make their own carts & then spent years in litigation with Nintendo over the whole thing. Here, watch this vid for an overview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLA_d9q6ySs

[mr_me]

Nintendo's d-pad was a step backward. We lost half the precision and it took years to get that back. Further, Nintendo forced most players to control with their non-dominant hand. Sure thats how many people learned and are comfortable, but without choice and would have possibly been better players using their dominant hand. Many arcade games are left handed but they are also designed to maximise quarters per hour. Why would Nintendo make a left handed controller? Simply because the inventor is left handed.

 

Nintendo Atari case was about copyright infringement, Atari tried to use Nintendo monopoly as a defense but Atari was denied any defense because it was dishonest in obtaining patent information. Nintendo's lockout chip is monopolistic and illegal by anyone's standard. It was not properly challenged and for years Nintendo got away with it. Microsoft was successfully sued by Netscape for doing alot less than what Nintendo got away with.

 

Edit:

Not saying Nintendo's monopoly was good or bad, just saying legally it shouldn't have happened.

Edited June 2, 2016 by mr_me

[+GoldLeader]

Just speaking off the cuff here (and I don't know about Europe), but I don't remember anything about Nintendo's lockout chip being illegal per se; It was their system and they could control the flow of games as they saw fit, just like the dev kits today for modern systems which are tightly controlled. And many companies put out unlicensed games that defeated said chip in various ways. But they did so without using the "key" chip to fit the "lock" so to speak, and they did so without Nintendo's seal of Approval.

 

Now where they did get into trouble for being monopolistic as I recall, was that they tried to strongarm the retailers into only carrying Nintendo products. Basically telling them that if they carried Atari or Sega, they couldn't carry Nintendo. Furthermore they pulled something similar on third party developers who wanted to put out games on competing systems...As Nintendo encountered "chip shortages" which affected game sales, that only seemed to affect certain companies. The companies were being "warned" that they might want to put out games exclusively for Nintendo, or at very least make their Nintendo offerings exclusive.

 

BTW I couldn't agree more that Nintendo's D-Pad felt very "left-handed" when it came out, Especially if you were raised on 80's Arcade games, many of which had the joystick in the center with buttons on both sides, so they could be played Right or Left handed.

[zaneiken]

"It's what I grew up with" in reference to PAL collectors when I tell them NTSC games are cheaper and run at the proper speed.

[Great Hierophant]

Nintendo's d-pad was a step backward. We lost half the precision and it took years to get that back. Further, Nintendo forced most players to control with their non-dominant hand. Sure thats how many people learned and are comfortable, but without choice and would have possibly been better players using their dominant hand. Many arcade games are left handed but they are also designed to maximise quarters per hour. Why would Nintendo make a left handed controller? Simply because the inventor is left handed.

 

Nintendo made the D-pad a far more precise method of controlling two dimensional games than the imprecise Intellivision disc or the terrible 5200 controller. 16 positions was unnecessary for many games and the analog control wasn't really well used either. And when games went to 3-D and demanded more precision, who introduced the first responsive analog stick?

 

What source do you point to to back up the assertion that the inventor is left handed? Japan and other Asian countries tend to discourage left handedness, so the idea of one person dictating the design of a video game controller intended to be used by the nation and going against the grain seems very far-fetched. Instead, I believe the idea that the inventor of the D-pad was very forward thinking and understood that the dominant hand was better at rapidly pressing buttons than the non-dominant hand, which is better suited to broader movement control.

[+FujiSkunk]

My completely non-scientific opinion says handedness doesn't really matter in game controllers anyway. It's certainly never mattered to me. I am no more or less capable of handling a standard Atari joystick, an NES or SMS gamepad, or any other game console controller as the next player. And I'm left-handed.

[78001987]

 

The business would have looked wholly different, if it existed at all. Nintendo created the entire business model for console platforms that is largely followed to this day.

 

And Nintendo invented the d-pad.

