576XE Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 Does Dear Anyone uses this monster? Really, It's a combined sort of DOSes - like DOS XL. I mean that the Base is - Command shortcuts but showed screen is - only help+state declaration. TOP-DOS it's very impressive and interactive! For example, you may type S 8X (set 8-th disk as expunged...) and you remove your ramdisk, (staing I/O channel intact for further using) Suprisingly is has very low LOMEM and can be "THe DOS for InterLISP65" (Which was my personal Nightmare until Drac030 gave me the key...) Anyway it's interesting Dynosaur! (Somebody is looking it's bones...) Is there a manual? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roydea6 Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 (edited) Does Dear Anyone uses this monster? Really, It's a combined sort of DOSes - like DOS XL. I mean that the Base is - Command shortcuts but showed screen is - only help+state declaration. TOP-DOS it's very impressive and interactive! Is there a manual? TOPDOS15.TAR I could only find Docs in an arc file and a TAR file. So I uploaded the tar file and should be compatible with SDX447 and the TAR file included in one of the Toolkits for the WebSite. Or Windows WinZip .. Edited July 9, 2016 by rdea6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
576XE Posted July 10, 2016 Author Share Posted July 10, 2016 Hello Roy. Thank you for TD manual. Now in attachment anyone can find your files in readable manner It's TOP-DOS Manual. EZ TOP.zip 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kogden Posted July 14, 2016 Share Posted July 14, 2016 'tar' is actually more native on most of my machines than 'zip'. Not all of us moved to the Wintel camp when Atari died. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
576XE Posted July 14, 2016 Author Share Posted July 14, 2016 I have tar machine too - it's working RS/6000 43P-7248 with AIX onboard. They say that it even can run OS/2 for PowerPC... But I have not Installation CD images... Anyway OS/2 Rules! In PCINTEL env. I use IsArc it reads all - from 7z to lha, arc, tar, iso... EZ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kogden Posted July 14, 2016 Share Posted July 14, 2016 My primary desktop environment is MacOS X these days (BSD UNIX/Mach hybrid) but I have a bunch of old UNIX boxes as well. Only the VAXserver 3100 running ULTRIX 4.4 (or NetBSD) and SPARC classic running SunOS 4 (or NetBSD) are really kept running very often. The VAXserver even has a genuine amber-screen VT220 for a console and my Atari 800XL w/ 850 can act as a second terminal. I also have Franz LISP, Scheme and an old version of CMU CLISP installed on the VAXserver under ULTRIX. I haven't played with InterLISP/65 much yet on the 8-bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
576XE Posted July 15, 2016 Author Share Posted July 15, 2016 I thought about LISP just you said about VAX and ULTRIX. I think that InterLISP/65 is just DEMO version. It knows too little about Atari. Particularly nothing about subdirs and any extended memory. It really means that the available memory is too low even if we want to write absolutely needed traditional LISP functions. There are too simple macros mechanizm and absolut lack of working with characters. It means that any work with characters contains in converting them to lists and after all work converting lists back to characters. Thus garbage collector with it's primitive algorithm permanently sees the lack of memory and it's indicator - asterrisk flashes permanently too... Bad luck! In other ways InterLISP/65 is very robust program. EZ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kogden Posted July 15, 2016 Share Posted July 15, 2016 I thought about LISP just you said about VAX and ULTRIX. I think that InterLISP/65 is just DEMO version. It knows too little about Atary. Particularly nothing about subdirs and any extended memory. It really means that the available memory is too low even if we want to write absolutely needed traditional LISP functions. A stock 800XL actually has much more RAM than early machines that ran LISP. Does TOP-DOS have subdir support? When Inter-LISP/65 was developed I don't think the PORTB-based RAM expansions existed. Or any DOS versions with subdir support. It would be wonderful if source were available for the interpreter. Adding support for storing code/data in multiple banks and updating GC to handle it would be great. Support for SDX and MyDOS subdirs would be nice as well. Maybe even swapping to HDD could be supported for larger programs. Perhaps the 'miniscm' Scheme (a dialect of LISP) interpreter could be stripped down and ported to the Atari? Oh, have you ever had a chance to play with one of the Soviet Electronika BK-0010 or BK-0011 home computers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
