Question about sprite flickering, frame rate, and the meaning of life...

[+opcode]

I have been playing a lot of Inty games, I have noticed that most of them are on the easy side, usually kind of slow, and almost never show any sprite flickering. Please understand, this isn't a criticism, I am not complaining, just curious. The other thing I noticed is that some games, specially Mattel releases, runs at a kind of poor frame rate.

So I was wondering, what bothers you most in a game, a low frame rate or sprite flickering? Let's say, what would you prefer, a 20fps game with no flicker, or a game with some flicker (20Hz worst case) but that runs at a super smooth 60fps?

[+Stephen]

I prefer the full frame rate, but I suppose it depends on how bad the flicker is. I certainly wouldn't prefer a full frame 30Hz flicker over a 30Hz game without flicker.

[+Tarzilla]

You need to understand the slow games are slow because the Inty has a built in library/framework called The Exec. It runs at 20fps. It was included in the console to save cart space by providing library routines.

 

Third party games did not use the Exec because it belonged to Mattel. Multiplexing sprites (MOBs) was forbidden by management.

 

You can easily skip the Exec and get the full speed.

 

General opinion is flickering sucks, except in certain cases.

[pimpmaul69]

I can deal with some flicker. Its nothing out of the norm for older games.

[mr_me]

You can have both 60hz and flicker free. The 20 Hz system was built into the system rom "exec" so early games made use of it. Later once cartridge roms got larger they stopped using the "exec" and programmed 60Hz games. Dreadnaught Factor and Worm Whomper are good examples of 60Hz smoothly animated objects.

 

The low frame rate doesn't bother me but choppy animation does. Ie. when an object has to jump pixels for speed. Avoid flickering objects unless its absolutely necessary.

[the1hatman]

Sprite flickering? I'm afraid I know nothing about programming.

Frame rate? Can't code things either.

 

The meaning of life? That's an easy one... 42

[pimpmaul69]

Sprite flickering? I'm afraid I know nothing about programming.

Frame rate? Can't code things either.

 

The meaning of life? That's an easy one... 42

do you have any idea how many people dont know the answer when i ask them if they know the answer to "life, the universe, and everything?"

 

Edit: i just asked Siri and she didnt even know the answer

Edited June 21, 2016 by pimpmaul69

[fdr4prez]

[Kiwi]

D2K on the Intellvision have both flicker and 60hz. It flickers the enemy MOBs because you could only have 8 of them on screen at a time. It controls really well on the real Intellivision.

 

My experience with IntyBASIC. I ported over what I learned from making Colecovision and Petit Computer games over to Intellivision to test out my frame work. Generic ship shootem up I made. I made the player's ship move at 60hz. I multiplex the ship's shot into 3 shots while leaving the enemies(objects) at 6 solid MOBs, run them at 20hz. And also had it background scrolling.

 

I multiplex'd the bombs in Mad Bomber, which is a Kaboom clone making 8 bombs at a time. I find it distracting and the busy backdrop may make it hard to see the bombs. So I decided to remove one basket color and redraw it, and got rid of the multiplexing bombs and just have 5 at a time. I had to make sure it run at 60hz at all time so the collusion detect works perfectly.

 

I'm sure other developers will chime in and share their experience working with the Intellivision hardware.

Edited June 21, 2016 by Kiwi

[pimpmaul69]

D2K on the Intellvision have both flicker and 60hz. It flickers the enemy MOBs because you could only have 8 of them on screen at a time. It controls really well on the real Intellivision.

 

My experience with IntyBASIC. I ported over what I learned from making Colecovision and Petit Computer games over to Intellivision to test out my frame work. Generic ship shootem up I made. I made the player's ship move at 60hz. I multiplex the ship's shot into 3 shots while leaving the enemies(objects) at 6 solid MOBs, run them at 20hz. And also had it background scrolling.

 

I multiplex'd the bombs in Mad Bomber, which is a Kaboom clone making 8 bombs at a time. I find it distracting and the busy backdrop may make it hard to see the bombs. So I decided to remove one basket color and redraw it, and got rid of the multiplexing bombs and just have 5 at a time. I had to make sure it run at 60hz at all time so the collusion detect works perfectly.

