576XE Posted August 31, 2016 Author Share Posted August 31, 2016 Hello, friends.I've investigated TopDOS 1.5 Pro (Thank you Roy!) and found that it's not so plain as others...It's REALLY Atari mannered DOS! I mean that there are no immediate way in access almost any function... Only deferred.(Slik thingy.)Here is zero loading screenshot.https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B3ul-RAQNdqjcGdVUHByeXhIVTAAre they crazy? I'm not a Cosmonaut and not an Nuclear Powerstation Operator!NO!Topmost part of screen is STATUS of system parts.Bottommost is Help facility. (TOP-DOS is very helpful!)Just press command letter and ?-mark after.And you can see the screenful of HELP data.(You can see ?-mark and Help-word in Bottom-Left box. That's it.)Thus we can say that we see here only system Status and Commands available...And the LAST string is just prompt.Let's try /Reset/ (or F5 in emulators) and we now see this screen:https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B3ul-RAQNdqjUzgwSlJzVTNhbmcYou now can imagine that TopDOS is ready for batch operations,because No Status, No Help never give us the ability to control the system.Now...Did you see this bad manner Heart-(Atari LOVES You!) sign as a prompt?I personally love $ or even # signs but it's no mean in Atari thuslet's change it to >-sign.In TopDOS Manner:S P> (Set Prompt as >)Then let's set left margine to 1S L1Saving is only rewriting DUP.SYS as in Atari DOS 2.0.H 1Looks slightly better ...https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B3ul-RAQNdqjaWc2Zk5IZFhUcWMTopDOS is one of rear DOSes feeling XF551 Atari drive!I'll try to show you available parts furthure.EZ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle22 Posted September 1, 2016 Share Posted September 1, 2016 576, your English keeps getting better. Good work Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
576XE Posted September 5, 2016 Author Share Posted September 5, 2016 Hi, Kyle22 Thank you for your warm words.I even could't imagine that someone can read this mixture of Atari+Vodka...Now,let's create DS/DD disk. (The Top-DOS and XF551 is really twins as Lenin and Party!) I often use MakeATR utility...We need custom image of 1440 sectors of 256 bytes.https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B3ul-RAQNdqjRHVGRlVISE5WYUkIt's still not DSDD, but size is absolutely strict.I choose MyDOS file system. (Just a whim.)Save it as DSDD.atr, PLEASE!Load our Top-DOS image and attach disk D2:DSDD.atrThen press 2 <Return>Now you can see this:https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B3ul-RAQNdqjbU5MUmpLbmdHZkkBottom right message shows us that MyDOS formatting disk as dd but not qd.Let's format it with Top-DOS QD manner.Now we are creating FLAG for XF551!1>I 2QAnd see this.https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B3ul-RAQNdqjcDZ0eGFBZTE4ZVUIt only Stay Flag as Double Sided!!!Now we'll apply DD to disk.1>I 2Really - not a clear way to achive our purpose.But DS/DD is created!https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B3ul-RAQNdqjM0U1cFlnc2FYNWMAndNote: Don't be confused with 128 number. It means only the number of available files in directory...The real size of sector is 256 bytes!I must say that a real Top-DOS magic is available only for DS/DD disks!!!We need to1>H 2It's our newly created disk for playing with HIM!EZ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+CharlieChaplin Posted September 5, 2016 Share Posted September 5, 2016 Yep, different DOS 2.x versions also mean different standards. While 90k and 180k are more or less the same with most DOS 2.x versions (+- 1 sector maybe), there are big differences at 130k and 360k. For 130k DOS 2.5 is one standard in the DOS 2.x world, while MyDOS is another one - but alas, there are dozens of DOS versions that have their own standard for 130k (this also includes Top-DOS which does not follow DOS 2.5 nor MyDOS standard here). For 360k we also have various standards, e.g. a) MyDOS 4.5x with max. 64 files (no sector/file-links), b) BiboDOs 6.x, Top-DOS 1.5, SuperDOS 5.x, etc. with max. 128 files (no sector/file-links), c) Turbo-DOS XL/XE 2.x with max. 128 files (and 4 bytes per sector as sector/file-links, since the usual 3 bytes are not enough for 1440 sectors) and d) some other standards. So if you want to be on the safe (and most compatible) side, only use 90k and 180k for DOS 2.x versions. I recently bought a big A8 collection with several hundred diskettes on ebay and an XF551 drive. Approx. 1/4 of the disks use 360k with different DOS versions (Bibo, Turbo, My - DOS). My goal is to copy them back to 180k or even smaller disk sizes, so I can use them with my Speedy 1050 drive. This will take quite some time, because of the different DOS 2.x standards for 360k... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1050 Posted September 5, 2016 Share Posted September 5, 2016 Hi 576XE, Atari+Vodka... Kind of not a complete test of the Top-DOS there. You should then reboot and try to mount the atr brand new to see if it has lost it's double sidedness. MyDOS can not do this much even though it too was set for DSDD and shows that for as long as power lasts on the Atari. Or you move the disk from the drive. In which case you must O Configure the drive yet again manually = not much fun. I suspect that double sidedness is not a part of the atr header? If so then it will take an especially intelligent DOS to report the second side. MyDOS should be able to do this but this area of code is in the troublesome format bug area and needs much work for that issue too. This is the above file mounted as drive 5 in Atari800Win. !!1440.zip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoodByteXL Posted September 6, 2016 Share Posted September 6, 2016 If so then it will take an especially intelligent DOS to report the second side. MyDOS should be able to do this but this area of code is in the troublesome format bug area and needs much work for that issue too. MyDOS indeed does it, cannot say for Top DOS as I haven't used it for more than two decades. And (at least my) atr files do not loose the information about DSDD. Test-ATR attached with MyDOS 4.50 1M. I remember having had 2 XF551 back then which had problems when used with MyDOS in DSDD. An update of their buggy ROM fixed that. TEST_QD.ATR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
576XE Posted September 6, 2016 Author Share Posted September 6, 2016 Hello again, Friends!You may be absolutely aware that I always appreciate your invaluable advices. My problem is that now I need to use PAL Atari Machine with NTSC XF551. Oh God!And I even can not find info about someone who can now flash and sell me the PAL chip.(I even don't know is XF551 mobo socketed or not... I just afraid to open device...)Skip it...About DS/DD...It's only a CITE... - (this difference is the elimination of the file numbers from the sector links.)- It just means that Top-DOS format of DS/DD is uncompartible with any other Atari format!If MyDOS reads Top-DOS disks succesfully it means that the organization of DS/DD disks is Atari-like. (Heil Top-DOS, Heil Top-DOS!)When we are trying to write to Top-DOS disk a file in MyDOS environment we uncontested wrighting file number into the abyss!It's IMHO of course! But...Now I'm saying about pro version. And about of Top-DOS.At first it's tiny. (Not so tiny as 1.5!)At second - modular.This fact is much more interesting!I'am in Deja Vu that it's a borning Unix millea and aroma. More strictly OS/2 !!! Because for the Atari We all are - THE ONE!Just an example...Oh God...We need, at first, to create Test Environment!!!It means that we need to copy ALL files (but system) to our DS/DD disk D2:.Let's create Ramdisk as D8:It's time to show!Press S button and...https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B3ul-RAQNdqjbWd4ai1vUFA5YXcYour can see here an instruction for Cosmonauts.Do you like 'Quest in ROOT' record F.E.?Please remember that you have pressed 'S' earlier!!! (Thus going to setting screen.)And our setting: - please, type - "8R"!From the Start-screen you must type1>S 8R (Set 8 as Ramdisk.)Now we can imagine that disk is NOT initialized and when we load system it needs driver then1>L ISRAMDSK (LOAD ISRAMDISK.)All Done!But it is NOT ALL WHAT I MEAN when said about Unix , Atari etc.Let's press 1 <Return>.We can see this...https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B3ul-RAQNdqjNmhJU1NwV1FrNHMThe trick here is to copy all files to D8: and after deleting DUP.SYS from Ramdisk, copy all files again from Ramdisk to D2:DSDD.atrI don't even try to discuss the problem. Please, beleive me...Well, I explain...The qd requisites is concern only D2:DUP.SYS (We have formatted it in right manner.)But DUP is write itself from D1:DUP.SYS which is still DD but not QD !!!!!!!!!!! After all, when we have copied all to D2: then we must reload system from D1:DSDD.atr!Let's load it... for furter experiments...I'm going to sleep, EZ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillC Posted September 7, 2016 Share Posted September 7, 2016 @576XE There aren't different versions of the XF551 for PAL/NTSC, but the early XF551 firmware didn't work properly with PAL computers. http://atariage.com/forums/topic/255027-xf551-bugs/?do=findComment&comment=3555839 The solution is the replace the firmware ROM with an EPROM containing updated firmware, I believe the ROM is the only socketed chip in an XF551. I would recommend getting the HyperXF firmware, it adds extra features(according to the designer it was developed on PAL systems but also works with NTSC). There are 2 versions, one for 5.25" and another for 3.5" mechanisms, both are available in the following linked post: http://atariage.com/forums/topic/96748-xf551-hyper-fx-mod/?do=findComment&comment=2392000 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1050 Posted September 7, 2016 Share Posted September 7, 2016 @GoodByteXL, Much like 576XL done it, booting your quad image as D1: is not a proper and full test of second side detection. Before I'll call it good and using only drive 3 thru 8 it has to show as two sided after the door is closed, a directory pull is attempted on it and RETURN is pressed in MyDOS done to refresh the drive display on the second line. Booting the disk allows for other memory locations to be used for the second side information which is where the 'cheating' issue