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SainT

Upcoming Jaguar Game Drive Cartridge

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There's nothing wrong with the Everdrives.

All of this is fallout from dbelectronics' poorly worded (or malicious) scare-post.

 

It's been debunked by people that know more than he does.

Ignore it and use your Everdrives in peace.

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Ha, I have an Everdrive X7 for my Sega Genesis. Only issue I've ran into it is with the Multi-Tap and save states. In playing Gauntlet IV, if you use a save state with more than two players (well at least I had 3) and then you try to load it, it confuses the controllers, so one player is controlling two characters. It was really bizarre.

So instead when we play, we have to enter in this massive password, then take a picture of the screen at the end of the play session to save it. Kicking it old school, as the shirt I'm wearing currently says. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01LW8ZYJ6/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't Retron systems basically rom dumpers connected to emulation hardware? They dump the cart then load it into the emulator (which isn't 100% compatible with all games). If emulating the system anyway I prefer something like a retropi, PC, or another retro system that loads roms from an SD card already. An expensive flash cart to turn your roms into a cartridge so it can be dumped back into a rom that's loaded on an emulator seems like a very unnecessary step. The fact I want to play on original hardware (or maybe eventually some fpga based clones that are simulating the original hardware) is the only reason I need flash carts.

 

I understand they do some communication with the cart for saves, and they aren't dumping the whole everdrive SD card, so menus can load additional content from the cart, but still I thought it basically boiled down to something very similar to this.

Edited by Hastor

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There's nothing wrong with the Everdrives.

All of this is fallout from dbelectronics' poorly worded (or malicious) scare-post.

 

It's been debunked by people that know more than he does.

Ignore it and use your Everdrives in peace.

 

What exactly has been "debunked" and by whom? Screenshot or link or it didn't happen.

 

There are lot of people twisting what he said into a strawman argument and then claiming that because no one's Genesis has caught fire when a flash cart was plugged in that he can't be correct, but I've yet to find anyone with equal or better qualifications that disagrees with anything he _actually_ said. Krikzz got upset because his customers started complaining that his carts were going to damage their consoles but he was already in the process of switching his designs over to using level shifters, indirectly acknowledging that he agreed with Rene. The only people that seem to get mad about this are the people who are going to lose money either because they're selling something that's designed improperly, or they've paid a lot of money for something that's designed improperly.

 

What is it you _think_ Rene said?

 

What he actually said was that failure to use level shifters would put the consoles and cartridges outside their operating tolerances requiring resistors in both to need to dissipate more heat than they were selected to handle. Law of conservation of energy - scientific laws are very few, but the ones we do have are inarguable. Then Rene went on to demonstrate and prove it with objective measurements. Semiconductors have a finite lifespan and operating them outside of their designed tolerances will shorten it - find an electronics engineer who honestly disagrees with that statement and I'll show you someone unqualified to hold that title. Whether that component's lifespan is 100 years and you're shaving off one, or it's 30 years and you're shaving off 20 depends on the context and a certain degree of luck, but the logic is fairly universal. We have tolerances for a reason. Sometimes those tolerances are so conservative that we never notice the impact of working outside them, other times we're not so lucky.

 

Maybe it won't destroy your Genesis use a flash cart with 3.3v flash chips and resistors instead of level shifters, but there's no question that it's operating outside of its design parameters and producing more heat than a normal cartridge or a flash cart with level shifters. Everyone should inform themselves and decide whether to take that risk. FYI, I believe the risk is actually higher that the cartridge will fail than the console. The chances of your console or cart failing immediately are, of course, very low, but we're not talking about blowing a fuse, we're talking about fatigue that takes place over time.

Unless you're willing to put your money where your mouth is and agree to replace consoles for the people you're handing out advice to should those consoles ever be damaged by cartridges that cause them to operate outside their voltage specs, I think it would be better to just tell people the facts and let them make that decision for themselves rather than tell everyone that it's perfectly fine when you do not, in point of fact, know that.

 

FWIW - two of my Everdrives fall out of spec and I still use them anyway because the consoles are old workhorses and I doubt they'll ever die. I just can't stand intellectual dishonesty and telling people there is zero risk is intellectually dishonest.

