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Kyle22

Monitors that work with NTSC computer and PAL ANTIC (NTSC-50)

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I just put a PAL ANTIC (C021698) into my Incognito 800 in hopes of running Numen and Dimo's Quest, and all the other good PAL only stuff.  The trouble is that my monitor, a Sharp Aquos LC-13B2UA, shows a monochrome picture.  It has many modes available: N358, N443, PAL, PAL-M, PAL-N, SECAM, PAL-60, and Auto.  It has no NTSC-50 mode.  Yes, I tried them all with no luck.

 

Does anyone know of a good monitor that will work with this?

 

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That's because there is no "NTSC-50" mode officially that I ever heard of, anyway. But, Commodore 1702 and 1084 and a few other monitors (there is a Magnavox equivalent of the 1084) will work with this type of Hybrid even though they were not specifically designed for it. They were designed to work as 50Hz PAL or 60Hz NTSC and just happen to work with a mix of both, but monitors like these are rare. 

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Any flatscreens known to work?  I prefer a CRT, but right now I don't have space on my desk.

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My 1702 works fine with this same config (Incognito 800, ANTIC swap).. I think I had to tweak the vertical hold just slightly, but it will sync with a 50Hz signal. Due to the greater number of scanlines in a PAL frame, the vertical size pot also needed to be adjusted to display the full PAL picture.

 

The reason you're seeing a monochrome picture may be due to your 800 still having an NTSC GTIA chip, which produces a different color signal frequency (NTSC) than your monitor is expecting in PAL mode.

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I tried both NTSC and PAL GTIAs, both with the same result, black and white.

 

Edit: I also tried the full range of the R309 pot.  No difference.

Edited by Kyle22

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But, Commodore 1702 and 1084 and a few other monitors (there is a Magnavox equivalent of the 1084) will work with this type of Hybrid even though they were not specifically designed for it.

 

I've got a Commodore 1081, and this doesn't work with my NTSC 130XE. I'm just getting a b/w picture.

 

I've got an old Grundig "Multisystem" TV set to connect my NTSC gear.

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A similar issue for me, I have tried finding a 50Hz / 60Hz or 100Hz / 120Hz monitor so I can have smooth scrolling on both Pal and Ntsc but unless you spend a LOT of money (so I'm told) you won't find one, like you I would prefer a CRT but all the cheap or free monitors have the same issue 60Hz & 75Hz only be they crt or lcd..

 

Best of luck Kyle...

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I've got a Commodore 1081, and this doesn't work with my NTSC 130XE. I'm just getting a b/w picture.

 

 

 

I presume that's because its an unmodded XE and you are using the composite?

 

Mind you, don't the 1081's only have scart and composite via din anyway?

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I presume that's because its an unmodded XE and you are using the composite?

 

 

Yes, I'm using the composite input with a plain unmodded NTSC 130XE.

 

 

Mind you, don't the 1081's only have scart and composite via din anyway?

 

No, they have (from memory) RGB input via scart and DIN, and composite input via scart and cinch.

Edited by sanny

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Sorry, I had assumed you knew this "trick" only works with separate Chroma/Luma (S-video) input Sanny. But I couldn't say if a 1081 would work the same or not anyway, I've no experience with one. I only know of the 1702 and 1084 (I have 1084S labeled 50/60Hz with separate Chroma/Luma input) and the 1702 I only discovered did this recently, apparently even the NTSC models labeled only as 60Hz, from what I have been told (my guess is they are 50/60Hz PAL/NTSC but not labeled as such, at least in the U.S.).

 

The fact is, I've only had experience with the 1084S, and also until recently, I assumed the NTSC/PAL hybrid could work on any TV/Monitor labeled as 50/60Hz PAL/NTSC compatible. My 1084S is down for repairs and it was the first time I have attempted to use another PAL/NTSC device, namely my LCD projector and my Video-to-VGA adapter and both of them were only in B/W as well with my 1200XL with PAL ANTIC. My solution was to do an entire PAL conversion using Dropcheck's 1200XL PAL GTIA board and 50Hz crystal.

Edited by Gunstar

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I havent ever done any ANTIC/GTIA swapping but I own a NTSC 800XL and all my other machines are PAL.
I have a Philips CM8833 monitor (which is exactly like a 1084, Philips manufactured the 1084 and sold it under its own and also other brands). This monitor only displays a b/w picture with my NTSC 800XL and I actually don't think they were ever designed to handle "the other" system. Remember these were manufactured in the 80's and multi-system TV's/monitors were very very rare and expensive in those days.