comes into play. MyDOS is also set to favor D2: status calls out of the box so this drive slot could be called cheating too. Otherwise it's broken and MyDOS remains broken in this regard. At least according to my rigid rules. An 'update' to XF551 makes it NOT an XF551 anymore, you should be calling it a HyperXF at that point and quit refering to it as an XF-551 due to the confusion that can cause the casual reader. We got new guys roaming thru these posts, you could be piling them up in the ditch with lazy typing and lazy talk like that. Technically then you haven't even had an XF-551 for decades now. I do concur with the issues of the stock XF-551, it can not boot a quad MyDOS disk such as you posted COLD. The HyperXF can. But even here the real test is to fill up the first side with data and then write out H DOS files such that DOS.SYS and DUP.SYS are only found on the second side and then boot that disk with COLD system. I didn't notice if your disk qualifies as a real boot test in this regard or not. So I've done that and no it does not. Further, appearances can be deceiving - it looks like MyDOS but is instead the modified version offered by Newell with his 1-4 meg upgrade and it's well broken. It does not clear the drive tables during format or H writing of DOS files so what happens is the display is corrupt to start with showing erroneous information and one can not correct it for what exists in the real world to save your soul. This version is therefore trash bin material if you ask me. The good parts we can apply to good versions, the goofy parts like this part should be given a wide berth and stayed well away from. Newell did not do proper bug testing when he released this version just as too many in here have not and are not doing the same for themselves. Here is your version with a hex edited clearing of the drive tables, now tell me MyDOS works in this regard. Had you tested at the level I MUST, you would already be using another version. T_QD2.zip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
576XE Posted September 8, 2016 Author Share Posted September 8, 2016 Hello Friends! Hello BillC! I wrote absolutely the same thing you mean - 60Hz XF551 can not work with 50Hz Atari! HyperXF is not my case. Sorry. I haven't even one 700k or 1.44k diskette to get some ancient honey from it. Another reason - (as Andreas said) is in fact that almost all XF551 utilities oriented on 5.25" XF551 floppies. The main problem is that only Kyle22 and 1050 can read my texts... Now I'll try to direct a light to DIR screenshot in brief. It's only my suggestions! 130XE - Configuring RAM as 130XE compartibleDOS25 - adding ability to... I/O DOS 2.5 operations (no comments)ATR232 - adding ability to... may be Atari SIO mode or Atr8000 modeAXLON - Configuring MEMORY as AXLON compartibleHAPPY - Configuring scew as HAPPY mode (Andreas knows what it means), thus fast disk operationsIZRAMDISK - Checks memory and prepares RAMDISK automaticallyMOSAIC - Configuring MEMORY as MOSAIC compartibleNEWELL - Configuring MEMORY as NEWELL compartibleRS232 - adding ability to... may be another one SIO modeSPLIT - SPLITS SOMETHING into PARTS (No Comments)SUBDIR - Just Magic word (No Comments)VTOC - Formatting by cleaning VTOC dataWISE - adding ability to... recognize all disk formatsWISER - adding magic ability to... (No Comments)XL - Magic wordXFHIGH.COM - Configuring scew as XF551 mode (Andreas knows what it means), thus fast disk operationsULTRASPD.COM - Configuring scew as XF551 mode (Andreas knows what it means), thus fast disk operations Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
576XE Posted September 8, 2016 Author Share Posted September 8, 2016 I read something about 17-th sector incompartibility between IBM's and Atari's standards. Is it taken into account in HyperXF modes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
576XE Posted September 8, 2016 Author Share Posted September 8, 2016 Anyway, last question... Is Tom's Navigator can be NC like File Manager for Top-DOS? If you can remember Top-DOS directory does not contain file numbers data. If it is - then Top-DOS is a very sweet honey for XF551 users! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1050 Posted September 8, 2016 Share Posted September 8, 2016 Hi 576XE, If the question asked in another manner is can Top-DOS use alphabetized directories, I'm thinking it sure can. I never played with Norton Commander or Tom's Navigator but discarding the need for file number slots in the directory order matched to and encoded into the three sector end bytes means exactly that no order or any order you want can be used in the directory listing order at that point. MyDOS type "3" disks can also play this game. 5.25 HyperXF would have Atari standards to maintain disk use between standard XF-551 disks. On 5.25 version the second side is ordered differently from IBM IIRC. This issue is not a problem on 3.5 version since Atari never offered such a drive, so HyperXF only has the IBM method to follow. I am only assuming here and that is dangerous to do. I have no knowledge of 17th sector issue, your post is first mention of it I can recall. Skew is how that word is spelled in english, it