Atari Jaguar, the gift that keeps giving.

[nicolaspersijn]

Or wait until someone else gets on the bandwagon and starts selling them for $80 plus s&h.

Or how about $30 free shipping? Stay tuned, about to blow this scene wide open.

[neo_rg]

So you're gonna give a $170 refund to the person who bought that cart?

[phoenixdownita]

Or how about $30 free shipping? Stay tuned, about to blow this scene wide open.

Can't say I hate the price, but only for as long as you don't piss off the actual developers.

[nicolaspersijn]

So you're gonna give a $170 refund to the person who bought that cart?

Heh, I've worked out a pleasing solution to our very generous anonymous benefactor. Thank you, neo_rg for doing the important and creative work that will make bringing once elusive titles to the hands of average joe jagfan. Joe Jagfan doesn't come here for cool Jag stuff, he goes to eBay. Hopefully playing this stuff will spark some creativity in himself and lead him here for the knowledge and support to create his own games!

 

Really looking forward to seeing a big paradigm shift in the Jag scene. It's right around the corner. Ever wonder why Jaguar system and games prices are going up? New buyers. Supply and demand gentlemen.

 

Have you seen this recent listing? The description gives a good synopsis of my motives.

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/272365511016

[phoenixdownita]

....

Have you seen this recent listing? The description gives a good synopsis of my motives.

...

 

Like Robin Hood? For the Jag?

Let's see how it all pans out.

[skip]

I don't disagree with what you're saying in that auction. It sounds all altruistic and genuine. *However*, given it was Neo who did the conversion of Doom II levels to the Jag, never mind the id legalese says that individuals can't sell their game, that's where making $200 (or $170) on a proto cart based on other people's work and intellectual property leaves the creators with a bad taste in their mouth.

 

Did you speak to Neo beforehand? Offer it for sale at 'cost' to the fans here (I suspect anyone paying $200 for a proto is likely a speculator/reseller)? Speak to id? Same with Native - did you speak to Duranik? What did they think? Bby the way, as others have said, you can't die on the demo...

Would I personally pay $30 for a 15 level functional Doom II? Probably, I can't get it to work on an emulator and I won't have the time to try it on my Skunkboard. But, and here's the rub, shouldn't the person who did the conversion have some say in it?

Was your Tiny Toons proto a BIN auction? Why offer a BIN rather than the open auctions that Doom II was? Again, I'd possibly pay $30 for that (I only have the one level walk along the street level)...but who even 'owns' that version anyway? Never mind the rights holders. Why not offer it to the dedicated fans / Jag owners rather than open slather on eBay where it's likely to get flipped anyway?

Edited September 5, 2016 by skip

[+CyranoJ]

Can't say I hate the price, but only for as long as you don't piss off the actual developers.

I think that ship has sailed and vanished over the horizon.

[+CyranoJ]

Really looking forward to seeing a big paradigm shift in the Jag scene. It's right around the corner. Ever wonder why Jaguar system and games prices are going up? New buyers. Supply and demand gentlemen.

Well thanks to things like this I'll be restricting the supply of my binaries and people can demand all they want.

[+Sauron]

Really looking forward to seeing a big paradigm shift in the Jag scene.

 

You mean a paradigm shift that involves dipshits like you profiting from other people's work? Nothing new to the Jag scene, honestly. You're just another profiteer looking to spoil the fun for everyone else.

[Clint Thompson]

I enjoy my copy, for PERSONAL USE ONLY And made for $30 in parts and labor... It really is just as bad the idiots that spend that kind of money. That's why i'll never own an "original" Gorf

That label is badass! =D

Edited September 6, 2016 by Clint Thompson

[nicolaspersijn]

My intent is to offer strange titles, unknown to the new Jag fan as an invitation to the scene just under the surface. Exposing these titles to the new fans at cost is a great way to show them how deep the rabbit whole really is. There is a rich and interesting history here that can be enjoyed. Setting up artificial barriers to entry only keep the scene from growing.

 

Content creators get free distribution of their work & no one profits from it, hopefully to spur them on to larger projects with formal releases. It only serves to widen mindshare of the unique Jaguar community.

 

I've never made any money on my rotaries. All money made goes right back into the project. New fans are coming, there's no doubt in that. Do we want them playing Rayman and Iron soldier forever or do we want to get them here to learn more?

[skip]

Nick, I like your rotaries and your enthusiasm seems genuine (I personally think Sauron was a bit harsh in his assessment of your character rather than your actions). But your logic is, in my opinion, flawed in a number of areas.

- You need to *ask* and collaborate with creators if you can sell their work. Never mind the likes of iD who own the specific IP in question.
- There was no mention of AA on the eBay auctions, nor a link to any site educating people about the Jaguar. Not that I saw anyway.