Edited by samson7point1

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I don't think anyone said zero risk. In my post I simply said I hadn't had problems despite owning nearly every everdrive. Of course all these things have some sort of risk associated with them. Even a non licensed game can have risks as who knows what it was made with. Probably some licensed stuff at some point for something. I think by using a flash cart you are accepting any risks. No cart maker is going to replace a failed console, nor should they.

 

I do think the facts are important, but so are statistics and experiences of others. I think it is outside of 'perfectly safe' but farther from 'your console is dying' than that article leads one to believe, even if they don't say it outright. Had I read it before getting everdrives I would have avoided them, but as I'd been using them for years when I read it, I'm glad I've had them to enjoy, and replacing an old console is a risk I'm willing to accept in order to enjoy them.

Edited by Hastor
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What exactly has been "debunked" and by whom? Screenshot or link or it didn't happen.

If you can't be bothered to look for yourself, I'm certainly not going to do it for you.

I'm satisfied with what I have read from various sources that using Everdrives is not going to subject my consoles to abnormal wear.

If you choose to go along with Rene and his unprovable, alarmist pseudo-theories, go right ahead.

 

I've personally heard enough about this topic to last a lifetime, and this thread is in danger of coming off the rails.

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Even turning these things on is bad for them. Best to unplug them all and keep them locked in a closet in their original shrink wrap.

Ha, I thi k the Jag was in a plastic bag and cardboard holding it in the box, wasn't it? Nit fully shrink wrapped.

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If you can't be bothered to look for yourself, I'm certainly not going to do it for you.

I'm satisfied with what I have read from various sources that using Everdrives is not going to subject my consoles to abnormal wear.

If you choose to go along with Rene and his unprovable, alarmist pseudo-theories, go right ahead.

 

I've personally heard enough about this topic to last a lifetime, and this thread is in danger of coming off the rails.

So, the answer is actually "no", no one has debunked anything and after you personally brought up and supported an indefensible position you're suddenly tired of the whole thing and worried that the thread is going off the rails. If you've had enough about the topic to last a lifetime, maybe stop wading into it you know? I'm not sure that a "pseudo-theory" is really a thing, but if it is, I imagine supporting and propagating a position you apparently don't understand would qualify as it doesn't even meet the threshold of a real opinion.

 

 

 

On the topic of the Jag SD cart which is what people are really here for, is there any challenge with the cart supporting any of the unofficial releases like Another World? From what I've read that one has a pretty unique structure really pushes the Jag hardware, but I have precious little actual detail.

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On the topic of the Jag SD cart which is what people are really here for, is there any challenge with the cart supporting any of the unofficial releases like Another World? From what I've read that one has a pretty unique structure really pushes the Jag hardware, but I have precious little actual detail.

lul wut?

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lul wut?

Ha, yeah I was thinking the same thing. I'm fairly certain the Jaguar doesn't even bat an eye at Another World. While it does support the new 256 color mode.. it's still just 256 colors.

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Even turning these things on is bad for them. Best to unplug them all and keep them locked in a closet in their original shrink wrap.

Just as long as you replace all the caps, it will be ok. All equipment needs every cap replaced.

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If you can't be bothered to look for yourself, I'm certainly not going to do it for you.

I'm satisfied with what I have read from various sources that using Everdrives is not going to subject my consoles to abnormal wear.

If you choose to go along with Rene and his unprovable, alarmist pseudo-theories, go right ahead.

 

I've personally heard enough about this topic to last a lifetime, and this thread is in danger of coming off the rails.

That's a piss-poor cop-out after making an out-of-line remark that has no basis in reality. Rene has explained many times now (on Youtube in fact), that the law of thermodynamics PROVES the heat will be generated in the flash cart without level shifters. So if anything, it causes a shortened life-span of the flash cart itself, not the console. (Edit: Actually there is stress to the console as well, based on excessive current the digital out lines have to feed)

 

The only point speculation comes in is on how much of a shortened life span the flash cart will cause. It may last 30 years or it may last only 10 years, and even that entirely depends on how much you use it every day. The key point though, is you can totally avoid even worrying about this problem by using level shifters in the first place. Hence why Krikzz started implementing them in later revisions. Had Rene been 'maliciously' making shit up, NOBODY would be even bothering to use level shifters. Now everyone that has half a brain and makes flash carts uses them. So how was that debunked again?

