Are CRT-style scan lines important to you?

[keepdreamin]

I don't think much of scan lines because the television I played games on when I was younger (as far as I can remember) didn't have scan lines so much as it had a hexagon effect. I really don't remember what brand it might have been.

 

 

shadow mask. most consumer sets used that setup. Which is why I find it kind of funny with folks tracking down professional monitors for razor sharp scanlines. That's no more "authentic" than using a scanline generator on an HDTV. No one was gaming on those in the 90's, considering they cost like 15 - 20 grand.

[Austin]

 

shadow mask. most consumer sets used that setup. Which is why I find it kind of funny with folks tracking down professional monitors for razor sharp scanlines. That's no more "authentic" than using a scanline generator on an HDTV. No one was gaming on those in the 90's, considering they cost like 15 - 20 grand.

 

The sharp scanlines are nice, but professional monitors offer much more than just that, such as richer colors, sharper pixels, etc. They can make your older console games look like arcade games, and I think that's really awesome (and totally worth it).

[alex_79]

I voted "others", beacuse I only play old consoles using CRT TVs or in emulation with CRT filters active, but not because I think there's need to be color bleed or fuzzyness/interference on the picture (In fact I av-mod my consoles with RGB or if not possible s-video output to get rid of those).
Intead, I want to display the output of those old consoles (mostly the atari 2600 in my case) with the best possible, crystal clear image. And that means CRT!


I disagree on the fact that the crt shadow mask or scanlines are just a technical limitation of the time and that eliminating them (using an emulator without any filters, for example) makes the image like it was intended to be. When those games were developed the only way to test them was displaying on a CRT. Graphics were designed and then adjusted depending on how they looked on that technology. If you use an RGB modded console, connected to an arcade-quality rgb monitor you have a perfect picture, with no color bleed, where all the pixels are perfectly visible. But those pixels are not little colored squares, they're small spots of light, with the bright ones slighly larger than the dark ones, with scanlines to separate them vertically (again, those are thinner in bright areas, and more visible in dark ones) and shadow mask/aperture grille giving a sort of "texture" to large colored areas.

Those characteristics of the CRT technology have the effect of smoothing and merge the pixels to form the full image. When you remove them, you break that illusion and you see the single pixels instead. This get worse by increasing the size of the display.

Some examples from stella emulator with CRT filters (RGB mode) and without:

Here you can see two menacing starships approaching your base on Atlantis:


Here you have a bunch of colored tiles:


Other examples:

 

These pictures are often posted in similar discussion on other forums to show the difference in using TV filters in emulation:
with crt filters:

without:

Look at them in fullscreen. Which one looks better?


I agree with what have been said by others about the advantages of CRT when using real hardware (no lag, compatibility with lightgus, vivid colors, etc). CRTs are still cheap and availables, and that's the best solution to enjoy old consoles. Using a digital TV is ALWAYS a compromise and in that case I prefer emulation (with CRT filters).

[Asaki]

I prefer CRT, especially with things like Genesis, which looks sharper on a real TV than with Kega's NTSC filters.

I was never a big fan of RF, and use composite whenever I can, but I still like RF for really old games like Atari...I always felt like the picture noise made all of those great big, flat, empty spaces of color look more alive.

I don't mind emulation so much, I mean it is what it is, but with real consoles and no upscaling, RF/composite on HDTVs is just too ugly and there's too much input lag.

 

Also, having a CRT setup means there's not as much clutter around the HDTV, and you're not hogging up the movie machine.

[keepdreamin]

I voted "others", beacuse I only play old consoles using CRT TVs or in emulation with CRT filters active, but not because I think there's need to be color bleed or fuzzyness/interference on the picture (In fact I av-mod my consoles with RGB or if not possible s-video output to get rid of those).

Intead, I want to display the output of those old consoles (mostly the atari 2600 in my case) with the best possible, crystal clear image. And that means CRT!

