Atari 400/800 GUI

[jaek_3]

Is there really a GUI for the Atari 400/800? What sort of mouse does it use, ST serial? Discuss

[+Stephen]

Read this thread. http://atariage.com/forums/topic/154520-new-gui-for-the-atari-8-bit/

[jaek_3]

Read this thread. http://atariage.com/forums/topic/154520-new-gui-for-the-atari-8-bit/

Thanks. Do you know of any other GUI's for the 8-bit family?

[jaek_3]

By the way, does anyone know how to boot into GOS via an emulator?

[flashjazzcat]

The GOS you initially asked about uses an Atari ST or Amiga serial mouse. To run it, you can download the ROMs from my website (see my signature) and attach them as cartridge images in Altirra, etc. There are no other multitasking graphical operating systems for the Atari 8-bit that I am aware of, but there are several graphical shells which may be considered "completed" (unlike the WIP GOS) depending on your expectations. These include Diamond GOS, Boss-X, TRS Desktop, ATOS, and others. All require DOS and some have various other dependencies (Turbo BASIC XL, SpartaDOS X, etc). For multitasking - if a graphical interface is unimportant - you may find the Contiki project of interest.

 

One point worth mentioning is that the WIP GOS will not run on a stock 400/800. XL/XE is required, and this includes an Incognito-equipped 800.

Edited June 24, 2016 by flashjazzcat

[jaek_3]

The GOS you initially asked about uses an Atari ST or Amiga serial mouse. To run it, you can download the ROMs from my website (see my signature) and attach them as cartridge images in Altirra, etc. There are no other multitasking graphical operating systems for the Atari 8-bit that I am aware of, but there are several graphical shells which may be considered "completed" (unlike the WIP GOS) depending on your expectations. These include Diamond GOS, Boss-X, TRS Desktop, ATOS, and others. All require DOS and some have various other dependencies (Turbo BASIC XL, SpartaDOS X, etc). For multitasking - if a graphical interface is unimportant - you may find the Contiki project of interest.

 

One point worth mentioning is that the WIP GOS will not run on a stock 400/800. XL/XE is required, and this includes an Incognito-equipped 800.

Thanks. Would you know how to attach a mouse in Altirra? Also, is there any specific reason why the 400/800 are unsupported?

[+Stephen]

Thanks. Would you know how to attach a mouse in Altirra? Also, is there any specific reason why the 400/800 are unsupported?

400/800 are not supported due to memory constraints. The new GUI requires a minimum of 128k, RAM under OS, etc.

 

To attach a mouse to altirra (assuming you have the latest version which is 2.80 test 44). Go to Input, Port 1, then choose the ST mouse. Same for port 2 if that's where the mouse should be plugged.

[flashjazzcat]

Thanks. Would you know how to attach a mouse in Altirra?

Input->Port 2->Mouse -> ST Mouse (port 2). You may configure things via Input->Input Mappings...

 

Also, is there any specific reason why the 400/800 are unsupported?

The multitasking micro-kernel resides under the OS ROM (in the XL/XE shadow RAM at $C000-$CFFF and $D800-$FFFF). There is really nowhere else to put it (it must be in RAM, since the partly interrupt-driven code is self-modifying), and the 400/800 have no RAM in this region. It is also appropriate to place it there since the kernel completely replaces the Atari OS.

[Jeffrey Worley]

On 6/24/2016 at 4:50 PM, flashjazzcat said:

 

Input->Port 2->Mouse -> ST Mouse (port 2). You may configure things via Input->Input Mappings...

 

 

The multitasking micro-kernel resides under the OS ROM (in the XL/XE shadow RAM at $C000-$CFFF and $D800-$FFFF). There is really nowhere else to put it (it must be in RAM, since the partly interrupt-driven code is self-modifying), and the 400/800 have no RAM in this region. It is also appropriate to place it there since the kernel completely replaces the Atari OS.

Really, that last bit says it all. ?

