Nothing special

[emkay]

A gen 2 patch like RMT using all generators like the gen 2 ..... 

[VinsCool]

Somehow you only want a patch that does everything holding your hand doesn't it?

 

My own patches were intended to allow many many many more things in the editor itself, but now it sounds like "as long as things automatically switch to 1.79mhz with the correct table when the distortion is used" is the only thing wanted.

 

So much for implementing Tuning, AUDCTL, CMD7 and Two-Tone patches if there is no interest for using them in the first place ?

(Well I DO make use of them, I made this stuff for my personal use after all lol)

[emkay]

12 minutes ago, VinsCool said:

Somehow you only want a patch that does everything holding your hand doesn't it?

 

Maybe

 

But at the end , the goal is to have "real music" playing with POKEY. So it means to have a Tracker at hand that allows to use "tuned" frequencies, just by using it. 

Look at your own "Testtunes" meanwhile you're not doing "music" anymore . The testing goes somewhere with weird experiments  and misses the point of enhancing POKEY music. 

If you like that, fine. 

But the Atari needs a tracker for music CREATION, which is only possible, if a musician can start a POKEY Tracker, put Notes in , and gets the correct results just by the cause of music creation. 

IF THEN someone wants to put experimental stuff in, no one will stop him ... or her  

12 minutes ago, VinsCool said:

 

My own patches were intended to allow many many many more things in the editor itself, but now it sounds like "as long as things automatically switch to 1.79mhz with the correct table when the distortion is used" is the only thing wanted.

 

So much for implementing Tuning, AUDCTL, CMD7 and Two-Tone patches if there is no interest for using them in the first place ?

(Well I DO make use of them, I made this stuff for my personal use after all lol)

Let's use this words: Till today I haven't heard one tune using "two tone" that would touch me in any way. 

It mostly sounds like "outside the tune".

[EnderDude]

22 minutes ago, emkay said:

Let's use this words: Till today I haven't heard one tune using "two tone" that would touch me in any way. 

It mostly sounds like "outside the tune".

If you've been keeping up with the RMT hacking thread, you might notice that making two-tone music is going to be way easier as soon as ivop and phaeron make a version of the Altirra 6502 .dll which supports ivop's tracker.obx so you can hear two-tone in the tracker itself, along with patches. To quote ivop directly:

  

On 10/6/2021 at 11:15 AM, ivop said:

...but I think the easiest path to have a cycle exact combination of CPU and POKEY emulation is that @phaeron adds a tracker.obx loader to his RMT CPU library. Considering there's already an XEX loader in Altirra, I think it's literally less than ten lines of code

It's possible that we might not have to wait long at all, so sit tight! And remember:patience is key.

Edited October 8, 2021 by EnderDude

[VinsCool]

12 minutes ago, emkay said:

But at the end , the goal is to have "real music" playing with POKEY. So it means to have a Tracker at hand that allows to use "tuned" frequencies, just by using it. 

I agree, that was my motivations as well.

13 minutes ago, emkay said:

Look at your own "Testtunes" meanwhile you're not doing "music" anymore . The testing goes somewhere with weird experiments  and misses the point of enhancing POKEY music. 

If you like that, fine. 

Excuse me, what the fuck?

The point is to enhance music making, and many of my test tunes are short and unfinished original compositions too, something I don't recall you doing in the first place.

Of course the weird experiments are intended to prove a point, not everything is a full arrangement published on the get  go, give it some time and I will have more finished project in the future ? 

 

17 minutes ago, emkay said:

But the Atari needs a tracker for music CREATION, which is only possible, if a musician can start a POKEY Tracker, put Notes in , and gets the correct results just by the cause of music creation. 

IF THEN someone wants to put experimental stuff in, no one will stop him ... or her  

Well?  That's precisely my point, there.

My motivation was all of this, so we agree on that, good.

19 minutes ago, emkay said:

Let's use this words: Till today I haven't heard one tune using "two tone" that would touch me in any way. 

...yet

Give it some time, even try it if you believe you can show the good stuff, that's the idea here!

20 minutes ago, emkay said:

It mostly sounds like "outside the tune".

