The 7800GD (New 7800 Flash Cartridge?)

[SainT]

To make a 7800 flash cart work on a 2600, you need a pin adapter or a PCB with retractable pins. Further complicating things, once booted into 2600 mode, the 7800 cannot be made to re-enable 7800 mode. You can however go from 7800 mode to 2600 mode via software.

 

So in order to make a dual mode cart work, it would need to be flashed with two firmware images, one for 2600 and one for 7800. Then you need a foolproof method to select the correct firmware when inserted. So much simpler to just have a 7800 mode menu that can flash both 2600 and 7800 software, and possibly make a separate 2600 cart.

 

Well assuming the mixing circuitry for the sound input pin on the 7800 socket remains active in 2600 mode, there is no reason why 2600 software with extra pins cannot utilize it when played on a 7800. The downside is that you have a 2600 game that can only be played using a 7800 console.

 

Yeah, I've already said it would need an adapter in the very first post I made on this topic. All this talk of retractable pins is bizarre though -- think NES / Famicom converter. Its just a female to male adapter board.

 

To run the game I'd just reboot the system with the new ROM image loaded. The console would then pick 2600 / 7800 mode as normal. This is the way I've handled it for NGP (which has B/W & Colour modes) and Lynx so far without problems. I'm pretty sure the same will be true of the 7800. The only thing which I'm not sure if its possible or not is to write software which is compatible with 2600 and 7800. As the physical cart restriction can be removed with an adapter, the remaining thing is the authentication of the 7800 cart. If the cart authenticates as a 7800, but is run on a 2600, I'm not sure if the entry point is such that the code would still run. You could then identify in software (by looking for MARIA) if you're on a 7800 or 2600 and run code accordingly for the menu.

 

People have already found audio mixing isn't enabled by default, so I don't think there's any option for 2600 POKEY apart from external photo jacks.

 

Edit: Ah,scratch the 2600/7800 reboot trick. As this would be a software reboot the lock bit would still be set... it would need a hardware reboot. The only way around this would be for the power to the 7800 to go via the cart itself and be switched on and off! Lol, possible, though.

Edited May 3, 2017 by SainT

[Andromeda Stardust]

Krikzz GB, GBA, and PCe flashcarts used a pseudo-reset mode. I believe they worked by using the reset pin on the cart port (the Game Boy and PC Engine do not have a console side reset switch but do have a cart side reset). Unfortunately, I don't know if it is possible to reset the 2600/7800 in this manner. There definitely isn't a reset pin on the cart bus.

[SainT]

Krikzz GB, GBA, and PCe flashcarts used a pseudo-reset mode. I believe they worked by using the reset pin on the cart port (the Game Boy and PC Engine do not have a console side reset switch but do have a cart side reset). Unfortunately, I don't know if it is possible to reset the 2600/7800 in this manner. There definitely isn't a reset pin on the cart bus.

 

No, indeed, there's nothing like that on the 2600 or 7800 cart port. I believe the only option would be a power cycle of the console and a big capacitor in the cart to allow it to keep running long enough to survive the power cycle. It's certainly possible, though!

 

Or just have a 2600/7800 switch on the top......

 

Either way, there are options.

[Andromeda Stardust]

 

No, indeed, there's nothing like that on the 2600 or 7800 cart port. I believe the only option would be a power cycle of the console and a big capacitor in the cart to allow it to keep running long enough to survive the power cycle. It's certainly possible, though!

 

Or just have a 2600/7800 switch on the top......

 

Either way, there are options.

I like the toggle switch idea. The switch could select the MSB of the flash ROM. If you have a USB updater like Haromony, the firmware for both could be provided in a single file.

 

Another option is the old double ender. 2600 pinout on one side, 7800 pinout on the other.

[SainT]

I like the toggle switch idea. The switch could select the MSB of the flash ROM. If you have a USB updater like Haromony, the firmware for both could be provided in a single file.

 

Another option is the old double ender. 2600 pinout on one side, 7800 pinout on the other.

 

Oooh, double ended. Interesting thought!

[DBloke]

 

I'm about to get stuck into the Jag SD again. Have been busy finalising the NeoGeo Pocket cart.