Intellivision had a pad-based controller, and Suncom released Atari- Compatible pad controllers long before NES was even an idea.

 

Atari created the business model for consoles. Nintendo monopolized it using shady extortion tactics.

[Professor Gull]

And the collector would say.

"That's a bit off topic."

 

And with that in mind here is another collector quote I got the other day.

 

"My dad worked for Wisdom Tree back in the day so I got all their games that they made along with other neat things like promos and a Wisdom Tree test station."

Me -*nod*

"The bad thing was when we had to move he traded the testing station to the movers cause it was too much to move."

Me-*shakes head*

"Its bad when your dad knows you like stuff and trades it away regardless of asking."

Me-"Wait you still live with your dad?"

[EdwardK]

"Its bad when your dad knows you like stuff and trades it away regardless of asking."

Me-"Wait you still live with your dad?"

 

LOL!! Age estimate, and whats the probability that there is a basement involved?

 

Back on the NES lockout chip thing, How is that any different than Sony denying porn companies to sell their product on Betamax?

 

And back to stupid things you hear collectors say, "I only stick with the classic systems, like PS1 and Nintendo 64." No joke, just heard that today.

[mr_me]

...

Back on the NES lockout chip thing, How is that any different than Sony denying porn companies to sell their product on Betamax?

,,,

Beta wasn't even the more popular format. The technology itself is not illegal but monopolies are. In the late 1980s Nintendo clearly had an illegal monopoly on the north american video game software market and if it was properly challenged the NES lockout chip would have been gone. If Nintendo challenged anyone who legally circumvented the lockout chip they would have lossed. The monopoly somewhat resolved itself when the Sega Genesis came out.

 

Nintendo made the D-pad a far more precise method of controlling two dimensional games than the imprecise Intellivision disc or the terrible 5200 controller. 16 positions was unnecessary for many games and the analog control wasn't really well used either. And when games went to 3-D and demanded more precision, who introduced the first responsive analog stick?

 

What source do you point to to back up the assertion that the inventor is left handed? Japan and other Asian countries tend to discourage left handedness, so the idea of one person dictating the design of a video game controller intended to be used by the nation and going against the grain seems very far-fetched. Instead, I believe the idea that the inventor of the D-pad was very forward thinking and understood that the dominant hand was better at rapidly pressing buttons than the non-dominant hand, which is better suited to broader movement control.

Not saying that the Intellivision d-pad is better or worse (I did say that), only that it predates Nintendo's. I think any of those 2D Nintendo/Sega sports games would have benefited from a controller with more than eight directions. Did people complain about the Vectrex analog stick? I was pleased when Nintendo re-introduced the analog stick.

 

I'm right handed and I prefer using my right hand for the broader movement of the computer mouse and my left hand does okay with all those keyboard buttons. But I'm sure there is some truth to cross-dominant handedness.

 

The NES d-pad was borrowed from the Donkey Kong Game & Watch. That handheld put the control on the left like the arcade game. The arcade game was created by Shigeru Miyamoto. Here's a video of his left-handedness.

 

The inventor of the handheld d-pad was Gunpei Yokoi. I can't find any videos showing his left handedness. Note that his other inventions the Virtual Boy and WonderSwan both had dual d-pads.

Edited June 3, 2016 by mr_me

[EdwardK]

I'm still not convinced that Nintendo had a monopoly in the US. They had superior quality control, better marketing and a nice game library when other systems were already losing popularity in the US and starting to show their age. Meanwhile, they tried to shut down the Game Genie, and failed in US court. None of this seems to support your monopoly theory.

[Great Hierophant]

Space Invaders was also a left handed cabinet, as was Galaga and Galaxian, Radar Scope and probably dozens of clone games before Donkey Kong came out. Even Pac-Man, which does not have a fire button, has a control panel balanced toward the left hand on the joystick. The Japanese convention existed before Miyamoto and DK was essentially a replacement for the poorly performing Radar Scope cabinet.