is the order of sectors laid down on a disk track for faster reading/writing (hopefully). There are quite few different skews used, Puff has his own in the US+ OS, OSS (the first) has theirs of course, and I believe Dorndoff uses yet another for the HyperXF - I would trust Dorndoff on his own code as to top speed for the HyperXF. I seem to recall that Hias and Dorndoff worked together to get Hias's Hi-Speed patch working extremely fast with the Hyper. My opinion only here but I believe the Hi-Speed patch OS would be the fastest and overall easiest way to go to get the fastest possible speeds with floppies. But I've never actually checked the results of custom or any of the skew offerings anyway. I have a hard drive and other projects more pressing for me to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
576XE Posted September 9, 2016 Author Share Posted September 9, 2016 Hello! Here is just another web jokes: It's a CITE We have released the TOPDOS PROFESSIONAL, which has a number of newfeatures, including sector operations, file compare, double-sizedirectories, subdirectories, disks to 65535 sectors, multiple commandsper line, disk drive speed, logical/physical drive# mapping, hexadd/subtract, directory alphabetization by extension name, listing firstsector numbers of files, changing text in memory, multiple diskduplication, and MEMTOP relocation. It is priced at $100 and availableonly to TOPDOS customers who really appreciate TOPDOS and who are in aposition to protect it from pirates. If you are interested, send a SASE(Self-Addressed, Stamped Envelope) for information. I can't beleive it! No confirmation at all ! But... Here is a screenshot of loaded Top-DOS with A (directory) issued. (And thus - showing help for available options...) https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B3ul-RAQNdqjUVRkNHM1ZnRCdm8 Let's load Magic SUBDIR handler... by L SUBDIR And this is Top-DOS A selection with SUBDIR loaded. https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B3ul-RAQNdqjRHZjdGlLNzhueFU Do you can read these hieroglyphs? Really ENIGMA! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
576XE Posted September 9, 2016 Author Share Posted September 9, 2016 By the way Does anyone thinked about CART/ECI<->SSD Interface (Atari+Vodka) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
576XE Posted September 9, 2016 Author Share Posted September 9, 2016 And here is Tom's Navigator loaded with Top-DOS Even don't try write anything fron it's environment (I think) https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B3ul-RAQNdqjc1VUeFA1WVRhbE0 Loaded perfectly, by the way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
576XE Posted September 12, 2016 Author Share Posted September 12, 2016 Hi, there! Does anyone remember some OS loading Toms Navigator beside MyDOS! I was plagued by vague doubts that MyDOS and Top-DOS commands had a good long contacts... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
576XE Posted September 28, 2017 Author Share Posted September 28, 2017 Hi there, Friends! I have only one question. Does anyone have TOP DOS Pro Manual to clarify the question with SubDirs and 16 Meg disks? zen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
576XE Posted April 5, 2022 Author Share Posted April 5, 2022 Hello, Friends! ... Five years later ... While digging my old paper manuscripts from 'The modems USSR Internet Era' I've found some hardly available Artifacts and Scrolls concerning TopDOS !!!!!!!!! I must explain something. At first - all of them was obtained as an internet mail from good old friend from AtariAge dosens years ago and badly gone with my old provider death (near 1995-2000). So pity! But what an interesting reading! For example I've found that TopDOS Pro's directory can hold 256! files/sector in DD-like(based on DD format) subdirectory !!! Please look at the pictures provided: Moreover I've recorded 2 videos on YouTube about Zero installing TopDOS Pro (In Russian of course. You may don't know Russian but MUST know Atari-8/Altirra/may be IDE+2.0! Thus it's NOT a problem.) You may find it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dIHlgSTrDc&t=6870s and here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvqN2j3N63s&t=248s And as a Sweetest Cherry on the cake - Old image of TopDOS Pro (May be even Master Disk!) zen TopDOS Pro 2D (Master).ATR 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Larry Posted April 6, 2022 Share Posted April 6, 2022 Hi Zen! I've really tried to like Top Dos, having purchased several versions including the Pro. I think I paid about $50 for it, late in the product's life. (He started out at $100, IIRC). It clearly has a lot of features, but in the end I keep coming back to MyDos, because of its simplicity, but still supports a HDD. But since you point these features out, I think I'll get Pro out again and give it another whirl! -Larry 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted April 6, 2022 Share Posted April 6, 2022 That UI is definitely 'of its time' (cram as much information as possible into the available space). 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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