Two things I want

 

Ok maybe not the Neogeo Pocket one as I have the games I want for it

[MrBeefy]

I would just like a 7800 option. If I want the 2600 games I'd get a harmony. Would it be easier to get a fully functioning cart if the 2600 part was removed?

[Andromeda Stardust]

I could really use a new SD card for 7800. I tried and failed to convert a Concerto into a 2600-compatible Encore. Encore firmware = success. Physical modification = fail. Still fits into the 7800 socket, but not a 2600 socket, and now only ever good for playing 2600 games on a 7800...

 

Fitting it into a 2600 would require modification of the socket, and I'm not hacking up my 4-switcher.

[SIO2]

You could use a 2600 cart to hack yourself an adapter or extension.

 

First FrankEncore cart?

Edited May 12, 2017 by SIO2

[rjchamp3]

I would so buy one I am phasing out carts for everdrives

[Shawn]

You could use a 2600 cart to hack yourself an adapter or extension.

 

First FrankEncore cart?

 

I've made such extension carts for people in the past. They work well for getting 3rd party carts that don't fit well into the system playing. Saves from the worry of modding the cart glide on the console or God forbid the cart shell breaking from force.

[CPUWIZ]

I still have an ancient extension board...

[+-^CrossBow^-]

 

I've made such extension carts for people in the past. They work well for getting 3rd party carts that don't fit well into the system playing. Saves from the worry of modding the cart glide on the console or God forbid the cart shell breaking from force.

 

Tigervision carts...

 

I'm lucky (Kinda...) in that I have #100 of the original released hi-score carts for the 7800 (Doesn't work at all though...). And I've really only been able to use it as a cart extender to play tigervision carts on my 7800 since the passthrough function of the cart works just fine.

[Shawn]

 

Tigervision carts...

 

I'm lucky (Kinda...) in that I have #100 of the original released hi-score carts for the 7800 (Doesn't work at all though...). And I've really only been able to use it as a cart extender to play tigervision carts on my 7800 since the passthrough function of the cart works just fine.

 

A lot of the high score carts didn't work. Myself it took me over a year to get mine back from Curt Vendel after I sent it back to him. After I got it back it worked for the most part but not all the time and it ate batteries like you would not believe. I guess the ones with the upgraded NVRAM worked much better but I didn't want to take the risk after all the BS with the first one.

[desiv]

Just an outlying thought on some of the previous conversations in this thread about the connection of multicart and homebrew sales..

 

Couldn't the designer of the multicart design it so it wouldn't run homebrews (or certain homebrews)?

Kind of a copy-protection type of thing?

Something that the homebrew devs and the multicart guys work out???

 

Not saying it would make everyone (anyone) happy, but just a thought..

 

desiv

Edited May 19, 2017 by desiv

[+DrVenkman]

UGH! No.

 

The 7800 was locked down like that to begin with and it's only due to some lucky digital dumpster diving to crack the scheme that gave us the vibrant homebrew and emulation scene we have today.

[Jinks]

Some just have demos if too afraid of "sales" some don't care and not make games just for money. Whatever their reason for however roms are distributed is tottaly up to the maker of the games. I just play em and buy whatever games on cart I can afford.

[RamrodHare]

I just play em and buy whatever games on cart I can afford.

Exactly! I'm all for supporting the homebrew Devs. I'll by any game that I like playing, if I can afford it, just to have the cart as part of my collection. However, when it comes to rare Atari carts or no longer produced homebrew carts that go for insane amounts, A working flash cart is my only option. My issues are that I showed up late to the game and don't have an unlimited cash flow. There are a bunch of Homebrews that were released on carts, that I never knew about until they were all gone. If I want to buy those now, I'd have to pay more than I could ever afford to spend and none of that money would go to the developers. If the Devs were willing to sell the rom, I'd gladly pay to use it, since it would be affordable and would still earn them a bit of money for their hard work.

If I want to play Alien Brigade on a flash cart, it's not hurting anyone.

The same goes for any cart that's no longer in production.

The only way a flash cart becomes an issue is when people start sharing the roms from new homebrew carts that are being sold at that time. As it stands right now, I'm seriously considering the Mateos 16 in 1 multicart, but as soon as a working flash cart is up for grabs, I'll be all over it.

[DrSidneyZweibel]

Just an outlying thought on some of the previous conversations in this thread about the connection of multicart and homebrew sales..