 

I'm gearing up to try this GOS out, lack a mouse, and am purchasing a 'Jerry" ST/Amiga to USB mouse dongle I hope will work.  Why don't we use standard mice these days?  ST and Amiga mice made sense in the 80's and 90's, when those were relatively cheap and plentiful, but why is it hard to just run a serial mouse?  or run a serial mouse that has been mildly modified?  It has always perplexed me.

 

So right now, I have a joystick plugged in to port 2, and can make the cursor wiggle a little when I operate it, but obviously, it is is expecting that joystick to be an ST mouse and that's that?

 

Best,

 

Jeff

[flashjazzcat]

35 minutes ago, Jeffrey Worley said:

it is is expecting that joystick to be an ST mouse and that's that?

It is, yes. There's a version which works with Amiga mice as well, which I can provide if you need it. The joystick version sucks very badly at the moment.

37 minutes ago, Jeffrey Worley said:

Why don't we use standard mice these days?  ST and Amiga mice made sense in the 80's and 90's, when those were relatively cheap and plentiful, but why is it hard to just run a serial mouse?  or run a serial mouse that has been mildly modified?  It has always perplexed me.

Very few individuals have any pressing reason to use mice at all with the A8, but since an ST mouse works in the machine without any modification at all, it makes sense to me to make it the default input device. I have no idea if PeST or any other solution works.

[+Stephen]

I am very spoiled!  My 1088 XEL and XLD devices use the wonder TK-II device from @mytek.  I am using a Logitech optical PS/2 mouse and the tracking, speed, etc. are just perfect.  There was also a neat adapter which I think was an ABBUC hardware contest device some years back, called the CMI-08

 

[Jeffrey Worley]

14 minutes ago, flashjazzcat said:

It is, yes. There's a version which works with Amiga mice as well, which I can provide if you need it. The joystick version sucks very badly at the moment.

Very few individuals have any pressing reason to use mice at all with the A8, but since an ST mouse works in the machine without any modification at all, it makes sense to me to make it the default input device. I have no idea if PeST or any other solution works.

I suppose the corollary to my question would be, why, even if it is ugly and clunky, not have a basic driver rigged for a joystick, a pointing device every Atarian has, to tour the thing and set the hook for buying a mouse.  I'm getting the adapter on double-faith.

 

Is the Gui included with the Incognito rom and with the U1MB rom the supergui you've been working on?  Are you writing something like an operating system cum megaloader?  Will it load an .ATR or open an SDX command prompt in a window or launch .xex files or such like.  I'm looking forward to trying it out, and in any event is it cool, but I was thinking you might be angling for a kindof STEAM for the Atari 8-bit.  WOW.  That would be BIG and really cool.

 

Jeff

[flashjazzcat]

5 minutes ago, Jeffrey Worley said:

I suppose the corollary to my question would be, why, even if it is ugly and clunky, not have a basic driver rigged for a joystick, a pointing device every Atarian has, to tour the thing and set the hook for buying a mouse.

Because controlling a GUI with a joystick sucks and I wanted the default experience to be optimal, which means mouse input with software acceleration, etc. The thing isn't yet at the point where the user can install drivers for different input devices, so you get the one that works with an ST mouse. It's not a question of being unable to provide a joystick controlled version (I can fix up the pointer speed in the joystick driver if it's desperately needed).

9 minutes ago, Jeffrey Worley said:

Is the Gui included with the Incognito rom and with the U1MB rom the supergui you've been working on?  Are you writing something like an operating system cum megaloader?  Will it load an .ATR or open an SDX command prompt in a window or launch .xex files or such like.

It's a multitasking graphical operating system like Windows or macOS, but on an 8-bit Atari. It's not a loader/file manager front-end using a 'desktop' metaphor which runs non-GUI apps (we already have plenty of those: ATOS, BOSS-XE, etc). It is already a micro-kernel based OS capable of launching relocatable GUI apps from the internal ROMdisk. It will work with ATRs since it will treat them like any other mass storage volume. It will not open an SDX command prompt in a shell, since SDX will not be running alongside the GUI. The terminal will have to be written from scratch. It already launches applications, but said applications are relocatable GOS apps. To run non-GUI apps, the entire multitasking OS would have to make itself disappear first (since legacy apps are prone to using all available resources without restriction).

