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ParanoidLittleMan

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http://atari-forum.com/viewtopic.php?f=104&t=28003&start=100

So, I learned for me new English word: "nefarious" :)

He must knowing what he talks - he is who let back D-Bug (pirate crew) on forum, after they were banned.

And I guess that spreading diverse images of copyprotected SW on forum is not nefarious.

But this is year 2016, everything is possible. Just not being honest and fair :(

P.S. my nick is here taken from one of MugUK's PM - he called me "paranoid ..." :D

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Just ignore the nefarious comment - the way I see things is:- at the moment no other person on the planet has taken any interest what so ever in getting Atart ST games running from HDD, with enhancements in many cases. You are the only person who is willing to spend his own time doing this, and sharing it for free with the public. That to me is amazing! There are different ways of preserving software, yes there's the exact 1 to 1 disk image way of doing things which is great for historic preservation, but the current retro community wants to play these games not look at them in a 1 to 1 original disk format and have to use disk emulators etc. Whilst I love the HXC floppy emulator, its nowhere near as good as being able to run from HDD.

 

I also question where the benefit is in preserving the original media structure of any game - if the game works that's all that most people are interested in. How many people will seriously want to look back at disk protection schemes for the ST in 20 or 30 years - very likely no one. I happen to think that when our generation dies out the ST and all other consoles / systems from the 80's and 90's will end up in museums or landfill. What we value now will diminish with each new generation. Just take a look at 8 track and other vintage formats and you will realise that what is currently a collectors market diminishes over time. Time is the factor, as time passes new generations care less and less about previous technology.

Edited by GadgetUK
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Good points GadgetUK . Interesting is that I recently expressed my thoughts there in some general preservation threads there, and I said some similar things. But it seems, that at AF most of threads is oriented in exact floppy preservation, and some even favorise using strictly floppies, no HxC and like.

By me it is good that diverse people has diverse orientations, so those who like to deal with low level floppy things do for sure very useful job. Problems start when they claim that it is only right way and similar.

Namely: DrCoolzic is main floppy expert in area of supporting SW and documentation. Jim Drew is main in floppy preservation HW + supporting SW for it, Ijor is behind very successful Pasti project - what by me has long future, despite being emulator oriented (actually right because that :)) . There is other people who care rather about preservation of unprotected floppies - we have some utils made in last years for that. I'm sadly only one who deals at moment with adaptations for mass storage. I really don't get why people likes more floppy way, all those disk (or image) swaps, slowness, sometimes SW bugs, having not cheat options, etc. It seems almost like religion, maybe dogma :? . They think that SW publishers, authors are some saints, and we need to keep all it completely unchanged. I don't think that even authors self, most of them, will agree with that. They know that every work has its errors. and that everything can be done better.

Maybe really the collector spirit is what rules there.

 

What hurts is constant ignoring of many time said facts: hard disk adaptations are not crack. Not even patch - but that word is most used. It may be patch in some cases, simpler cases. But to achieve that all games work, you need much more than replacing floppy access code with hard disk access code:

1. Solving TOS incompatibility problems, then RAM usage problems, what is related with TOS versions.

2. Must "crack" it much better than some floppy release - because must kill all floppy access, to deactivate more checksums - and they may appear at late stages, so need to test it more too

3. Deactivating code parts which may access higher RAM (over 512KB for instance), because that will kill our harddisk, keyboard watching and other code

4. Fixing IKBD bugs is games - and there is a lot of it, because it makes more problems that when running from floppy.

5. Solving Falcon, TT compatibility if possible - and it is except in case of some tricky scrolling for instance.

6. Solving save of gamestates, exit to Desktop

7, In my case there is making of YouTube video, screenshots, DL page, etc - it takes at least 1-2 hours/game .

 

It really pathetic to use terms pirate and cracker today for old Atari SW. Nobody makes money with that. Cracking is just removing of copy protection, without many excitement and bragging - it is easier part in most cases.