 

 

I disagree on the fact that the crt shadow mask or scanlines are just a technical limitation of the time and that eliminating them (using an emulator without any filters, for example) makes the image like it was intended to be. When those games were developed the only way to test them was displaying on a CRT. Graphics were designed and then adjusted depending on how they looked on that technology. If you use an RGB modded console, connected to an arcade-quality rgb monitor you have a perfect picture, with no color bleed, where all the pixels are perfectly visible. But those pixels are not little colored squares, they're small spots of light, with the bright ones slighly larger than the dark ones, with scanlines to separate them vertically (again, those are thinner in bright areas, and more visible in dark ones) and shadow mask/aperture grille giving a sort of "texture" to large colored areas.

 

Those characteristics of the CRT technology have the effect of smoothing and merge the pixels to form the full image. When you remove them, you break that illusion and you see the single pixels instead. This get worse by increasing the size of the display.

 

Some examples from stella emulator with CRT filters (RGB mode) and without:

 

Here you can see two menacing starships approaching your base on Atlantis:

Atlantis (1982) (Imagic).png

 

Here you have a bunch of colored tiles:

Atlantis (1982) (Imagic)_2.png

 

Other examples:

Barnstorming (1982) (Activision).pngBarnstorming (1982) (Activision)_1.png

Decathlon (1983) (Activision) fixed.pngDecathlon (1983) (Activision) fixed_1.png

Crackpots (1983) (Activision)_2.pngCrackpots (1983) (Activision)_1.png

 

These pictures are often posted in similar discussion on other forums to show the difference in using TV filters in emulation:

with crt filters:

30085-ffvi_ntsc.png

without:

30086-ffvi_upres.png

Look at them in fullscreen. Which one looks better?

 

 

I agree with what have been said by others about the advantages of CRT when using real hardware (no lag, compatibility with lightgus, vivid colors, etc). CRTs are still cheap and availables, and that's the best solution to enjoy old consoles. Using a digital TV is ALWAYS a compromise and in that case I prefer emulation (with CRT filters).

 

 

I don't see any illusion with the 2600 examples. The resolution is so low, nothing blends together. It just looks out of focus.

 

The second example doesn't look any better either, again just looks fuzzy. I'm not sitting that close to the tv, so the pixels don't appear that huge when viewing the full screen example.

 

If that's the look you want, why not take a laptop w/emulator into an eye doctor. Have him step your prescription backwards until you get the fuzzy look you're going for. Now you've got custom retro gaming glasses you can take anywhere.

 

 

But.... If the blurry look is what you want you can do the same with the Framemeister. Just for laughs I set the xrgb output to 480P (which is softer when compared to 720/1080) Turned on scanlines and cranked down the TV's sharpness level. You can mess with the scanline intensity. So between that and sharpness level on the set you can probably get the look you want.

 

Wasn't going for perfect, just an example:

 

 

Edited September 7, 2016 by keepdreamin

[Osgeld]

If that's the look you want, why not ...

 

I was thinking wax paper over the screen

 

 

I get what they are trying to say though

[Keatah]

Stella's filters aren't all that great. The bloom-bleed is pretty lousy, or even non-existent. There's no true mixing of the pixels

[rayik]

The XRGB-mini changed everything, and I now have no active CRTs.

Agreed. An Frameister xrgb-mini makes the old systems look just spectacular on large flat panel monitors. It really is a must have.

 

For best results with the xrgb, modify the systems to output RGB. I've personally modded a NES (nesrgb), 2600 (2600rgb), TurboGrafx 16 and Intellivision. I have the kit (VBXE) and parts to do an Atari 5200 but haven't done it yet.

 

You are probably already aware of this, but there is a 334 page thread on the xrgb here: http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=33450

 

Also, FBX has awesome pixel perfect proportional xrgb mini profiles for various systems here:. http://www.firebrandx.com/framemeisterprofiles.html

[keepdreamin]

Agreed. An Frameister xrgb-mini makes the old systems look just spectacular on large flat panel monitors. It really is a must have.

 

For best results with the xrgb, modify the systems to output RGB. I've personally modded a NES (nesrgb), 2600 (2600rgb), TurboGrafx 16 and Intellivision. I have the kit (VBXE) and parts to do an Atari 5200 but haven't done it yet.