I know tuning is a subjective topic altogether, but with all due respect, and the time I have spent working on finding the best sweet spot for tuning POKEY sounds, you're not in the position to criticise what is "in" and what is "out" my dear squirrel friend

 

I think I actually owe you a thank you in this regard, because it was a lot of your music that motivated me to research this stuff really seriously to prove things can be very nicely tuned, compared to what was already available and labeled as "the standard"

 

The Two-Tone filter in that regard doesn't have the same properties, but in general its tuning is very similar to the High Pass Filter, it gains an octave, and adds a lot of overtone harmonics depending on the frequencies used for it.

[emkay]

2 minutes ago, VinsCool said:

 

Give it some time, even try it if you believe you can show the good stuff, that's the idea here!

I know tuning is a subjective topic altogether, but with all due respect, and the time I have spent working on finding the best sweet spot for tuning POKEY sounds, you're not in the position to criticise what is "in" and what is "out" my dear squirrel friend

 

 

Sorry, but you have moved into some weird spot of "possibly stuffing". 

Well, I appreciate your work on enhancing POKEY music, but this doesn't mean that I'm musically deaf.

Since decades I blamed the wrong (default) pitch setting in POKEY tunes, but all community people told me that is was correct. 

That's the only cause why I did  lots of experiments in the past, checking the possible sounds and drop musically correctnes, as it wasn't possible to get there anyways. 

On the other Hand, the 440Hz tuning allows to handle "all music of the world" . There is no need to put the whole table setting different for every tune. It is just needed to play the correct generator combinations. 

 

[emkay]

15 minutes ago, EnderDude said:

 

It's possible that we might not have to wait long at all, so sit tight! And remember:patience is key.

How patient would you be ?

It's now 36 years ago, when I bought my 800XL. It took me one year to understand the possibilities. 

Not sure , if you understand that, but the Atari was a "hobby" back then, and my life didn't have any other contact to computer business. I tried to find interested people (coders , musicians) till around 1992. 

Most interesting could be that "Coders" mentioned "not possible" or "too complex", while Atari "Musicians" had been satisfied by their own musical results using POKEY. 

Things changed when the Internet did get bigger, and the random finding about some "Raster" guy was developing a Tracker for the Atari. 

[EnderDude]

You can't take a hint, can you?

Edited October 8, 2021 by EnderDude

[emkay]

1 minute ago, EnderDude said:

You can't take a hint, can you?

For you it's just a hint.

[EnderDude]

Dude, these are talented hobbyists who are taking time out of their lives to make a more feature-rich tracker for 42-year-old hardware, and I just saw you shit on one for no reason. Having something is certainly better than nothing, and you'll get nothing if you keep this up. They don't need to do this, you know.

 

Edited October 8, 2021 by EnderDude

[emkay]

2 minutes ago, EnderDude said:

Dude, these are talented hobbyists who are taking time out of their lives to make a more feature-rich tracker for 36-year-old hardware, and I just saw you shit on one for no reason. Having something is certainly better than nothing, and you'll get nothing if you keep this up. They don't need to do this, you know.

 

That's the basis, and the obvious. 

The question is: Why do people think that my point is different?

I'm actually happy that after all this time at least two people appeared, who did the correct steps of a huge stepway. 

If they put my experience of the past into their development, is their option. But it would be wrong, not to show things that could be worth to put into their development. 

 

[VinsCool]

1 hour ago, emkay said:

There is no need to put the whole table setting different for every tune. It is just needed to play the correct generator combinations. 

That's exactly the point I was making there lol

 

Tables are necessary for each combinations, like it or not, that's how it is, and I am just as frustrated as you are.

Which is why I've been trying to do things myself. You know, instead of simply criticising what is "wrong" and what is "right" I've actually tried to prove my point and make certain things possible.

You say you've been doing this for decades but it's contradicting a lot of the things I've been able to do for a time lapse as small as... 3-4 years now?

 

What I'm saying is, I did my best to do something when I wanted to do something, I did not just sit down and pouted, I was motivated to experiment for the purpose of proving a point and making things work in a way I wanted  

Ah and by the way, a 440hz tuning is not a hard rule, just a recommendation, or rather, the popular choice because it just works.

My experiments were not to try getting this 440 perfect, but the relative combination to be as close as possible to an equal number of intervals, which is why my current setup is sharper in NTSC but very close to 440 in PAL-- It was purely out of maths and a bit of coincidental patterns.

1 hour ago, emkay said:

How patient would you be ?