I even received thanx from couple SW authors for "keeping our work alive" . That's the true preservation by me. Preserving and improving (usage) :)

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For what it is worth, I am deeply grateful for the work you have done to preserve and make available, in a practical sense, some of the most important things in my entire world.

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I think keeping games in a floppy capable format is a must, why .. because new people who buy Atari computers will first look for games to play, floppy images, and copy them onto real floppy to play. They are not going to buy HxC or flux or anything at first. If they like the games and the machine, then likely first upgrade will be a hard drive. So they look for HD adapted games, and run from drive. So both floppy and hard drive adapted games are vert important IMHO. There is no use having images in some odd format if new people have no idea what they are or how to use them. Floppy is a solid technology, will HxC still be going in 20 years time ?

 

Format capable for Steem and emulation is also good. Some people may try emulation for games before buy real hardware.

 

In regards to copying originals, I think mostly with so many versions of games, so many bad cracks, or broken images, or not working games, people are imaging the originals to be on the safe side. then should all cracks for some game be bad. At least someone would have a original copy somewhere to start again.

 

I did have a thread over on AF about "future of retro machines" if anyone is interested in that thread..http://atari-forum.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=29027

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I think keeping games in a floppy capable format is a must, why .. because new people who buy Atari computers will first look for games to play, floppy images, and copy them onto real floppy to play. They are not going to buy HxC or flux or anything at first. If they like the games and the machine, then likely first upgrade will be a hard drive. So they look for HD adapted games, and run from drive. So both floppy and hard drive adapted games are vert important IMHO. There is no use having images in some odd format if new people have no idea what they are or how to use them. Floppy is a solid technology, will HxC still be going in 20 years time ?

 

Format capable for Steem and emulation is also good. Some people may try emulation for games before buy real hardware.

 

In regards to copying originals, I think mostly with so many versions of games, so many bad cracks, or broken images, or not working games, people are imaging the originals to be on the safe side. then should all cracks for some game be bad. At least someone would have a original copy somewhere to start again.

 

I did have a thread over on AF about "future of retro machines" if anyone is interested in that thread..http://atari-forum.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=29027

You raise some valid points, but I personally think HxC or similar replacements are more likely to outlast actual floppies etc. I think in 20 years lots of disks will be on their way out - that's one of the reasons things like HxC were created, not just to make it easier to load from SD etc but to find a solution to the analogue problems of disks. I recently came to test some of my ST games that worked 20+ years ago to find that several of them had developed problems over the years in storage =/ That's something I expect to worsen over the next 20 years.

 

I am not trying to dispute the beneficial reasons of preserving original disk structure and layout - it's worth doing, but I question how useful it will be to future generations. I think we all kid ourselves that the systems we love and cherish will continue to be loved and cherished by future generations like we did. I think if you could jump 100 years into the future you would only find these systems in museums, at which point no one will really care about the original flux layout of a game for the ST, but they might consider playing a given game on some emulator or something. Depressing thought lol, makes you wonder why we do all this retro stuff and remain attached to it =D

 

I agree that floppies are the first thing someone looks at when trying to get into the ST scene, but they very quickly realise its not practical and then look for a HxC or UltraSatan etc. I personally think there would be more value in analysis of the original formats being published - ie. documentation that explains the format and how it was created, how the protection works with commented disassembly listings etc, and the pros / cons of approach, cracking techniques, history behind the scheme etc. That is historic information of value to future generations imo. All of that said, I am glad someone is working on archiving all of the original disks in an unaltered way, but that's because I find it interesting and useful but future generations probably won't care what 'version' of a game they play in an emulator. I think we assume that the future will be different to the past, but it almost certainly won't! It seems we all like to look back in our own past and we try to carry it forward into the future but as time passes each generation has its own past that it wants to hold onto and anything more distant ends up on the history channel as a documentary =D

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Surely people buying for them unknown retro machine like Atari ST will start with floppies in most cases. Although, it may be pretty troublesome considering conditions of disks, lack of floppy drives in some PC, so can not write images found on WEB to disk, and like. By time, probably we will see on market more configs with UltraSatan and like. But in any case, they will deal most likely with some "nefarious" copy. Here I must mention that I do floppy versions too:

http://atari.8bitchip.info/ASTGA/astgam.php

Usually when I see that no good choice of that title, or what is online is buggy (Potsworth and Co), or I added something new. I could do more, and that will cost not too much time when once solved hard disk work. All depends on demand, my time. I did not say that floppy releases are not of use, but it will move, already moves in HW emulation way.