 

Couldn't the designer of the multicart design it so it wouldn't run homebrews (or certain homebrews)?

Kind of a copy-protection type of thing?

Something that the homebrew devs and the multicart guys work out???

 

Not saying it would make everyone (anyone) happy, but just a thought..

 

desiv

there is so much legal grey area here though...

 

For the most part, the commercial roms being used in these carts are still under copyright protection with whomever owns the IP on them, so most multicart users are already breaking the law with commercial roms, especially from the larger companies who still enforce their IP rights like Activision, Atari, Coleco, Sega, Nintendo.

 

Also - many of these homebrews, regardless of how awesome they are, are made using character likenesses, and gameplay designs that the homebrew devs are not authorized to use in the first place, which is a dodgy gambit.

 

Homebrew devs deserve as much profit or recouped expenses as they can obtain, surely. But outlawing sd carts is highly hypocritical.

Edited May 20, 2017 by DrSidneyZweibel

[RevEng]

I'm not personally in favor of DRM, but I do support authors being able to choose what to do with their own works.

 

 

For the most part, the commercial roms being used in these carts are still under copyright protection with whomever owns the IP on them, so most multicart users are already breaking the law with commercial roms, especially from the larger companies who still enforce their IP rights like Activision, Atari, Coleco, Sega, Nintendo.

It may be a legal grey area, but I don't think it's a moral or tactical one. To these companies the 7800 market isn't pining for the fjords - it's dead. Playing their games on flash carts or even creating repos doesn't hurt their bottom line, and they have no future game efforts to discourage. The same isn't true for homebrews.

 

 

Also - many of these homebrews, regardless of how awesome they are, are made using character likenesses, and gameplay designs that the homebrew devs are not authorized to use in the first place, which is a dodgy gambit.

 

Homebrew devs deserve as much profit or recouped expenses as they can obtain, surely. But outlawing sd carts is highly hypocritical.

Let me get this straight. You're saying that because some homebrew authors deal in decades-abandoned properties on a decades-abandoned platform, that all homebrew authors deserve no options to choose what platforms they release their creation on?

 

Nobody said we should outlaw SD Carts. desiv just suggested opt-in protection for homebrewers that want it. I wouldn't use it, but I don't particularly like being told I shouldn't be allowed to use it either.

 

The 7800 audience is an extremely limited market. Nobody in the scene is making money enough to make it worth their while - working the lowest rung retail job would be a massively more profitable use of your time. The whole 7800 scene is a gift economy, from CPUWIZ board designs, to development tools, to the homebrews themselves. If people are trying to put conditions on how our gifts should be delivered, I'm going to say f*ck it, and not bother anymore. Wouldn't want to be a hypocrite.

[BILLYonaire]

I'm interested.

[DrSidneyZweibel]

I'm not personally in favor of DRM, but I do support authors being able to choose what to do with their own works.

 

 

 

It may be a legal grey area, but I don't think it's a moral or tactical one. To these companies the 7800 market isn't pining for the fjords - it's dead. Playing their games on flash carts or even creating repos doesn't hurt their bottom line, and they have no future game efforts to discourage. The same isn't true for homebrews.

 

 

 

Let me get this straight. You're saying that because some homebrew authors deal in decades-abandoned properties on a decades-abandoned platform, that all homebrew authors deserve no options to choose what platforms they release their creation on?

 

Nobody said we should outlaw SD Carts. desiv just suggested opt-in protection for homebrewers that want it. I wouldn't use it, but I don't particularly like being told I shouldn't be allowed to use it either.

 

The 7800 audience is an extremely limited market. Nobody in the scene is making money enough to make it worth their while - working the lowest rung retail job would be a massively more profitable use of your time. The whole 7800 scene is a gift economy, from CPUWIZ board designs, to development tools, to the homebrews themselves. If people are trying to put conditions on how our gifts should be delivered, I'm going to say f*ck it, and not bother anymore. Wouldn't want to be a hypocrite.

uh, Atari has made 7 different versions of its flashback consoles featuring exactly these "long dead" properties. Sega has officially licensed new consoles that work with their original carts, and the Nintendo Mini was quite literally the hottest selling video game item of 2016.

 

These companies are very much interested in profiting from these long dead and abandoned platforms.

