Pre-crash systems are slowly being forgotten.

[Keatah]

Spin-off from this thread:

http://atariage.com/forums/index.php?app=forums&module=post&section=post&do=reply_post&f=125&t=253378&qpid=3524586

 

Wow, you're right! I even gave a "Like" to that post, but I totally forgot about it. I certainly wasn't intentionally trying to steal your words, but I'm sure that your post influenced my thinking, so I went back and added a citation to my earlier post.

 

I've been thinking along similar lines after talking with my college-age students about their perceptions of game history, and also after hearing Pat and Ian discussing in several of their podcasts why the pre-crash consoles are slowly being forgotten, both from a collector's (Pat) and a reseller's (Ian) perspective. I think there are several reasons why this is happening, and at some point I'd like to make them the subject of a new thread. As someone who remembers the pre-crash years pretty well, and as someone who still gets a lot of enjoyment out of the games from that period (including Intellivision games!), it's disconcerting to think that all of the excitement and innovation of those years could be flushed down the memory hole, as if they never happened.

 

The buck stops here. Any future digital archaeologist will have a blast and discover a treasure trove of information if they ever go through my time capsules.

 

Nothing on the internet is permanent. Long lived? Maybe. Sometimes. But sites that host manuals and documentation will drop off the radar over time as their webmasters keel over.

 

I've already run into many many instances where something was available 4 years ago, but not any more. And the only places that stuff likely exists is on select hard drives randomly scattered around the world. Vainly I'd like to think just mine, and mine alone!

 

--

 

The people now making 6 and 7 figure incomes are more likely to have grown up with NES and other post-crash systems. They're the ones whose childhood systems are being thrust into the limelight.

 

People that have sentimental attachment to it are now becoming pre-occupied with old-age stuff, like retirement and nursing homes and fighting who gets the community shower next. Topics of conversation are turning to which disease you have, and what you'd trade it for. Things orders of magnitudes more pertinent than if a copy of Air-Sea Battle sells for $2.00 or $4.00 and whether it is a repro or not.

 

--

 

This is a moving window, and someday the NES proponents of today will be more interested in retirement things and slowly forget about videogames. And perhaps the Playstation 6 will become the hot item.

 

--

 

Classic computers like the Apple II, Atari 400/800, and Commodore 64 seem somewhat more immune to that sliding window of time. They remain timeless and their popularity is holding steady or showing increased interest.

 

In speaking of 8-bit computers, I think we're nearly done with all the single board and S-100 systems of the 70's however. A lot of original owners are senile or dead by now.

 

The Apple II and Commodore Amiga are on an upswing though. Perhaps even exhibiting a positive rate of climb! And interest in classic PC's from the 486 - Pentium 60 era are also taking off now. Actually all CPU classes from the 8086 and DOS games through the Pentium 200 MMX's with Win98 are showing renewed interest.

 

A shame that millions of these machines were dumped as e-waste. I just had to put that in here.

 

 

[HoshiChiri]

How many silent movies have you seen? How many have your kids (if you have them) seen?

 

It's simply the nature of things- our pop culture will wither and die with the generation that created it. Very few properties manage to become timeless. By the time these early games become old enough to seem truly historic/scholarly/worthy of preservation & study, very little will have survived & those future game enthusiasts will bemoan our lack of attention to perseveration. But, you know what? I bet the surviving examples of the earliest of gaming will be due to people like us, trying desperately to keep it out of landfills, opening up units and learning how they work & how to fix them, updating their hardware to make them compatible with devices that didn't exist when they were first made.

 

The best we can do is relay what we love about these old machines to the gamers younger than us. Most of them won't listen. Some will. I did- and as long as I can get another person or two to care, they'll be someone to carry this stuff into its place in history.

[Seob]

It depends how you raise you're kids. From time to time, i will play a laurel and hardy movie for my kids 7 and 5 and they love it. Also chaplin is a good favorite, also because of the netflix animated serie.

[fiddlepaddle]

It's just the way of the world. Most kids today can't even tell you the difference between world war 1 and 2.

 

And, to be brutally honest, someday Atari won't be important to me either. Eventually, it will all become nothing but an academic exercise for the professional historian.

 

Who here really cares about books that came as a result of the invention of the printing press? There were a few high-impact examples that are well known, such as the Christian bible, but many, many crap titles were printed that no one really cares about. Same thing will happen to video games. I'll bet ET is one that is remembered.

 

Oh, I forgot, probably Pong also...