 

You are probably already aware of this, but there is a 334 page thread on the xrgb here: http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=33450

 

Also, FBX has awesome pixel perfect proportional xrgb mini profiles for various systems here:. http://www.firebrandx.com/framemeisterprofiles.html

 

The Framemeister is pretty versatile. For genesis for example, firebrand's profiles perfectly remove the excess overscan.

 

And in keeping with the debate in this thread:

 

Here's a 1080P Genesis 5X profile:

 

or 480P w/scanlines and a some sharpness adjustment on the tv:

[omegadot]

Scan lines aren't something I crave. I take em or leave em. I use a CRT because it has lots of inputs and some of my systems like the N64 are near unplayable on my LCD screens. My CRTs were free other than the space but in my game room it's actually not a big deal. I enjoy light gun games and like others noted, the sensor bar style games don't feel the same way. I don't really want to spend the time / money on the other options to get nice output on my new TVs at this point.

[Osgeld]

The Framemeister is pretty versatile.

 

its also out of reach for most people

[keepdreamin]

 

its also out of reach for most people

 

Huh, they don't seem to have a problem selling a pretty niche product.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/XRGB-Mini-Framemeister-English-Remote-Translation-Overlay-/231052088477?hash=item35cbc7149d:g:udwAAOxygPtSwvBd

[Osgeld]

 

Huh, they don't seem to have a problem selling a pretty niche product.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/XRGB-Mini-Framemeister-English-Remote-Translation-Overlay-/231052088477?hash=item35cbc7149d:g:udwAAOxygPtSwvBd

what are you talking about? its a darn near 400$ gizmo and you link to a remote control overlay?

 

here you go

Edited September 7, 2016 by Osgeld

[keepdreamin]

what are you talking about? its a darn near 400$ gizmo and you link to a remote control overlay?

 

here you go

 

So... they sold 1800+ overlays to people who don't own a Framemeister? You do realize a lot of people purchase it through Solaris too. That 425 is just that one ebay seller.

 

Also, the folks who are most likely to benefit from the xrgb in the first place most likely have spent countless more money on games, outdated consoles, shelving, furniture etc.. etc.. The target audience for this device is for people who have the income to bother with original hardware in the first place, not emulator only users. So your budget argument isn't really applicable.

Edited September 7, 2016 by keepdreamin

[Osgeld]

So... they sold 1800+ overlays to people who don't own a Framemeister?

 

what the heck are you talking about dude, you specifically linked to a remote control overlay it even says in the description

 

"XRGB Mini Framemeister English Remote Translation Overlay"

 

That 425 is just that one ebay seller.

 

 

no its like every ebay seller, even Solaris wants $360.50 BEFORE SHIPPING

 

 

jeez you seriously can not be this dense!

 

 

So your budget argument isn't really applicable.

 

 

It wasnt an argument, its an observation, an argument would have been "its not worth the money to buy a framemeister to upscale a 20$ NES"

Edited September 7, 2016 by Osgeld

[keepdreamin]

 

what the heck are you talking about dude, you specifically linked to a remote control overlay it even says in the description

 

"XRGB Mini Framemeister English Remote Translation Overlay"

 

 

no its like every ebay seller, even Solaris wants $360.50 BEFORE SHIPPING

 

DURH.jpg

 

jeez you seriously can not be this dense!

 

 

It wasnt an argument, its an observation, an argument would have been "its not worth the money to buy a framemeister to upscale a 20$ NES"

 

You said "it's out of reach of most people"

 

I posted a link to the overlay to show that A TON of framemeisters have been sold.

 

how do you not understand this? if it was SOOOOOOooooo out of reach it wouldn't be selling as well as it has.

 

The people this is designed for have the income to even bother with the hobby. How do you not get this. It isn't designed for the 15 year old with a soft modded wii.

[Osgeld]

I posted a link to the overlay to show that A TON of framemeisters have been sold.

 

no you posted a link that A TON of overlays have been sold (and 1800 isnt that big of a number)

 

The people this is designed for have the income to even bother with the hobby. How do you not get this. It isn't designed for the 15 year old with a soft modded wii.