I know I am not a very patient person, so what gives?  

1 hour ago, emkay said:

It's now 36 years ago, when I bought my 800XL. It took me one year to understand the possibilities. 

About a year ago for me to get actual hardware, but maybe 2 years with Emulation to get much of the same.

Again, what does this prove exactly? How long a person can sit down and pout?  

1 hour ago, emkay said:

Not sure , if you understand that, but the Atari was a "hobby" back then

I believe it is still the case today!  

1 hour ago, emkay said:

Most interesting could be that "Coders" mentioned "not possible" or "too complex", while Atari "Musicians" had been satisfied by their own musical results using POKEY. 

Good, so we agree with this  

The difference being that Proving what is "Possible" and "Too Complex to bother" depends on how much time you want to dedicate into something.

And who do you think is putting so many unnecessary measures just to prove a point over the last 6 months or so? Any idea?  

Find someone who is motivated and has the stubbornness of a goat, and you eventually see certain things become possible.

(Did I just compare myself with a goat? Oh well not like I denied this anyway lmfao)

1 hour ago, emkay said:

Things changed when the Internet did get bigger, and the random finding about some "Raster" guy was developing a Tracker for the Atari. 

...and this is what really made everything start for me, personally.

So I am very thankful for all of what was available.

And what was not yet possible, I sure wanted to prove it was in fact possible with the dedication into it.

You would never have seen the Tuning work, or even just the Distortion 2 RMT patch, for example, if I didn't actually try to do something myself in the first place.

 

You know the expression "Fine, I'll do it myself"? That's pretty much what is happening with these things.

I don't know for you, but I always have this drive to prove I am right, and I would often work way too hard just to show I am indeed right.

Maybe it's madness, or maybe it's just dedication, honestly, it's often hard to differentiate, hahaha

1 hour ago, EnderDude said:

You can't take a hint, can you?

Being subtle doesn't work with some people, blame it on the language barrier or the fact some people take everything literally, heheh

1 hour ago, emkay said:

For you it's just a hint.

And this pretty much confirms my point lol (no offence intended Mr Squirrel  )

1 hour ago, EnderDude said:

Dude, these are talented hobbyists who are taking time out of their lives to make a more feature-rich tracker for 42-year-old hardware, and I just saw you shit on one for no reason. Having something is certainly better than nothing, and you'll get nothing if you keep this up. They don't need to do this, you know.

THIS ^

Why is the option to tackle it yourself so unpopular?

I know it's frustrating but it's so satisfying to prove you're right, too...  

59 minutes ago, emkay said:

That's the basis, and the obvious. 

The question is: Why do people think that my point is different?

I'm actually happy that after all this time at least two people appeared, who did the correct steps of a huge stepway. 

If they put my experience of the past into their development, is their option. But it would be wrong, not to show things that could be worth to put into their development. 

All experience is valuable, so you're right there.

Personally, hearing a lot of detuned music was one of the few things that motivated me to try (emphasis on try) to improve things.

Would it be right? No, probably it isn't to other people, but for myself, what I did seems to be a step in the right direction.

 

Here's an example: Many projects I have been working on were explicitly discouraged for various reasons, but that doesn't mean I have to listen the recommendations either  

We're on our own, and if someone wants to do something, let them do, even if it's not the "right" thing, it doesn't mean they aren't enjoying the experiments, and probably learn something new at the end of the day.

But to put this mindset in practice, it's certainly not by sitting down for 36 years, doing nothing but be upset, if you see what I mean  

[ivop]

1 hour ago, VinsCool said:

But to put this mindset in practice, it's certainly not by sitting down for 36 years, doing nothing but be upset, if you see what I mean  

Exactly! You, @Synthpopalooza , @dmsc , @rensoup , @phaeron , myself (and sorry if I forgot somebody) have all done way more to improve POKEY music composing in the last few years.

 

Edit: forgot @mrk Very neat Javascript code!

Edited October 8, 2021 by ivop

[+Stephen]

4 hours ago, ivop said:

Exactly! You, @Synthpopalooza , @dmsc , @rensoup , @phaeron , myself (and sorry if I forgot somebody) have all done way more to improve POKEY music composing in the last few years.

 

Edit: forgot @mrk Very neat Javascript code!

Just think what you could have accomplished if all you did was crap on threads and whine for 36 years though!