[Dashopepper]

But you're forgetting that 20 years from now people will start saying "Hey remember that crappy Atari/Intellivision/Colecovision Flashback system our Dad forced us to play, I miss that." and the cycle will repeat itself

 

One thing that pre-crash systems doesn't have going for it is the franchises are mostly dead. Nintendo was able to make Earthbound a success and turn it into a $200 game 20 years after it came out by including its characters in current games. My nieces wanted to play a Zelda game after their character got Link's hat in Animal Crossing. So as much as people on here seem to hate Nintendo, they might have the greatest chance of keeping old games relevant for longer and opening new eyes to them.

 

I love pre-crash games but find it easy to take them for granted. Seems like every shoe box at Flea markets and every Goodwill shelf has a couple of games on it. I have sold a couple systems with games recently and am surprised how much I get for them. So I would consider the market to be great especially considering the aforementioned Flashback systems.

 

Sure everything is going to fade into obscurity eventually, but I think pre-crash games will still have some legs for awhile. In fact, I'll keep a system to sell 50 years from now and report back on how I did.

Edited June 6, 2016 by Dashopepper

[thadsilverfox]

As folks get older they are looking to downsize. I know eventually I will want to get rid of my collection instead of letting it sit around collecting dust. My kids have no interest in anything before Xbox 360 so instead of letting it go to waste I will pass it all on to someone else probably at a huge discount to what it sells for in today's market. My gut feeling tells me that this stuff won't matter much when we are all seniors.

[Keatah]

That's right. It won't! At the end of seniorhood you'll spend all day figuring out new ways to get out of bed. No time for classic computing anymore.

[Clint Thompson]

I asked my nephew and a few other kids in his age range (ages 9-14) what other gaming consoles they knew about... typical xbox, ps3 stuff... I then asked if they've ever heard of a Sega Genesis or NES and with the exception of 1 out of like 5, all of them had no idea. Then their faces were even more puzzles when I started mentioning CD32, Jaguar, Saturn. Not even Dreamcast. There's no hope...

[Rick Dangerous]

You have to use your hands? It's like a babies toy?!

 

Good maybe then prices will come down a little.....lol

[TPA5]

That's right. It won't! At the end of seniorhood you'll spend all day figuring out new ways to get out of bed. No time for classic computing anymore.

 

I hope I die before that point.

[mbd30]

I asked my nephew and a few other kids in his age range (ages 9-14) what other gaming consoles they knew about... typical xbox, ps3 stuff... I then asked if they've ever heard of a Sega Genesis or NES and with the exception of 1 out of like 5, all of them had no idea. Then their faces were even more puzzles when I started mentioning CD32, Jaguar, Saturn. Not even Dreamcast. There's no hope...

You'd think that they'd know about NES, etc. because of popular YouTube series such as AVGN.

[4Ks]

Nothing truly ever dies, not on the internet. There will always be people studying and preserving cultural artifacts from way back when. There are people whose hobbies are finding and restoring bar paraphernalia from the 1920s-1950s, people who record ancient languages, people who collect old books and scan into digital form, etc. Just about anything you can think of, someone is working to keep it alive. Video games will be no different. Hell, AtariAge itself is proof of that.

[thadsilverfox]

You have to use your hands? It's like a babies toy?!

 

Good maybe then prices will come down a little.....lol

There is no doubt in my mind that the common stuff will come down in price albeit slowly. The only question is when does it peak out.

 

Examples of things loosing value over time:

 

Vintage metal lunch boxes became a major collectible in the late 1980s, and by the 1990s, some were selling for thousands of dollars. But today, few lunch boxes fetch more than $100, and most bring much less.

 

Autographed sports memorabilia have declined sharply in value in the past decade. Collectors are disenchanted as it has become clear that many autographs are forgeries.

 

Limited-edition Barbie dolls have been declining significantly in value. As with most other “limited edition” toys, these were toys in name only— most were never played with, just set aside as investments, so they never became any rarer. Meanwhile, Mattel issued so many different limited-edition Barbies over the years that few collectors could collect them all, and most stopped trying.

 

Hummel figurines once sold for hundreds of dollars apiece, but the generation that appreciated these little porcelain statues is now downsizing or dying off, dumping Hummels back into the market by the thousands. Younger generations have little interest in buying them. Most used Hummels now sell for no more than $75 in shops, with prices likely to continue to fall as more Hummels reach the market.

 

Cookie jars became a hot collecting category after Andy Warhol’s cookie jar collection was auctioned for steep prices following his 1987 death. For a while, collectors were paying hundreds or occasionally thousands of dollars for cookie jars that weren’t even very old. Eventually people figured out that Warhol’s cookie jars were valuable only because Warhol owned them, not because cookie jars themselves have any great collectible value.