576XE Posted July 15, 2016 Author Share Posted July 15, 2016 Hi kodgen! I think that InterLISP/65 is just very ancient production. It can be used with 48k of memory. But LISP oriented devices have tons of processor registers and save in mem only calculated results. My opinion that all speculations about using subdirs in TOP-DOS is just an erroneous reading of manual and erroneous seeng of screen. In both sources there are the word 'directory', BUT it's meaning concerns just DIR listing! (Because the root directory is directory too! If they tried to name their mentions as Folders (and it's really impossible in the case of listing matter!) but they can not! Sorry, but soviet monsters was very costly in times. And as I remember I could use Color TV as a cheap replacement of Color Monitor and see Colors and hear sounds! Atari became my love for all my life. Really LISP is not so complicated as we may imagine. For example if we know work with CIO thus we know how to fill InterLISP/65-cell structure. (It showed in manual clearly). Evidently CORE-LISP (either in ML-codes or in lisp-cells manner too) must be in a cartridge, The rule of thumb is that LISP codes and LISP results are the same kind of records. When garbage collector begins it's work it goes from ROOT CORE-LISP definitions along bynary-tree structure for searching some definitions which are designed but not producted. Every function HAS it's result!!! (and every LISP-conformed function marked as in production) For example printing functions looks so strange in LISP because they all prints it's RESULT on screen. (PRINT 'INSTANCE) lead to INSTANCE - it's RESULT INSTANCE - it's PRINTOUT LISP Thus the second thing is byproduct of calling PRINT function. It only mean that LISP knows ALL it's workable functions and garbage collector can delete others. The simplest algorythm for garbage collection is to divide all available memory in 2 parts ... Low - with definitions (Some of them will be scipped) and High - empty. We copy all Low into High, skipping not-workable definitions and all datas. And when we copy-with-replace High into Low, we get the same but cleared environment for further work. The fact that there are THE LAST function in LISP means that We have THIS environment and it's beautiful behavior. Sorry, but I disappointed in Interlisp/65 because of it's disabilities. We really need new LISP! May be when GURUs bring us an fast and plain-memory F7. Here is my last ILISP image... To load ENV you must load atr... When it has worked you need say LISP (it will be loaded from RAMDISK) Say N for no preparing hirez graphics... This version of LISP has INIT function for loading our preferences of our environment/ All loaded! Just type (INIT) Then LISP loads preparations... and EDITOR Now you are in EDITor millea! For going back to LISP just type EX. ... EZ BlueLISP.atr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roydea6 Posted July 15, 2016 Share Posted July 15, 2016 Hi, Are you using Top-Dos 15a. I have a TopDos Pro atr that has a serial # in the title.. TOP2D.ATR Not sure is it has any more features or not. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
576XE Posted July 16, 2016 Author Share Posted July 16, 2016 Hi Rdea6! Now I experimenting with TOP-DOS 1.5 because it has very low LOMEM. Definetly it can launch file versions of InterLISP/65, ACTION!, LOGO, TurboBASIC etc. I know about pro version and in some case it's preferable (it can use DSDD disks in MYDOS manner, it can work with sectors and convert numbers) but it can't work with LISP. The F ang G functions concerns Lock /Unlock subdirectories ... BUT there are a lack of functions for making and deleting subdirs, for changing subdir and returning to above/root subdir. It's only disambiguation. It only means that we are unable to work with subdirs at all. I only want to say that these DOSes are very interesting and compartible from the