 

Again - I'm not saying homebrew authors and sellers don't deserve all the profits they can muster. They absolutely do! I just think the argument that one homebrew author seeing maybe 2 or 3 fewer sales because of a viable multicart isn't comparable to a commercial games manufacturer whose ability to employ hundreds or thousands of staff, it's somehow ok for the entire retro gaming community to cut into their profitability in the exact same manner.

 

I own 15ish homebrew carts I've bought either directly from the coder or through the AA store over the years. Every single one of them I bought because I tried the game first in emulation or on a multicart. We're all freaks for this stuff and we consume as much as we can. Multicarts don't stop people from buying individual homebrews nearly that much.

Edited May 20, 2017 by DrSidneyZweibel

[CPUWIZ]

Where do you live? There are probably at least 200-300 people here who only download ROM's for emulators.

 

I have actually built hardware DRM into my VersaBoard, if anyone ever chooses to go that route.

[RevEng]

uh, Atari has made 7 different versions of its flashback consoles featuring exactly these "long dead" properties. Sega has officially licensed new consoles that work with their original carts, and the Nintendo Mini was quite literally the hottest selling video game item of 2016.

 

These companies are very much interested in profiting from these long dead and abandoned platforms.

 

Again - I'm not saying homebrew authors and sellers don't deserve all the profits they can muster. They absolutely do! I just think the argument that one homebrew author seeing maybe 2 or 3 fewer sales because of a viable multicart isn't comparable to a commercial games manufacturer whose ability to employ hundreds or thousands of staff, it's somehow ok for the entire retro gaming community to cut into their profitability in the exact same manner.

You're talking about a bunch of different platforms, and we were talking about the 7800. With one exception, the flashbacks were 2600 units. The exception was Curt Vendel's NOAC flashback 13 years ago that played some 7800 look-a-like ROMs. Not seeing a lot of corporate interest in the 7800, to be honest. If you can show me the commercial manufacturer with hundreds of staff that are servicing the 7800 community, or plan to service the 7800 community, I'd be most interested.

 

 

 

I own 15ish homebrew carts I've bought either directly from the coder or through the AA store over the years. Every single one of them I bought because I tried the game first in emulation or on a multicart. We're all freaks for this stuff and we consume as much as we can. Multicarts don't stop people from buying individual homebrews nearly that much.

Maybe, maybe not. When the 2600 Harmony was produced, homebrew sales went down. Maybe the 7800 will buck the trend. Lets hope.

 

Only you're saying that homebrewers shouldn't be given the choice, because that would make them "hypocrites". Surely if it doesn't affect sales, they won't bother with it. Why not give them the choice, without some weird attempt to shame them?

 

I'm really not sure how you're reconciling buying those homebrew games, and your stance that the "entire retro gaming community" are complicit in cutting into retro-supporting corporate profitability.

 

Similarly, I'm not sure why you feel it's fine to own a non-DRM SD Cart, even though it's undercutting your 7800-supporting corporations and the homebrew scene. It seems to me your unstated philosophy is "I get all of your stuff the way I want it, and not the way the game authors want".

 

And yet it's somehow the homebrewers that are the hypocrites.

[DrSidneyZweibel]

I'm not saying homebrewers are hypocrites. I'm saying I find it an odd style of mental gymnastics that in the same breath someone wants to limit the potential to rip off a home brewer who *freely* provides their roms to the forum here, knowing people will play them without paying, but yet doesn't have a problem with the promotion of playing thousands of stolen/illegal rom files from a commercial source.

 

I suppose it's a bit of honor among thieves or something, in that it's ok to rip off the big corporation because they won't feel it, but not ok to do it to a hobbyist. I get the notion. I understand the sentiment. But it's all thievery in the end. And a 7800 sd cart would typically by design support 2600 compatibility, which then opens the door to the theft of thousands of actively sold IPs. So while defending the little guy sounds more noble, it's really the same thing either way - to me.

 

I wouldn't want an sd cart that can't play homebrews and hacks, because there are tons of homebrews and hacks that aren't released on cart, and emulation still isn't the same thing. If a home brewer chooses to code some drm into their rom to prevent SD cart use - great, more power to them. But doing it at the ad cart level seems a bit presumptuous.