 

Happy Meal Toys, Hot Wheels, Beanie Babies, Baseball Cards, etc...

 

There are always some exceptions.

Edited June 6, 2016 by thadsilverfox

[7800fan]

Beanie Babies. At one time you had to fight people at McDonald's. I heard someone once ordered hundred Happy Meals, hold the food and drinks. Today those are Goodwill fodder.

 

Ask the kids today what the oldest portable game system is. I bet no one remembers Microvision which predated Gameboy by a decade. If the kids said iPhone is the oldest portable game system, I'll sign for that one way trip to Mars.

[BassGuitari]

Beanie Babies. At one time you had to fight people at McDonald's. I heard someone once ordered hundred Happy Meals, hold the food and drinks. Today those are Goodwill fodder.

 

Ask the kids today what the oldest portable game system is. I bet no one remembers Microvision which predated Gameboy by a decade. If the kids said iPhone is the oldest portable game system, I'll sign for that one way trip to Mars.

How could someone remember something that had faded to obscurity before they were even born? Knowing what something is and remembering it shouldn't be equivocated.

 

I'm very familiar with things like the First World War, the football career of Bart Starr, Fender guitars of the 1950s, and videogames of the 1970s, but being born in 1985, I can't say I "remember" any of them.

 

Beanie Babies, though, god. I thought those things were going to take over the world. My grandfather was good friends with the owner of some of the McDonald's franchises in town and was able to set us up with complete sets of all the Beanie Babies that were available. They were quite valuable for a little while, but certainly not anymore. I don't even know if my mom still has them; she might have given them to Neighbor's Place (sort of like a Boys & Girls Club/childrens' shelter) or just thrown them out.

 

Sidebar: one thing I kind of miss from 1996: Tamagotchis.

[Flojomojo]

I think there will always be enthusiasts for old stuff, but it makes perfect sense for more polished eras to be liked more than the earliest stuff. Automobile collectors don't show off old Ford Model T cars, they're more into 1963 Corvettes. Why shouldn't game people prefer NES and Super Nintendo to Atari and Intellivision?

 

I'm not interested in collecting old cars at all, I just like having something that is reliable and starts every time. I can look at pictures of the old cars and see them at car shows if I really feel the urge. Computers can and should be the same way. I can relive the olden days via the Console Living Room whenever I want, on just about any modern machine.

 

Like many people, including thrift stores in 2016, I'm not interested in having a janky old CRT television in my house, but it doesn't mean I've completely forgotten. I've just moved on. All the time and effort that went into the pre-crash era of games? Down the memory hole for most, because after all, games of that kind really were a fad, like Beanie Babies or pet rocks. Nothing says 1980s more than a giant coin-op arcade cabinet, but a Rubik's Cube fits in your pocket.

 

Video games are forever, but Atari and Magnavox and Mattel and Coleco are dead and buried. It's OK, it's the way of everything.

[7800fan]

How could someone remember something that had faded to obscurity before they were even born? Knowing what something is and remembering it shouldn't be equivocated.

 

if the kids said iPhone is where I would have problem. Many of the kids would have heard about the Gameboy and likely assumed they are the first portable system.

[Keatah]

if the kids said iPhone is where I would have problem. Many of the kids would have heard about the Gameboy and likely assumed they are the first portable system.

 

Would kids even be interested in a Gameboy anymore? Yes, if it was the only portable gaming option. But side-by-side against an iPhone? Forget it. The Gameboy goes in the 'cycling bin.

[Guest LiqMat]

As folks get older they are looking to downsize. I know eventually I will want to get rid of my collection instead of letting it sit around collecting dust. My kids have no interest in anything before Xbox 360 so instead of letting it go to waste I will pass it all on to someone else probably at a huge discount to what it sells for in today's market. My gut feeling tells me that this stuff won't matter much when we are all seniors.

 

So true! I am at mid-life right now and I got an early start. I started selling everything off when I turned 40. I wanted to have experiences rather than things. Then... I visited that damn PRGE thing in Portland and it screwed up all my plans. I now have old computers, consoles and games sitting in a far off closet while I travel. Why? Because it's PRGE's fault. They made that "thing" to weaken my resolve. -=BUT=- there is hope. I plan on getting rid of it all again when I get back to that far off place where they live and as always, starting at $1. Emulation has become so good I honestly get just as much enjoyment with it. I do still buy software that reads easily on my laptop's DVD drive like Sega Saturn CDs and rip them so I can play them on an emulator. I just find I enjoy games the most that are 2005 and back with a few modern indie exceptions.