box. EZ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kogden Posted July 16, 2016 Share Posted July 16, 2016 Sorry, but I disappointed in Interlisp/65 because of it's disabilities. We really need new LISP! May be when GURUs bring us an fast and plain-memory F7. Here is my last ILISP image... To load ENV you must load atr.. When it has worked you need say LISP (il loads from RAMDISK) Say N for no preparing hirez graphics... This version of LISP has INIT function for loading our preferences of our environment/ All loaded! For what it is, InterLISP/65 is interesting but a bit weak for anything substantial. That Antonia 4MB upgrade w/ 65816 is pretty interesting. The Rapidus/F7 is kind of overkill in my opinion. I'd rather try to get something going that supported a standard 6502 w/ bankswitching though before "cheating" with a 65816. I would be willing to try to write a new interpreter but my 6502 asm experience is very limited. The 6502 is very minimalist and tedious to code for in straight assembler. I might be able to get something going with cc65 cross-compiler and do it in C. That could be fun and I could use existing interpreters for inspiration. cc65 has gotten a lot more efficient in recent years and as I get better with asm I could optimize parts by replacing it with inline asm as time went on. Thanks for that image, I'll have to check it out. So MEMLO is too high to use TopDOS Pro? What does InterLISP expect MEMLO to be? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
576XE Posted July 17, 2016 Author Share Posted July 17, 2016 HI, kogden! (Now I wrote it in right manner) It's NOT only LOMEM problem. DOSes while loaded ignore report about availability of cartridge RAM. They report about cartridge existence only! The Drac030's trick poke $02e4 $c0 (saying OS that RAM is available) makes deal done. I think that it can help in many many cases! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtariGeezer Posted July 17, 2016 Share Posted July 17, 2016 Hi, Are you using Top-Dos 15a. I have a TopDos Pro atr that has a serial # in the title.. TOP2D.ATR Not sure is it has any more features or not. Ahhh, a new Double Density variation of DOS 2 FMS. Time to update ATR Tools Thanks for posting this Roy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
576XE Posted July 17, 2016 Author Share Posted July 17, 2016 It's High Time. AtariGeezer! I can not imagine that ATARIANS have not the list of all available DOSes with it's advantages and disadvantages... I worked mostly with Sparta and MyDOS in times because of "LDW Super2000" and then "D.8002.HS". But now I heared something about many cartridge DOSes! 2.5 versions, MyDOS versions, X versions and many others including MD DOS 128kB SRAM. It's Dyno too! One of the most interesting features of DOSXL, TOP-DOS is the way of commands control by entering letters-sequences instead of entering full command processor commands. (And they can be butched!) For example you may enter L D:LISP (in ONE prompt string) instead of L then D:LISP. It's a kind of mixture of DOS 2.5 and Sparta behaviours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
576XE Posted July 23, 2016 Author Share Posted July 23, 2016 "128 files per directory works with TopDOS and BiboDOS" said XXL... Which version? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1050 Posted July 24, 2016 Share Posted July 24, 2016 Only on DD disks, but any version is my guess. I thought I answered this once before? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1050 Posted July 24, 2016 Share Posted July 24, 2016 By the above I meant to say that I thought I had posted my short reply already once before, but I was mistaken in that regard. Didn't mean to sound like that at all. At least on TOP DOS they will use the full 256 byte sector to store eight more files in each of the eight directory sectors so the available file count for DD disks only is doubled from 64 to 128. Other DD capable DOS like MyDOS uses 'short' directory sectors on DD disks and can not play this game ever. I only assume BiboDOS is doing the same as TOP DOS where the feature is only possible when using DD disks in the first place. I do not know BiboDOS at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
576XE Posted July 24, 2016 Author Share Posted July 24, 2016 Me too 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