 

 

What an arrogant elitist attitude, so if I dont dedicate a large percentage of my budget to a dedicated game room im a 15 year old with a wii? I think you miss the point of retro gaming

[keepdreamin]

 

no you posted a link that A TON of overlays have been sold (and 1800 isnt that big of a number)

 

 

 

What an arrogant elitist attitude, so if I dont dedicate a large percentage of my budget to a dedicated game room im a 15 year old with a wii? I think you miss the point of retro gaming

 

 

sigh... this isn't complicated, dude. What do you think those overlays are for? That's for 1800 framemeister remotes, meaning 1800 framemeister units, you think they're just selling them by dozens for people to slap on a fridge? and close to 2,000 for a niche hobby of a japanese only product IS alot.

 

Did I ever say gaming on a wii was bad? NO. I didn't, I simply stated the Framemeister is designed for people who own original hardware and want to play it on the HDTV. As such they most likely have the budget for it. Do I really need to explain this to you again? This wasn't a dig at emulator users.

[Osgeld]

That's for 1800 framemeister remotes, meaning 1800 framemeister units, you think they're just selling them by dozens for people to slap on a fridge?

 

I dont know or care what they are doing with them, overlays are not framemeisters, maybe someone bought a box of them and its sitting in the back of a retro store I dunno

 

Did I ever say gaming on a wii was bad?

 

no you just equated it to only children using them

 

NO. I didn't, I simply stated the Framemeister is designed for people who own original hardware and want to play it on the HDTV.

 

yes

 

As such they most likely have the budget for it

 

 

so plugging in a 2600 into a HD TV means people automatically have a large retro budget?

 

Do I really need to explain this to you again?

 

you have not explained a single thing, you are just making random, incoherent, assumptions that have no basis

 

 

This wasn't a dig at emulator users.

then why did you do it

 

anyway im done your going on the ignore list, my brain hurts just trying to comprehend your "logic"

Edited September 8, 2016 by Osgeld

[keepdreamin]

Cool your jets, Mr. Triggered

 

I dont know or care what they are doing with them, overlays are not framemeisters, maybe someone bought a box of them and its sitting in the back of a retro store I dunno

 

Nice cop out.

 

no you just equated it to only children using them

 

uhhh... No I didn't. I was referring to a literal 15 year old who happened to own a soft modded wii. A 15 year old most likely doesn't have the budget for a Framemeister. If I meant to say "Only children own soft modded wiis" I would have used that exact line.

 

 

so plugging in a 2600 into a HD TV means people automatically have a large retro budget?

 

Multiple consoles. A framemeister isn't worth the price of admission if your setup is just one NES or Genesis etc..

 

you have not explained a single thing, you are just making random, incoherent, assumptions that have no basis

 

I think I've explained it pretty simply that a bunch of Framemeisters have been sold beyond Micomsoft's expectation. I can't help it if your brain can't comprehend this and instead likes to infer hidden messages that aren't actually there.

 

then why did you do it

 

Again, I DIDN'T. All that took place inside your head.

 

So, is outrage a common thing with you?

Edited September 8, 2016 by keepdreamin

[NinjaWarrior]

CRT only for me

[Osgeld]

CRT only for me

I wish I had the space for a decent and good sized CRT, but not right now

[rayik]

Yes, Frameister xrgb minis are expensive. $360 cost is just the start. RGB cables are about $25 each and you usually need a different cable for each system. Plus, for old systems there is the cost of modifying them to output RGB (kit and possibly installation). Full set ups can easily by 2x or 3x the cost of the xrgb.

 

Yes, it is not something for everyone. Cost makes it kind of exclusive.

 

However, if you can afford the cost, you end up with a gorgeous retro image on large flat panels.

[the.golden.ax]

very important

[Ramses]

I love me some shadow masks and scan lines. The colors on CRTs are gorgeous as well. I was just playing the Sonic Genesis trilogy a little while ago on my Trinitron and the lava in those games was so bright, it glowed like it really was molten and on fire. On my LCD it just looks flat and lifeless in comparison, even with the saturation and brightness turned up.

Edited September 8, 2016 by Ramses