At the moment I use a Bang & Olufsen MX4000 CRT TV. This is a late 90's CRT TV which handles Everything I throw at it brilliantly.

I really think you'll need something like a Sony PVM or other professional monitor. Edited by Level42

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I havent ever done any ANTIC/GTIA swapping but I own a NTSC 800XL and all my other machines are PAL.
I have a Philips CM8833 monitor (which is exactly like a 1084, Philips manufactured the 1084 and sold it under its own and also other brands). This monitor only displays a b/w picture with my NTSC 800XL and I actually don't think they were ever designed to handle "the other" system. Remember these were manufactured in the 80's and multi-system TV's/monitors were very very rare and expensive in those days.

At the moment I use a Bang & Olufsen MX4000 CRT TV. This is a late 90's CRT TV which handles Everything I throw at it brilliantly.

I really think you'll need something like a Sony PVM or other professional monitor.

Well, if that Philips is identical to the 1084, and all models of the 1084/CM8833 are the same in what they are capable of displaying, regardless of PAL or NTSC region( Mine is a 1084S-P 50/60Hz as labeled), then it should be capable of doing what I can do with mine. I only ever attempted to use my 1084S-P with full NTSC systems or the hybrid Atari, I have not yet tried to use it with my recent full PAL conversion on my 1200XL (because it the 1084 needs repairs). I did the full PAL conversion because my 1084 broke. My hybrid would not show color on my PAL compatible projector or video-to-VGA adapter, so I was forced to do a full PAL conversion so I could have color (if I wanted PAL compatiblity)

 

But mind you, the entire point of the hybrid NTSC GTIA and PAL ANTIC mod is for PAL compatibility with most PAL programs without a full PAL modification, and the very reason it gets color on my 1084S-P is it is not specifically NTSC or PAL region, but both, it doesn't even mention NTSC or PAL on the monitor, just 50/60Hz (unless the "P" at the end of 1084S-P stands for "PAL"). With the hybrid 8-bit it's still NTSC color, but a 50Hz refresh rate and PAL resolution. Even the crystal remains 60Hz. and it must be separate chroma and luma input (I think).It seems to work on only a select set of monitors, one for sure being my 1084S-P 50/60Hz monitor.

 

I was told in a P.M. discussion with another Atari Age member, Paul Westphal, that he uses both PAL GTIA and PAL ANTIC in their NTSC Atari, just a straight swap, no PAL GTIA board and 50Hz crystal, like Dropcheck's at Bits of the Past, that his duel-chip hybrid works fine with PAL color and 50Hz refresh, still with 60Hz crystal, on his NTSC-60Hz (as labeled) 1702 monitor. So I'm thinking it has to be a region-free 50/60Hz monitor as well, but just labeled as NTSC for the NTSC market.

 

It's something that's not suppose to work, but it does. The brain child of Nir Dary. 

Edited by Gunstar

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I was told in a P.M. discussion with another Atari Age member, Paul Westphal, that he uses both PAL GTIA and PAL ANTIC in their NTSC Atari, just a straight swap, no PAL GTIA board and 50Hz crystal, like Dropcheck's at Bits of the Past, that his duel-chip hybrid works fine with PAL color and 50Hz refresh, still with 60Hz crystal, on his NTSC-60Hz (as labeled) 1702 monitor. So I'm thinking it has to be a region-free 50/60Hz monitor as well, but just labeled as NTSC for the NTSC market.

 

 

This setup does NOT work "fine"... the display is distorted and the colors are seriously off with this modification. Perhaps it's close enough to run demos in the background at a show, but the results are disappointing for an everyday machine or for gaming.

 

There's a thread about this here.

 

Not knocking anyone, I just want people that are seeking a PAL-software-on-an-NTSC-machine solution (a perfect solution to this is a holy grail of mine) to be warned before spending their time and money buying and installing PAL chips.

Edited by adam242

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This setup  does NOT work "fine"... the display is distorted and the colors are seriously off with this modification. Perhaps it's close enough to run demos in the background at a show, but I could not use this on an everyday machine or for gaming.

 

There's a thread about this here.

 

Not knocking anyone, I just want people that are seeking a PAL-software-on-an-NTSC-machine solution (a perfect solution to this is a holy grail of mine) to be warned before spending their time and money buying and installing PAL chips.