 

US Companies were a bit mixed. Atari preferred to have movement on the right side, but Williams was usually more disposed to the Japanese convention.

 

The Vectrex did put its analog stick to better us than the 5200, no quarrels there.

[Great Hierophant]

I'm still not convinced that Nintendo had a monopoly in the US. They had superior quality control, better marketing and a nice game library when other systems were already losing popularity in the US and starting to show their age. Meanwhile, they tried to shut down the Game Genie, and failed in US court. None of this seems to support your monopoly theory.

 

Nintendo did try to monopolize the U.S. market and came pretty close to doing so. However, that did not mean that the company never failed to achieve its goals.

 

Nintendo tried to shut down the Game Genie in Canada and failed, so it never bothered to try to shut it down in the US.

 

Nintendo was able to pressure retailers to avoid carrying unlicensed games, this is well-documented. Of course, these days there is no such thing as unlicensed games available for sale for consoles. Every console is well-protected through patent, trade secret and even trademark law.

 

However, it could not tell retailers not to stock Atari or Sega products, that would be too clear an anti-trust violation. What it could do was to tie developers into agreeing not to publish games for competing consoles for a certain length of time. This is why you would often see "reprogrammed game" on Sega Master System titles, essentially the company would licenses out the game to another company to develop for the competing console. Eventually the writing was on the wall for the gobble-up the developer tactics, which was one of the reasons why the Sega Genesis was really able to take off.

[mr_me]

Nintendo's monopoly is in the numbers; from http://www.giantbomb.com/nintendo-entertainment-system/3045-21/

 

"Nintendo's licensing techniques were both revolutionary and for a time, illegal. Nintendo had a veritable monopoly on the market at the time..."

 

US Cumulative Sales1985: 90,000 (New York City) (ref) (ref1986: 1,190,000 (+1,100,000) (73% market share1987: 4,190,000 (+3,000,000) (70% market share1988: 11,190,000 (+7,000,000) (85% market share1989: 20,390,000 (+9,200,000) (80-90% market share1990: 27,590,000 (+7,200,000) (90% market share1991: 30,000,000 (ref

 

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Regarding Space Invaders, Galaxian/Galaga; those are 1-dimensional controls with heavy use of the fire button. And they still might favour left handed players, and the goal of arcade games were to generate quarters per hour. I don't know about you guys but I played pac-man with my right hand.

[EdwardK]

Maybe it's the area I grew up in then, because down here, I never noticed a heavy Nintendo leaning. Hell, I had played on two master systems at friends houses before I ever saw a Nintendo outside of a store shelf. Still don't think that the lockout chip violates any laws here in the US.

 

Edited to add: Meanwhile, I just noticed that these whole off topic rants we've been on for this thread are technically on topic. Thus I hereby nominate everything I have added to this discussion so far as Stupid Things Collectors Say.

Edited June 3, 2016 by EdwardK

[Seob]

"It's what I grew up with" in reference to PAL collectors when I tell them NTSC games are cheaper and run at the proper speed.

And why would that be stupid? Maybe ntsc games are cheaper, but factor in the cost of shipping and all that cheapness is undone.

Btw there are plenty of titles that are cheaper here then the us relative, like stadium event.

Games run faster on ntsc, but why would i care, i'm living in a PAL country, i don't have a direct comparision, so i wouldn't notice the diverence.

So why would it be a stupid thing if a collector says he is used to it.

[Great Hierophant]

NTSC/60fps games not only run faster than most PAL ports, but they also often have a proper music tempo and pitch and always have a more appropriate aspect ratio. If you have never experienced NTSC speed, you have nothing to compare it to. But we can go down this road further of what the original creators intended. Playing an US port of a Japanese game is often one step removed from what the creative team intended. Difficulty levels change, elements get censored, features are added or subtracted and of course there is language translation.