Edited by Karbuncle

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So, the answer is actually "no", no one has debunked anything and after you personally brought up

I didn't bring it up.

And I'm still not doing it for you. :-)

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On the topic of the Jag SD cart which is what people are really here for, is there any challenge with the cart supporting any of the unofficial releases like Another World? From what I've read that one has a pretty unique structure really pushes the Jag hardware, but I have precious little actual detail.

 

Anything that runs from a standard cart will run. I've had Another World running. :)

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That's a piss-poor cop-out after making an out-of-line remark that has no basis in reality. Rene has explained many times now (on Youtube in fact), that the law of thermodynamics PROVES the heat will be generated in the flash cart without level shifters. So if anything, it causes a shortened life-span of the flash cart itself, not the console. (Edit: Actually there is stress to the console as well, based on excessive current the digital out lines have to feed)

 

The only point speculation comes in is on how much of a shortened life span the flash cart will cause. It may last 30 years or it may last only 10 years, and even that entirely depends on how much you use it every day. The key point though, is you can totally avoid even worrying about this problem by using level shifters in the first place. Hence why Krikzz started implementing them in later revisions. Had Rene been 'maliciously' making shit up, NOBODY would be even bothering to use level shifters. Now everyone that has half a brain and makes flash carts uses them. So how was that debunked again?

 

I remember when this all kicked off. From what I remember of the everdrives which were suspect, Krikzz actually followed a recommended way of interfacing the FPGA with 5v inputs directly from an app note on the FPGA datasheet (I read through it myself at the time). So some of it was rather blown up out of proportion. If the silicon designer recommends an approach, who are we to say they are wrong? That all sounds rather arrogant.

 

The other carts, however, like the 5million-in-one carts which just hooked up a 3.3v flash directly to 5v with no means of limiting current really are very bad.

 

So, yeah, take with a pinch of salt and be very careful with multi-carts! :)

Edited by SainT
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Anyways, this is a non-issue on the Jaguar, because all of the homebrew hardware that I know of (Skunkboard, Jagtopus and SainT's SD cart) use either 5V-compatible components or proper level shifters.

Edited by Zerosquare
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I remember when this all kicked off. From what I remember of the everdrives which were suspect, Krikzz actually followed a recommended way of interfacing the FPGA with 5v inputs directly from an app note on the FPGA datasheet (I read through it myself at the time). So some of it was rather blown up out of proportion. If the silicon designer recommends an approach, who are we to say they are wrong? That all sounds rather arrogant.

 

 

Here's the simple response to that: Krikzz wouldn't have changed to level shifters in newer revisions had it simply been a case of "who are we to say they are wrong?" Remember that applied physics like this isn't up for debate. When someone shows how it's actually an inferior method compared to level shifters with simple math and demonstrations of what happens to the leftover energy, it can't be reasonably blown off as an 'opinion'. Math is not an opinion.

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Just as long as you replace all the caps, it will be ok. All equipment needs every cap replaced.

I have a morbid fear of old caps... :(

 

I've replaced all the caps in all of my consoles and related equipment (consoles, controllers, PSUs, even memory cards. Anywhere I find a cap) that was made prior to 2000.

The only exception being my Wide-boy, the high value of which motivated me to change the caps anyway.

 

Old caps are the devil.

Little shits just waiting to piss their horror fluid out and destroy the universe!

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Here's the simple response to that: Krikzz wouldn't have changed to level shifters in newer revisions had it simply been a case of "who are we to say they are wrong?" Remember that applied physics like this isn't up for debate. When someone shows how it's actually an inferior method compared to level shifters with simple math and demonstrations of what happens to the leftover energy, it can't be reasonably blown off as an 'opinion'. Math is not an opinion.

Nor are manufacturers specs.

If the entire world suddenly jumped on you and said "this guy says you're doing it wrong ZOMG!" you can either sit and argue until you're blue in the face or just take the easy route and switch.

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