 

I'm sure other developers will chime in and share their experience working with the Intellivision hardware.

if i remember the video correctly your bombs were red or something. I think i remember thinking if you had black bombs it would be easier to see. And i dont think flicker would be so hard on the eyes with black

[Kiwi]

if i remember the video correctly your bombs were red or something. I think i remember thinking if you had black bombs it would be easier to see. And i dont think flicker would be so hard on the eyes with black

I did remembered reading that red is hard to see on green background so that gave me an idea to put in option menu to remove the background to a solid color, change basket size, change bgcolor, and bombs color to be in color, white or black.

[pimpmaul69]

I did remembered reading that red is hard to see on green background so that gave me an idea to put in option menu to remove the background to a solid color, change basket size, change bgcolor, and bombs color to be in color, white or black.

i think black bombs would make the flicker tolerable. Red was just hard to see on green anyway and im not color blind. I would like to see 8 bombs in black with flicker. If you ever decide to make a video doing that.

[DZ-Jay]

I have been playing a lot of Inty games, I have noticed that most of them are on the easy side, usually kind of slow, and almost never show any sprite flickering. Please understand, this isn't a criticism, I am not complaining, just curious. The other thing I noticed is that some games, specially Mattel releases, runs at a kind of poor frame rate.

So I was wondering, what bothers you most in a game, a low frame rate or sprite flickering? Let's say, what would you prefer, a 20fps game with no flicker, or a game with some flicker (20Hz worst case) but that runs at a super smooth 60fps?

 

Neither is acceptable. The low frame-rate is due to the EXEC, the built-in "operating system" of the Intellivision. The EXEC was a very early game programming runtime, and was built with many compromises at a time when the programmer was still getting acquainted with the hardware.

 

There is no reason to run a game using the EXEC nowadays. In fact, most games after the first generation eschewed it for their own custom game framework. Therefore, there is absolutely no reason to make a game that runs at 20 Hz anymore.

 

As for flicker, it is a style thing. Mattel had the notion that flickering sprites was one of the things that made the Atari look primitive, which is sort of true. The problem would have been compounded if you tried to flicker sprites at the already slow frame-rate of the EXEC. Therefore, Mattel management forbid programmers from using any techniques that would lead to flicker. Because of this, games on the Intellivision grew to avoid it as a matter of style and tradition. Games are typically designed to take advantage of the available resources in many creative ways.

 

Flicker is one of those things that you should avoid on the Intellivision as much as you can, since it makes games look off and out of place.

 

However, the cardinal sin on an Intellivision game is the low input sampling resolution. The worse thing about those early games running at 20 Hz is that the hand-controller was also polled three times a second. Sluggish input handling is the most frustrating thing to find in a game.

 

-dZ.

Edited June 21, 2016 by DZ-Jay

[m-crew]

Sprite flickering? I'm afraid I know nothing about programming.

Frame rate? Can't code things either.

 

The meaning of life? That's an easy one... 42

420 ??

 

lol

[m-crew]

As for flicker, it is a style thing. Mattel had the notion that flickering sprites was one of the things that made the Atari look primitive, which is sort of true. The problem would have been compounded if you tried to flicker sprites at the already slow frame-rate of the EXEC. Therefore, Mattel management forbid programmers from using any techniques that would lead to flicker. Because of this, games on the Intellivision grew to avoid it as a matter of style and tradition. Games are typically designed to take advantage of the available resources in many creative ways.

 

Flicker is one of those things that you should avoid on the Intellivision as much as you can, since it makes games look off and out of place.

 

However, the cardinal sin on an Intellivision game is the low input sampling resolution. The worse thing about those early games running at 20 Hz is that the hand-controller was also polled three times a second. Sluggish input handling is the most frustrating thing to find in a game.

 

-dZ.

My thoughts as well.

[1980gamer]

Absolutely leave flickering to the 2600!

 

Of course, if you can use it to your advantage, go for it. That is, hide the problem as a solution.

Long range scanner in a space game. As the objects are just out of range.... they can flicker until they are "in range"

Or, say a blinking light, only you know it blinks, because when the light is off, you are displaying something else.

 

If you can hide it.... I am cool with it!

[Intymike]

Absolutely leave flickering to the 2600!

 

 

And the NES.

[mr_me]

...

I multiplex'd the bombs in Mad Bomber, which is a Kaboom clone making 8 bombs at a time. I find it distracting and the busy backdrop may make it hard to see the bombs. So I decided to remove one basket color and redraw it, and got rid of the multiplexing bombs and just have 5 at a time. I had to make sure it run at 60hz at all time so the collusion detect works perfectly.