Indeed, there is lot of bad, incomplete, buggy, with spoiled screens, texts (crackers messages everywhere) releases, but overall percentage is not that bad. And sometimes we still have it as only source. Then, there are bad images, or in some cases just bad handling SW among forensic images/copies (to say so), surely not that much in %-age. So, only way to be sure is testing - rather some real testing of SW with real HW or emulator, than using some image analyzer. All it needs lot of time and people willing to do thorough tests, not just checking is gameplay start. For me, it is biggest problem in preservation at moment.

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I think both approaches are valid for preserving our beloved software, and they have different target.

Forensic technics target two kind of users:

- People who wants the software as it was distributed.

- People who are starting with this computers, and they think this technics is the easiest and cheapest way.

In the other side, disk images and HDD adaptations users prefer them for convenience and speed.

 

I think that all of us are a mix of those three behaviours, and one of this aspects prevails over the others.

 

I prefer HDD adaptations and images, because most of them are easily found in the web, they can have corrected some bugs, and I can enjoy fast with them. When I was young, I could spend 3-4 hours playing a game, but now, my real world life (job, wife, son, friends...) only allows me to play 1 hour or less.

 

The problem arrives when any of the approaches rise in excess, and you start to disregard the others conducts (you become a "tali-fan").

This is a big problem, because nobody has the true reason.

 

And I am sorry, but I don't think floppies would last to much time. Floppy industry have almost close, and finding new goods (those created now) would become really difficult.

Some of the floppy emulators (gotek, hxc...) started for professional use (expensive industry machines which cannot be updated easily, like plastic extruders or HPLC), and we discovered them, so their creators adapted them for the new market niche. So maybe this emulators will last more time, at least until these machines will be replaced.

 

And I am sorry, but our machines will die soon or after, despite the care we put on it, because nothing can stop aging.

FPGA machines (Mist, Zx-UNO...) or emulators would be the only way our descendants could play with our beloved machines.

 

ParanoidLittleMan, don't listen to those "tali-fans". Your efforts are loved for lot of us, as you provide us with great solutions (adaptations, savestates, cheats...). And you are always helping us, using your free time, usually without profits (maybe you don't remember it, but I contacted you about using your ST HD driver in Mist FPGA).

Maybe some of those "tali-fans" would help as you did to me, but most of them only want the praise of the community, and they act as retro-cops (defenders of the true retro-hobby).

 

Enviado desde mi Moto G (4) mediante Tapatalk

Edited by pepilloelgrillo

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Pera,

 

I agree with much of what you said in that thread at atari-forum. And even being a person focused on copy protections, I value and respect your work with HD adaptations.

 

But please, don't bring here the issue of how fair or unfair is or was the moderation on atari-forum. I don't think that's the right way or the right place to deal with that. You want to discuss here the technical issues raised in that thread, that seems perfect to me.

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Things are that there is no place where can discuss it. Nobody wants to be judge. Dal should think better what to write. Especially as he is main admin there. They could edit my posts there, but instead that came that warning - while I already moved discussion to new thread. + that word. Most ironic is that he used those "patches" too, even was involved in some threads, bug reports. I really can not understand such attitude.

Yes, I continued that "deal" . Hopefully some can learn something from this. I learned my part - all bad what I thought and partially said claims to be true :(

+ that being silent solves nothing.

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Oh dear - someone is a little bit too sensitive, eh?

 

Yes - you started a new thread for software preservation, that's great. Definitely the right thing to do when you are talking off-topic on another thread.