 

As far as collectors go I think it will go full circle like others have said. There will be renewed interest in all of it as the generations pass, but unfortunately because of age emulators will be more and more their gateway to see the software in action as the classic hardware will start to crumble decades from now.

 

I am fighting nostalgia as we speak because I owned one and in the end it is too expensive anyway, but my goodness I can't believe this guy has new and sealed units. By me finding this though I discovered they made a specific version of the Pitfall II cart for this system which I was unaware of and it's a really nice version of the game, BUT the cart is nowhere to be found and I can't find a ROM either. Sigh... Will this sickness end? LOL

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-IN-THE-BOX-Vintage-IBM-PCjr-Computer-Model-4863-0267-/301810890026?hash=item464554b52a:g:Iz0AAOSwv-NWWn9v

Edited June 7, 2016 by LiqMat

[Keatah]

I think there will always be enthusiasts for old stuff, but it makes perfect sense for more polished eras to be liked more than the earliest stuff. Automobile collectors don't show off old Ford Model T cars, they're more into 1963 Corvettes. Why shouldn't game people prefer NES and Super Nintendo to Atari and Intellivision?

 

I'm not interested in collecting old cars at all, I just like having something that is reliable and starts every time. I can look at pictures of the old cars and see them at car shows if I really feel the urge. Computers can and should be the same way. I can relive the olden days via the Console Living Room whenever I want, on just about any modern machine.

 

Like many people, including thrift stores in 2016, I'm not interested in having a janky old CRT television in my house, but it doesn't mean I've completely forgotten. I've just moved on. All the time and effort that went into the pre-crash era of games? Down the memory hole for most, because after all, games of that kind really were a fad, like Beanie Babies or pet rocks. Nothing says 1980s more than a giant coin-op arcade cabinet, but a Rubik's Cube fits in your pocket.

 

Video games are forever, but Atari and Magnavox and Mattel and Coleco are dead and buried. It's OK, it's the way of everything.

 

..and that's what an emulation collection is all about. Thank you!

 

It's reliable, starts every time, and comes with plenty of documentation and pictures, schematics and manuals scans; to look at. All without the hassle of tediously foraging for the stuff in the "wild". All without the burden and time consumption of dick'n'round with rat-bag physical items.

 

Sure, there's gonna be some collectards that go for the real thing and gotta get'em all. But they're just as rare as those huge classic car collections. So far out of ordinary experience they might not as well exist. And what good is that? How can you enjoy the stuff. Cool to look at, absolutely. Cool to maintain, not so much.

 

Anyhow the pre-NES generation material will fade and only memories will remain. And emulation is perfect to preserve them.

 

I no longer play the first 8-bit classics with zest except for a few select games. And even then it's about triggering and remembering the good times more than developing new strategies or getting a new hi-score. How many new forum discussions center around Slot Racers' strategies? Or Basic Math time trials?

 

I'm glad I curated a virtual collection when I did, because, now, I don't see myself having the time and patience. Too many more exciting things to do. But I'll be still updating and working with it in a standby low-priority style.

 

I'm also glad I don't have the burden of maintaining 30 consoles and baggie chasing after them either. I have time for 1 or 2 at best. That's the Apple II stuff. That's MORE than enough for me.

[Keatah]

Normally I don't quote "full-size" posts in their entirety, but some make good points.. So..

 

 

So true! I am at mid-life right now and I got an early start. I started selling everything off when I turned 40. I wanted to have experiences rather than things. Then... I visited that damn PRGE thing in Portland and it screwed up all my plans. I now have old computers, consoles and games sitting in a far off closet while I travel. Why? Because it's PRGE's fault. They made that "thing" to weaken my resolve. -=BUT=- there is hope. I plan on getting rid of it all again when I get back to that far off place where they live and as always, starting at $1. Emulation has become so good I honestly get just as much enjoyment with it. I do still buy software that reads easily on my laptop's DVD drive like Sega Saturn CDs and rip them so I can play them on an emulator. I just find I enjoy games the most that are 2005 and back with a few modern indie exceptions.

 

As far as collectors go I think it will go full circle like others have said. There will be renewed interest in all of it as the generations pass, but unfortunately because of age emulators will be more and more their gateway to see the software in action as the classic hardware will start to crumble decades from now.