I don't know which "setup" you are referring to exactly, whether PAL GTIA and PAL ANTIC in an NTSC Atari, or just the PAL ANTIC, or both, and which monitor you are using with which "setup," But I know from personal experience, I used it for years, than my PAL ANTIC only NTSC 1200XL with Supervideo 2.1 mod and my 1084S-P monitor not only worked "fine," but it worked flawlessly with a perfect picture. Yes, for PAL games the color was off, but there's this magic little dial on the monitor marked "tint" (A feature NTSC color has that PAL color doesn't, apparently-at least not on my PAL compatible projector) and when adjusted, could match the PAL colors pretty close, or at least to my satisfaction, and a great picture with great color is something I'm picky about being, otherwise I wouldn't bother doing SV 2.1 upgrade). NTSC games still worked perfectly, although in the PAL "letterbox" screen style, and color was normal. The picture all around is super sharp and colorful thanks to the SV 2.1 video mod. I would still be happily using my hybrid 1200XL with a wonderful picture if my 1084S-P was still operational. I only did a full PAL conversion when I lost the 1084S-P and had to use another PAL compatible video source. I will do this hybrid Nir Dary mod again on my 800XL once I get my 1084S-p monitor working again (PSU issue).

Edited by Gunstar

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I don't know which "setup" you are referring to exactly, whether PAL GTIA and PAL ANTIC in an NTSC Atari, or just the PAL ANTIC, or both, and which monitor you are using with which "setup," But I know from personal experience, I used it for years, than my PAL ANTIC only NTSC 1200XL with Supervideo 2.1 mod and my 1084S-P monitor not only worked "fine," but it worked flawlessly with a perfect picture. Yes, for PAL games the color was off, but there's this magic little dial on the monitor marked "tint" and when adjusted, could match the PAL colors quite well. NTSC games still worked perfectly, although in the PAL "letterbox" screen style, and color was normal. The picture all around is super sharp and colorful thanks to the SV 2.1 video mod. I would still be happily using my hybrid 1200XL with a wonderful picture if my 1084S-P was still operational. I only did a full PAL conversion when I lost the 1084S-P and had to use another PAL compatible video source. I will do this hybrid Nir Dary mod again on my 800XL once I get my 1084S-p monitor working again (PSU issue).

 

The setup to which I'm referring is an NTSC Atari with PAL ANTIC and PAL GTIA on a Commodore 1702 monitor.

 

I couldn't agree more with your personal experience.. I have used the same (1200XL with SV2.1 and PAL ANTIC) on a 1702 for years with excellent results. Perfect color, clear, sharp picture. This hybrid setup works fantastic most of the time.

 

The trouble arises when a PAL GTIA chip is swapped into an NTSC Atari. The picture will be horrible. Look at the screenshots in the thread I referenced. It's not a question of adjusting the tint. (please don't be so condescending)

 

The Nir Dary and Paul Westphal mods are NOT the same thing.

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The setup to which I'm referring is an NTSC Atari with PAL ANTIC and PAL GTIA on a Commodore 1702 monitor.

 

I couldn't agree more with your personal experience.. I have used the same (1200XL with SV2.1 and PAL ANTIC) on a 1702 for years with excellent results. Perfect color, clear, sharp picture. This hybrid setup works fantastic most of the time.

 

The trouble arises when a PAL GTIA chip is swapped into an NTSC Atari. The picture will be horrible. Look at the screenshots in the thread I referenced. It's not a question of adjusting the tint. (please don't be so condescending)

 

The Nir Dary and Paul Westphal mods are NOT the same thing.

Sorry, I wasn't trying to sound or be condescending, just a little sarcastic.  ;)  And I should have paid more attention to what exactly you quoted, I was replying more on the flow of the thread and I was confused what you meant by "setup" and others could be too. I just wanted to make sure that people knew the Nir Dary mod did, work "fine," at least on a 1084S-P. Now thanks to you I know it also works fine on a 1702.

 

I am aware that adding in a GTIA PAL in an NTSC with PAL ANTIC  (Paul Westphal mod) isn't the same as Nir Dary mod. But I had no experience with it, and from my conversation with Paul, the impression I got from him was that it worked "fine." Maybe I got the wrong impression, or maybe he's not so picky about his picture quality. I did attempt Paul's mod before installing Dropcheck's PAL GTIA board and doing the full PAL conversion, but not on my 1084, just on my PAL compatible projector, and it didn't work well at all with it. But that's not a 1702.

Edited by Gunstar

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