- I don't think you've made it clear that your intention is to set a low buy it now price (what was it for Tiny Toons, $30?)...people are just going to going to look at the $200 selling price for the DOOM II demo and think this is backtracking. Whether you came up with the clever idea of selling at cost to broaden the market recently or not, I don't think you've clearly explained your 'business model'. After the fact may be a bit too late for some people.
- eBay is for speculators, flippers etc, not new enthusiasts who want to spend loads of cash on an incomplete beta. Why not buy up a heap of cheap IS boxed carts, sell them on eBay, and direct them to your site, other sites you could work with, or even here if you decided to work with AA (though that bridge may be burnt by now) to provide rarities? At the least it will avoid eBay fees, at best it will provide them with the 'education' about the platform that you've indicate you desire.
- Perhaps there's a bigger reason (e.g. IP rights, unfinished status, the original coder wasn't happy with the work or had moved on etc.) why some of these didn't ever go for sale in the first place (see point #1).

Edited September 6, 2016 by skip

[nicolaspersijn]

I did mention AA in my first $30 BIN listing, as well as my plan, intentions and motivations. This will be in every BIN listing. If you ask around in the right circles, (if anyone decides to chime in here, feel free) you'll find that I've been using this $30/25 free shipping model for a couple months already. Unfortunately I needed a larger sum to get things going, and a couple of old fashioned eBay L@@K RARE!!! auctions were necessary. I'm sorry. The buyer understands my plan and backs me 100%. What I'm doing will keep other eBay sharks from putting up a Tiny Toons etc. for $100

Edited September 6, 2016 by nicolaspersijn

[skip]

Ahh, okay, cool. I missed the AA mention.

Still, as mentioned here and elsewhere several times, if it's not declared as abandonware or the creator no longer cares, this fundamental courtesy applies (I reckon I've asked or mentioned this numerous times, and I don't even have a stake in any of it, I'm personally keen on getting as much cool Jag stuff as there is in the long run) : You need to *ask* and collaborate with creators, and other rights holders if applicable, if you can sell their work. Do you agree or disagree?

I still don't think eBay is the best place to sell stuff like this, especially given the eBay and PayPal charges, but it's your prerogative to do so.

Edited September 6, 2016 by skip

[nicolaspersijn]

I disagree, I'm not selling their work, I'm distributing it at cost, in a format that is consumable by 100% of all Jaguar fans.

[skip]

I think you'll find some resistance to that train of thought, and it has nothing to do with the Jaguar. You'd find resistance to it on any platform.

What if the coder specifically requests no redistribution upon release of a binary (i.e. they may want to release it themselves later)? (or in the case of Doom and its derivatives, it's in iD's license agreement?)

Worst case scenario as I see it is that binaries may no longer be released by Jaguar coders. This has been mentioned it in this thread already. By trying to be Peter Pan, the bank vault might get slammed shut before the loot can be taken and distributed (yeah, it's a poor metaphor).

Wouldn't it be better to work with the coding community to facilitate this happening?


I'm done now, I wish you well and hope that somehow positive things can come out of this.

[phoenixdownita]

I disagree, I'm not selling their work, I'm distributing it at cost, in a format that is consumable by 100% of all Jaguar fans.

By recognizing that it is "their work" you also recognize you DON'T HAVE DISTRIBUTION RIGHTS to it (at cost or otherwise) unless they explicitly granted it to you.

It doesn't matter if you make NO money, they have the right to control what happens to their work unless it is recognized as abandonware, shareware or public domain in which case they implicitly allow redistribution (meeting some criteria as it may be), abandonware being a can of worm already.

Oblivion is one such destiny that they can chose btw unless some higher entity (not you) declares their work some kind of heritage and forces preservation (nor redistribution mind you).

 

By your train of thoughts you should help Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft, Apple distribute their work at cost, you do that and let's see what happens.

 

Both are protected by the same laws, the fact that a dev likely has no means to enforce his/her rights makes no difference as that would equate to survival of the fittest stance, "you can't start a lawsuit, sucks being you!! Lemme redistribute then.".

It seems you are based in Germany, of all places that's the unlikeliest one that I can fathom to not be respectful of such things.

Your signature also names the DOD, I assume Dept. Of Defense so you should know you're stepping out of bounds and take an untenable position.

For Pete's sake even the Mame devs in order to go GPL had to explicitly seek authorization from all the past code contributors and at that it happens to be a non-transferable grant.

 

EDIT: so told if you do it for the work for which you have been granted permission then you are doing a great service, nobody is questioning that.

[LianneJaguar64]

Thanks for the sarcasm warning there

[phoenixdownita]

Thanks for the sarcasm warning there

?

[+Sauron]

?

 

Don't worry, there's little that she(?) says that makes any sense.

[phoenixdownita]

 

Don't worry, there's little that she(?) says that makes any sense.

Uh? I may have missed a few chapters, sorry.

[+CyranoJ]

Yay. Just what the world needs. Another potential Aircars version.

[+remowilliams]

Yay. Just what the world needs. Another potential Aircars version.

 

What a great idea. Also is anyone making boxes and manuals for the new Tiny Toons release?

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Atari-Jaguar-Tiny-Toon-Adventures-Unreleased-Demo-Cart-Only-/272365511016

 

[+madman]

 

Also is anyone making boxes and manuals for the new Tiny Toons release?

 

 

[Flojomojo]

Heh