576XE Posted August 24, 2016 Author Share Posted August 24, 2016 CAS presented BIBO Assembler manual But there is a lack of BIBO DOS manual (but Deutche version.) I just obtained XF551 and experiments ... experiments ... I found resently some strange DD DOS version 2 What is it? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+CharlieChaplin Posted August 24, 2016 Share Posted August 24, 2016 Can you upload an ATR of DD DOS here ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
576XE Posted August 25, 2016 Author Share Posted August 25, 2016 Simply YES! It's here (But I'm unaware that it can work with DS/DD disks) Please, Andreas, can you advise me some XF related useful progs? Double Density Dos V2.atr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
576XE Posted August 26, 2016 Author Share Posted August 26, 2016 Good news. Yesterday I've formatted and initialized successfully QD 360k disk (ie DS/DD) with Top-DOS Pro and XF551. Then I'll try to use HiSpeed SIO patch for fast I/O... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+CharlieChaplin Posted August 26, 2016 Share Posted August 26, 2016 Hello 576XE, I have several tools and tooldisks for the XF551, but most tools and utilities for the XF551 are written in such a way, that they will only work with the standard XF551 and no other drive... (nor any XF551 upgrade like Speedy-XF or Hyper-XF)... XFConfig.ATR: a config. program for the XF551, never used it... XFTools1.ATR: Turbo-DOS XL/XE (Reitershan) version 2.1XF with built-in XF-highspeed; includes all Turbo-DOS utilities and a few other utilities (the XFhigh.COM can be used with e.g. DOS 2.0, DOS 2.5, MyDOS 4.5x or other DOS versions without highspeed; it must not be used with this Turbo-DOS version, since it already has a high-speed driver built-in; note that this XFhigh.COM driver by Bob Woolley / Bob1200XL here, uses RAM under the OS). Press the Help key to get an overview of all available Turbo-DOS commands. XFtools2.ATR: Turbo-DOS XL/XE (only DOS+DUP) and lots of PD/Freeware XF551 tools, e.g. some fixes for disk-based Sparta-DOS 3.2x to make it work correctly with an XF551 drive XFtools3.ATR: Bibo-DOS 6.4XF with all utilities; note that since Compyshop also sold the Speedy upgrade, most Bibo-DOS utilities were made for (or only support) the Speedy 1050 upgrade, e.g. Scopy15.COM and Copy2000.COM sector-copy-programs only work with Speedy ultraspeed, they work only with standard/normal speed on an XF551 and will not detect any density change (not sure if they work correct with the XF 360k format; but maybe I even copied older versions onto this disk, which are limited to 180k anyways)... XFtools4.ATR: various sector copy programs that either support XF-highspeed (most copy programs) or besides DS/DD 40 tracks even DS/DD with 80 tracks (Copy720k.COM, also known as Copymate 3.7 XE or so; alas, any speeder seems to have been removed here, so it only works with normal speed - unless you have a highspeed OS in your computer). As far as I remember, the copy-programs with XF-highspeed do detect a density change... XFtools5.ATR: pseudo-bootdisk with several XF utility programs, put together by the Top-Crew XFtools6.atr: bootdisk with several XF utility programs While in western europe there were lots of 1050 drives sold, lots of XF551 drives got sold to eastern europe and thus there are many programs from east-germany (former GDR) available for the XF551 drive... XF_Tools.zip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
576XE Posted August 26, 2016 Author Share Posted August 26, 2016 Many thanks, Andreas! Yoy know of course that XF551 is slightly buggi and too sophysticated when yoy are changing your way from 'normal but highspeeded drives'... I had deals with LDW Super 2000, D.8002 HS, never with 810 and 1050 (They are not in 130XE color scheme...). Their way was simply reading and applaying manuals. XF 551 is something another beast when we want to use DS/DD. But It's the only it's advantage! SORRY! It's very Hush too! I plan to buy from Dropcheck new XF551 board... for XF551 (I even think that she planned this board for ST external drives (It's only the oldest my dream...)) I'm waiting more info about her further plans. Anyway XF551 is robust and absolutely working drive in Atari manner. (LISP: Never forgot that my English is sadly a kind of joke.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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