 

I am fighting nostalgia as we speak because I owned one and in the end it is too expensive anyway, but my goodness I can't believe this guy has new and sealed units. By me finding this though I discovered they made a specific version of the Pitfall II cart for this system which I was unaware of and it's a really nice version of the game, BUT the cart is nowhere to be found and I can't find a ROM either. Sigh... Will this sickness end? LOL

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-IN-THE-BOX-Vintage-IBM-PCjr-Computer-Model-4863-0267-/301810890026?hash=item464554b52a:g:Iz0AAOSwv-NWWn9v

 

To the masses and the average gamer. The meat and potatoes. There's nothing unfortunate about having emulators carry the flag. It's the emulators which will enable hi-fidelity play of games like Miniature Golf, Demon Attack, Fishing Derby, Star Raiders, and thousands upon thousands of other 8-bit softwares. It's the emulators that will keep these games alive and at the ready for anyone who wants to see what they were like.

 

As I prepare to go into "maintenance mode" or "cruise phase" with pre-NES material I can truly say it's been a fun and impressive ride.

 

To me, and you may rag on me for saying it, but there is nothing special or different about a VCS positioned in front of an old CRT. It's about the time, the atmosphere, the care-free attitude when nothing mattered but the games, the camaraderie and friends, the coziness of gathering around the new hearth on a sub-zero windy day off from school. With the anticipation of getting new electronics something-or-other later in the day.. A stack of EGM on the table, frozen chicken dinners in the oven.. All that.. You can re-experience those times with a high-quality emulation setup or perhaps the Z3K if it makes it to market. No need to fight with balky hardware today or tie yourself up in ebay auctions or filtering through Craig's List scammers. No need to clean up someone else's dirty ratbag console.

 

Let them pass on in peace, they served their purpose. They created good times and great memories. They created exciting holidays and kindled new childhood friendships, some of which may endure today. Let us enshrine them by creating the best possible emulators - so that their legacy may live on for generations to come.

[Guest LiqMat]

Normally I don't quote "full-size" posts in their entirety, but some make good points.. So..

 

 

 

To the masses and the average gamer. The meat and potatoes. There's nothing unfortunate about having emulators carry the flag. It's the emulators which will enable hi-fidelity play of games like Miniature Golf, Demon Attack, Fishing Derby, Star Raiders, and thousands upon thousands of other 8-bit softwares. It's the emulators that will keep these games alive and at the ready for anyone who wants to see what they were like.

 

As I prepare to go into "maintenance mode" or "cruise phase" with pre-NES material I can truly say it's been a fun and impressive ride.

 

To me, and you may rag on me for saying it, but there is nothing special or different about a VCS positioned in front of an old CRT. It's about the time, the atmosphere, the care-free attitude when nothing mattered but the games, the camaraderie and friends, the coziness of gathering around the new hearth on a sub-zero windy day off from school. With the anticipation of getting new electronics something-or-other later in the day.. A stack of EGM on the table, frozen chicken dinners in the oven.. All that.. You can re-experience those times with a high-quality emulation setup or perhaps the Z3K if it makes it to market. No need to fight with balky hardware today or tie yourself up in ebay auctions or filtering through Craig's List scammers. No need to clean up someone else's dirty ratbag console.

 

Let them pass on in peace, they served their purpose. They created good times and great memories. They created exciting holidays and kindled new childhood friendships, some of which may endure today. Let us enshrine them by creating the best possible emulators - so that their legacy may live on for generations to come.

 

LOL... after that speech I feel like we are about to embark upon a quest. You must be the Retro Avatar prophecies spoke about.

[HoshiChiri]

No need to clean up someone else's dirty ratbag console.

 

 

But I LOVE cleaning up someone else's dirty ratbag console! It's one of the best parts of collecting! It's like taking a thing that was dying forgotten in a corner or a bin, and making it matter again. I guess this old cartoon sums it up:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTF6v3ejaJQ

[wolfy62]

I understand the whole conversation as an old gamer, and I am leaning towards multicarts for most systems, maybe emulation for others,boxed for my Intellivision as my collection is way too cool to break up,and selling off tons of boxed stuff off for my other systems.

 

All subjective and naturally everyone has to play and collect the way they see it best. Game and collecting on.......Wolfy

[Flojomojo]

Would kids even be interested in a Gameboy anymore? Yes, if it was the only portable gaming option. But side-by-side against an iPhone? Forget it. The Gameboy goes in the 'cycling bin.

Well, it does have buttons, and a nice large library. GBA SP and Micro hardware still does pretty well on eBay, more than 10 years past its prime. Of course, I was still collecting Atari and other retro stuff in 1994, so it's likely even great old GBA will fade away.