[emkay]

9 hours ago, ivop said:

Exactly! You, @Synthpopalooza , @dmsc , @rensoup , @phaeron , myself (and sorry if I forgot somebody) have all done way more to improve POKEY music composing in the last few years.

 

Edit: forgot @mrk Very neat Javascript code!

 You miss the point. 

If rensoup wasn't doing the LZSS player, there still wouldn't be an evidence that RMT is very unstable.

AFTER that, things have been acknowledged and other people did search for a solution. 

Ask rensoup. After playing the fist "filter based" tun in the lzss player, I was astonished of the stability.

Till that point, everything was possible, particular an unstable  Altirra, but Altirra itself is almost close to the real thing (big job by phaeron).

Remember: We are about the possible best music played on the real Atari. 

And Vinscool did a lot useful things lately.

Without them both, even you wouldn't understand my point at all. (remember some years back  )

 

A lot of those old tries to convert tunes , always struggled by the incorrect pitch settings. 

[ivop]

6 hours ago, emkay said:

 You miss the point. 

If rensoup wasn't doing the LZSS player, there still wouldn't be an evidence that RMT is very unstable.

I already knew that before. Everybody did. Timeline was I added pokeyrec to atari800 to record SAP-R. Phaeron added SAP-R to Altirra. Dmsc wrote a compressor. Rensoup wrote a player.

 

6 hours ago, emkay said:

Without them both, even you wouldn't understand my point at all. (remember some years back  )

I won't bite. This childish.

 

6 hours ago, emkay said:

A lot of those old tries to convert tunes , always struggled by the incorrect pitch settings. 

Exactly. That's why I started a spreadsheet to calculate proper frequencies, something I had been saying for years. Vinscool expanded on that, major and minor diatonic transposed to fit dist C.

[VinsCool]

1 hour ago, ivop said:

Vinscool expanded on that, major and minor diatonic transposed to fit dist C

there's still a lot to do on that too, to revisit expand further and document better etc

it paid off already honestly, even with many holes and unclear things remaining

Just Intonation works incredibly well in the Key of C Minor/Major, it's seriously awesome and something that could be really cool to compose for someday

[ivop]

20 minutes ago, VinsCool said:

there's still a lot to do on that too, to revisit expand further and document better etc

it paid off already honestly, even with many holes and unclear things remaining

Just Intonation works incredibly well in the Key of C Minor/Major, it's seriously awesome and something that could be really cool to compose for someday

And also in A minor for example. On a piano, the keys of A minor are the same white keys as the key of C major. You just start your scale at A, instead of C, and play the white keys. And for example, instead of C,F,G progressions, you play Am,Dm,Em progressions

 

It might pay off to find just intonation approximations for each key to Dist C. That's a lot of work, but for now this suffices more than enough. Most songs available seem to be in C, Am, Em, etc... anyway, that's why your new tuning tables sound so good for most songs

 

If the dependency on dist C is dropped (and no dist C instrument is used), true just intonation could also be achieved. And then play Vivaldi like it should sound, instead of all the well-tempered renditions we hear today

[VinsCool]

20 minutes ago, ivop said:

And also in A minor for example. On a piano, the keys of A minor are the same white keys as the key of C major. You just start your scale at A, instead of C, and play the white keys. And for example, instead of C,F,G progressions, you play Am,Dm,Em progressions

Yeah it's pretty much a different mode of C Major if we're going to the technicalities, the same notes are used after all  

D Minor would fit really well in most of the same notes except A# too, but thankfully it does get close enough to still remain functional harmonically, just a little more off than expected, but I think this sounds good that way, hehe

22 minutes ago, ivop said:

It might pay off to find just intonation approximations for each key to Dist C. That's a lot of work, but for now this suffices more than enough. Most songs available seem to be in C, Am, Em, etc...

I agree.

I think the current sweet spot I have settled on may be as good as it could be for a close enough 12 TET scale at least.

The notes are not too out of tune in general for the 3 first octaves, detuning of ~15 cents isn't that bad when you know you can compensate the 3rd octave with the Distortion A (which I pretty much always do now for that very reason)

25 minutes ago, ivop said:

anyway, that's why your new tuning tables sound so good for most songs

Thanks a lot!