...

In some cases you can simulate unlimited flickerfree moving objects using background tile animation. Worm Whomper is a good example and here is another good example. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FIj5lgdvulc

 

The rotary control is a key feature of Kaboom. I'd lke to see the intellivision disc used as a rotary control if possible.

[Carl Mueller Jr]

 

Neither is acceptable. The low frame-rate is due to the EXEC, the built-in "operating system" of the Intellivision. The EXEC was a very early game programming runtime, and was built with many compromises at a time when the programmer was still getting acquainted with the hardware.

 

There is no reason to run a game using the EXEC nowadays. In fact, most games after the first generation eschewed it for their own custom game framework. Therefore, there is absolutely no reason to make a game that runs at 20 Hz anymore.

 

As for flicker, it is a style thing. Mattel had the notion that flickering sprites was one of the things that made the Atari look primitive, which is sort of true. The problem would have been compounded if you tried to flicker sprites at the already slow frame-rate of the EXEC. Therefore, Mattel management forbid programmers from using any techniques that would lead to flicker. Because of this, games on the Intellivision grew to avoid it as a matter of style and tradition. Games are typically designed to take advantage of the available resources in many creative ways.

 

Flicker is one of those things that you should avoid on the Intellivision as much as you can, since it makes games look off and out of place.

 

However, the cardinal sin on an Intellivision game is the low input sampling resolution. The worse thing about those early games running at 20 Hz is that the hand-controller was also polled three times a second. Sluggish input handling is the most frustrating thing to find in a game.

 

-dZ.

This doesn't sound right. The hand controls are polled at 20 hertz (depending on which key you press at the title screen, the disc, keypad 1, keypad 2, or keypad 3). It does take two identical reads to accept and dispatch on new input. So the maximum number of changes you can read and respond to would be 10 times per second.

　

Also, third-party software often use the EXEC. Imagic games still use the built-in hand controller routine, and make EXEC math routine calls as well. I think Coleco games use the EXEC in their entirety; I don't know to what extent Activision games used it, though.

　

I also think flicker is okay, especially if the image the mob represents is something that would flicker anyway, such as fire. Of course, there are some problems with older flatscreen TVs that apparently update at only 30 hertz, which causes objects to "disappear".

　

Carl

[Black_Tiger]

I'd love to have a version of Pac-Man for Intellivision with white flickering eyes on solid ghosts.

[+thegoldenband]

Flicker is used really well in Tower of Doom to generate colors that would otherwise be impossible.

[Carl Mueller Jr]

I'd love to have a version of Pac-Man for Intellivision with white flickering eyes on solid ghosts.

How about software MOBs under the ghost's costumes? I had that going with Ms. Pac-Man for a while…

[Black_Tiger]

How about software MOBs under the ghost's costumes? I had that going with Ms. Pac-Man for a while

Why did it get sacrificed? Did the moving fruit tip the balance or something?

[HunterZero]

Sluggish controls and ropey collision detection are the deal breaker for me.

 

I don't mind a bit of sprite flicker, or even lower frame rates if the controls are well implemented.

 

One reason for the EXEC was to present a library of commonly used routines for game programmers to use, so they would not have to waste space on the cart ROM on common subroutines. When you are limited to only 4K for a game, that's significant. Nowadays homebrews are not constricted by the cost of space on the cartridge ROM.

 

- J

[DZ-Jay]

This doesn't sound right. The hand controls are polled at 20 hertz (depending on which key you press at the title screen, the disc, keypad 1, keypad 2, or keypad 3). It does take two identical reads to accept and dispatch on new input. So the maximum number of changes you can read and respond to would be 10 times per second.

　

Also, third-party software often use the EXEC. Imagic games still use the built-in hand controller routine, and make EXEC math routine calls as well. I think Coleco games use the EXEC in their entirety; I don't know to what extent Activision games used it, though.

　

I also think flicker is okay, especially if the image the mob represents is something that would flicker anyway, such as fire. Of course, there are some problems with older flatscreen TVs that apparently update at only 30 hertz, which causes objects to "disappear".

　

Carl

 

Yeah, it's 10 times a second, which is a very crappy resolution -- especially when it happens after a 20 Hz pipeline.