 

The topic was focussed around floppy preservation - so there was no business talking about software preservation (which is completely different). Yes, of course I like many others appreciate the work of Pera and anyone else who fixes stuff and makes it work from hard disks - it's the best way of playing all those old games. It is a nefarious act - as it always has been - given it's essentially ripping out protections, modifying code and redistributing it. We accept it on the grounds that it's likely to go unnoticed, but still... what choice do we really have?

 

My choice of language aside - the purpose of that particular thread is to focus on preserving a true digital representation of the original disks in a forensic process. These images are not so likely to be used directly for playing games, however will be of interest to anyone studying old computing techniques around floppy disk production and copy protection. People like Pera also benefit by having a source of original untouched disk images for fixing issues or providing more HD compatible games.

 

There were two people causing an issue in that thread. Both have been dealt with - one decided to run off to another forum demanding attention. Man up and move on.

 

@ParanoidLittleMan/AtariZoll/Pera - You know, I'd have far more respect if you'd simply said "Yeah I accept I was being a bit of a dick, sorry about that - but I have taken offence to your choice of words". At least then we could have had a conversation, a virtual beer and sorted it. Instead I get PMs full of why I'm an arsehole and some kind of trial by witch-hunt on another forum. Not cool man, just not cool.

Edited by Dal_1978

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Surely not cool. And it was second time you used some less known English word, so I needed to look in both cases in dictionary. And it appeared that both words are very negative, actually first word for nefat... was "aljas" - what is something worst in Hungarian. And others were not better. Something like villanious translated back. Funny thing is that people constantly talk about language issues, know that there is big number of non-English members, but they go often on slang, some less known words.

But that's just tip of iceberg. Everyone can see who was prick in that thread, furthermore he is still it, despite I'm out. I believe that he got some warnings in PM, but that's not fair what admin did.

And it is not true that I'm not interested for accurate floppy preservation. Actually, I was very happy when Brume posted SPC image of Great Giana Sisters., and I was able to convert it ti STX with Aufit, then do my "ripping off" etc. :)

But here must explain it little more, since most of people is still in 1988 and cracking, making illegal floppy copyable. Redistributing it ? Sorry, another very bad word I don't distribute, not even for free. I just put it on place where everyone can pick it up.

And even can modify, improve it (further) if wants, and I will not complain, as many crackers did, even added own protections so it is hard to even fix errors :-D Seen somewhere in my rips text about who did it ?

I talked already about modifying code. Truth is that I wish having more time for modifying. I do in 99% cases only what is absolutely necessary to make it work on diverse storage, Mega STE, Falcon, TT. I disassembled about 10 games, what is lot of work, but no time to do some really useful code modifications at moment - like STE samples in Prince of Persia, better scroll and faster commands in Uridium ....

Respect begins whit taking care about what people writes. I don't see that it happened in this case. Then not being ignorant and answer people - I have reasons why not try to resolve this things anymore with nice talk - it was just ignored every time. Sorry, I have to go on work now ....

Edited by ParanoidLittleMan

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To be fair I do not see why his post received such a sharp response, perhaps based on past threads or something? But the way I read it - moderator came down very sharp and fast, if that happened to me I would have felt that I couldn't respond with unbiased moderation. So I get totally why he posted here. But I have assumed that sharpness is based on history or something. To 3rd parties looking in, it seems a little sharp. I don't even see how his post can be taken as trolling.

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Taking out your dirty laundry from one forum to another? There's facebook for that :).

 

Besides, there's nothing stopping him opening a thread on the original forum to discuss it there, right? So that's just signs of shit stirring as far as I'm concerned (and yeah like the OP hasn't done that in the past....)

Edited by ggn
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What the fuck is your obsession with us ? (D-Bug) ? what have we got to do with this shite?

 

just get on with doing what you do. I have moved to the calm waters of SNDH - tranquil and relaxing.

 

Have a good day

Showaddywaddy/D-Bug

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There's no purpose in starting topics like this here about drama from another forum.

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Everyone can see who was prick in that thread, furthermore he is still it

 

They can now, and yes, he is :P

 

plus what Grazey said, lolz.

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