I have to admit, I got hooked to my own tuning now, and I feel spoiled, because everything using the original RMT 1.28 tables sounds out of tune to me (and it is indeed more off, backed up with maths,  )

The B based pseudo 12-TET I have been using since the last big experiments really works well so far, I've rarely noticed anything that was really offputting now, which is pretty impressive considering the chip isn't usually very cooperative when it was a question of being tuned well.

28 minutes ago, ivop said:

If the dependency on dist C is dropped (and no dist C instrument is used), true just intonation could also be achieved. And then play Vivaldi like it should sound, instead of all the well-tempered renditions we hear today

16-bit?  There is also 15khz that is an excellent candidate when notes are played in the lower range, assuming nothing is trying to play on the high at the same time, because otherwise, hello dissonance  

The spreadsheet does generate the tables really nicely, which is truly a blessing, despite the few manual corrections necessary in several modes, something I was able to work around with some lookup tables which tells me if it's compatible or not, hehe

There are many Distortion C notes that do fill the gap pretty well, thankfully.

Going down, once the 2nd and 1st octaves are reached, the major problems are almost gone, so much that I'm surprised how good the bass truly is when only the timbre and the volume envelopes become the details to craft in the instruments.

 

Sorry, I got a little more rambly than intended there, hahaha

 

[ivop]

1 hour ago, VinsCool said:

Yeah it's pretty much a different mode of C Major if we're going to the technicalities, the same notes are used after all  

D Minor would fit really well in most of the same notes except A# too, but thankfully it does get close enough to still remain functional harmonically, just a little more off than expected, but I think this sounds good that way, hehe

Emphasize is mine. You know your music theory So many cool "jazz" chords with only the ivory keys CMaj7, Am7, G7, FMaj7, Em7, Dm7. Include an E7 for the needed tension before resolving to C or Am.

 

Quote

The B based pseudo 12-TET I have been using since the last big experiments really works well so far, I've rarely noticed anything that was really offputting now, which is pretty impressive considering the chip isn't usually very cooperative when it was a question of being tuned well.

Yes, it's cool you found a tuning, based on B octaves (instead of A), that match pretty well with dist C basses almost all of the time!

 

Quote

16-bit?  There is also 15khz that is an excellent candidate when notes are played in the lower range, assuming nothing is trying to play on the high at the same time, because otherwise, hello dissonance

15kHz, 64kHz, 1.79MHz, 16-bit, stereo, as long as it's not dist C A true just intonated song could be played this way. And we haven't even explored Rameau temperament. Or Kirnberger. 

 

Quote

 Going down, once the 2nd and 1st octaves are reached, the major problems are almost gone, so much that I'm surprised how good the bass truly is when only the timbre and the volume envelopes become the details to craft in the instruments.

Yeah. And the Pokey dist C bass is unique. No other PSG has this sound.

 

Edited October 9, 2021 by ivop
mixed up ebony and ivory :D

[VinsCool]

5 minutes ago, ivop said:

Yeah. And the Pokey dist C bass is unique. No other PSG has this sound.

I love the buzzy Distortion C basses!

The random timbres is the icing on the cake, in my opinion.

The lower range being filled with the grittier tones really fits nicely too, especially in the tuning scale itself.

It always bothered me to have half an octave repeated in the original tables, while the full range was there all this time, just using a different timbre.

I think it sounds really good when they're combined this way, especially.

[edit] and they also work really well in 15khz mode for a really fat bass too!

Edited October 9, 2021 by VinsCool

[emkay]

19 hours ago, Stephen said:

Just think what you could have accomplished if all you did was crap on threads and whine for 36 years though!

When do you stop doing this?

[emkay]

You can write what you want. 

Particular the "Diatonic" thingy isn't really satisfying, if there are tunes existing, that need to be played on POKEY

 

What should have the highest priority , is the possible correction using Pokey's registers to make it fitting. 

 

 

 

[ivop]

12 minutes ago, emkay said:

Particular the "Diatonic" thingy isn't really satisfying, if there are tunes existing, that need to be played on POKEY

Emphasize is mine. This proves you have really no idea what you are talking about. Vinscool's tuning is all about diatonic intervals.

 

Just for fun, could you explain the difference between frequencies, scales and tunings?

[+Stephen]

24 minutes ago, emkay said:

When do you stop doing this?

As soon as you stop poo-pooing every thread that gets started here with your negativity and put downs.