[Jeffrey Worley]

7 minutes ago, flashjazzcat said:

Because controlling a GUI with a joystick sucks and I wanted the default experience to be optimal, which means mouse input with software acceleration, etc. The thing isn't yet at the point where the user can install drivers for different input devices, so you get the one that works with an ST mouse. It's not a question of being unable to provide a joystick controlled version (I can fix up the pointer speed in the joystick driver if it's desperately needed).

It's a multitasking graphical operating system like Windows or macOS, but on an 8-bit Atari. It's not a loader/file manager front-end using a 'desktop' metaphor which runs non-GUI apps (we already have plenty of those: ATOS, BOSS-XE, etc). It is already a micro-kernel based OS capable of launching relocatable GUI apps from the internal ROMdisk. It will work with ATRs since it will treat them like any other mass storage volume. It will not open an SDX command prompt in a shell, since SDX will not be running alongside the GUI. The terminal will have to be written from scratch. It already launches applications, but said applications are relocatable GOS apps. To run non-GUI apps, the entire multitasking OS would have to make itself disappear first (since legacy apps are prone to using all available resources without restriction).

That wouldn't be a bad feature to have though, purity aside.  Have you heard of SnapShot?  This was a multi-tasker by Tom Hunt, I believe.  It took a snapshot of your system ram and round-robin it as you like from hard disk or from ramdisk.  It did a fair job of capturing cpu state, registers etc, and was entirely software.  So it would suspend to disk while the hoggy demo ran and then resume when a trigger is got.  So, as of the moment we basically need to write software to use on the gui os.  That's gonna slow things down a bit.  I'll get my mouse in a few days and if all goes well, will have a ton of 'constructive criticism' for FJC. 

 

Best,

?

Jeff

Edited November 16, 2019 by Jeffrey Worley

[flashjazzcat]

13 minutes ago, Jeffrey Worley said:

Have you heard of SnapShot?

Heard of it, seen it, discussed it. I am aware of and have researched all available GUIs for the A8, and many which run on other platforms. Have a read through this thread before posing questions if you'd be so kind, since I have no desire to reiterate everything already written in the long thread here or elsewhere. You might also read about SymbOS, since the APIs for my GOS are increasingly closely aligned to those of Jorn's rather astounding OS.

 

The matter of round-robin multitasking, context switching, etc, is already taken care of, and if provision is ever made for 'legacy' applications, I'll deal with that when the time comes.

[+mytek]

2 hours ago, Stephen said:

I am very spoiled!  My 1088 XEL and XLD devices use the wonder TK-II device from @mytek.  I am using a Logitech optical PS/2 mouse and the tracking, speed, etc. are just perfect.

Actually the TK-II is for the PS/2 keyboard translation to what the Pokey needs to see. The PS/2 mouse input is based on the MouseTARI firmware in a similar PIC chip, although the functionality is entirely different (translates PS/2 to ST quadrature via joystick input). I still consider the mouse firmware to be in a BETA state, and eventually I want to add the ability to adjust resolution and acceleration aspects. Presently it works best with 400 dpi mice.

 

I had also planned to do a version that would perhaps utilize a smaller chip and make a carrier board for plugging into a joystick port on a standard A8 machine, but just haven't gotten around to it.

 

[+Stephen]

1 hour ago, mytek said:

Actually the TK-II is for the PS/2 keyboard translation to what the Pokey needs to see. The PS/2 mouse input is based on the MouseTARI firmware in a similar PIC chip, although the functionality is entirely different (translates PS/2 to ST quadrature via joystick input). I still consider the mouse firmware to be in a BETA state, and eventually I want to add the ability to adjust resolution and acceleration aspects. Presently it works best with 400 dpi mice.

 

I had also planned to do a version that would perhaps utilize a smaller chip and make a carrier board for plugging into a joystick port on a standard A8 machine, but just haven't gotten around to it.

 

D'oh.  Gotta be more careful about the details!  So much hardware, so many mods, so little time.