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emkay

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Just now, Stephen said:

As soon as you stop poo-pooing every thread that gets started here with your negativity and put downs.

So it's a self running issue from your side. 

I never do what you wrote, but you get it that way. 

Really, it would be better for all people, if you do that in front of a mirror, not in this forums. 

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21 minutes ago, ivop said:

 

Just for fun, could you explain the difference between frequencies, scales and tunings?

The frequency is what you hear for real.

But there are measures built a long time ago, when people weren't aware of frequencies. They learned to put tones together where the dependency has a fixed height of a tone, and put those to a scale.

They also learned to bring different notes together, to get a resulting note.

Tuning is a funny abbreviation, where in a Radio the tuning of the electrical circuit build a resonance to the received frequency, making it possible to get the resulting resonance listenable on a speaker.;)

Edited by emkay

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34 minutes ago, emkay said:

The frequency is what you hear for real.

Sure. But what is it? How does it relate to tones and notes? How do notes build a scale? And how comes tuning into this?

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But there are measures built a long time ago, when people weren't aware of frequencies. They learned to put tones together where the dependency has a fixed height of a tone, and put those to a scale.

How far do you want to go back in time? Pythagoras used diatonic intervals.

Quote

They also learned to bring different notes together, to get a resulting note.

You mean harmonies?

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Tuning is a funny abbreviation, where in a Radio the tuning of the electrical circuit build a resonance to the received frequency, making it possible to get the resulting resonance listenable on a speaker.;)

Tuning is not an abbreviation. Do you know the meaning of that word?

 

And radio tuning is a whole different thing. You tune to a carrier frequency that modulates a signal. Could be AM. Could be FM. But that kind of tuning, tuning to a radio station, has nothing to do with music.

Edited by ivop
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6 minutes ago, ivop said:

 

 

And radio tuning is a whole different thing. You tune to a carrier frequency that modulates a signal. Could be AM. Could be FM. But that kind of tuning, tuning to a radio station, has nothing to do with music.

Good joke ;)

You tune to the right base frequency to get the harmonics played ;)

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14 minutes ago, emkay said:

Good joke ;)

You tune to the right base frequency to get the harmonics played ;)

No, that's not how radio works. AM and FM have nothing to do with musical harmonics. Have you looked at the broadcast frequencies? Even your dog cannot hear that. AM sends out a varying volume at the same carrier frequency. With proper (analog) circuitry, you can extract the original audio signal and replay it through an amp and speaker(s). In layman's terms, FM uses a fixed volume but modulates the incoming audio signal in frequencies closely around the carrier frequency. That's all way beyond audible frequencies obviously. It has nothing to do with frequencies/notes/scales/temperaments in a musical sense.

 

Edited by ivop
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Maybe it would make more sense if he answers it in his native tongue? Maybe the terms are different and the subtlety was lost...

Edited by EnderDude
ironically, grammar lol

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7 hours ago, ivop said:

No, that's not how radio works. AM and FM have nothing to do with musical harmonics. Have you looked at the broadcast frequencies? Even your dog cannot hear that. AM sends out a varying volume at the same carrier frequency. With proper (analog) circuitry, you can extract the original audio signal and replay it through an amp and speaker(s). In layman's terms, FM uses a fixed volume but modulates the incoming audio signal in frequencies closely around the carrier frequency. That's all way beyond audible frequencies obviously. It has nothing to do with frequencies/notes/scales/temperaments in a musical sense.

 

Come on. I know how Radio transmission is working.

But it seems, you don't understand the basics. 

Analog transmission is the base frequency (in this case a very high frequency, you don't hear) . 

Using the high frequencies has 2 causes:

1. The higher the frequency , the faster it can go through the atmosphere.

(not to mention that low tones spread easily while higher tones need to be transmitted more and more precisely) 

2. the high frequency cannot be heard

 

Imagine a broadcaster to put a speaker on the broadcasting tower, trying to put the volume that loud, to reach people about 50km away. 

Not only that people near the (60 kW) speaker would die immediately ;) , the people 50kM away, people only might hear some late low tone humming.

Put the analog information to a broadcast frequency and to receive it with a TUNER , allows to have the whole thing fast and silent transmitted. 

The tuner "cuts" the transmission frequency out, and the circuitry in the tuner builds  resonating (and amplifying) electrical waves on that.

So the "music" never has been cutted out. 

Digital transmission excluded ;)

   

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You just said the same as I did, but in different words. Very high frequency instead of carrier frequency, to which you indeed tune your tuner. But AM has nothing to do with harmonics. It varies the amplitude, i.e. strength of the carrier. FM modulates the frequency. Hence the names.

 

And you avoided answering the main question. What is the relationship between frequency, notes and scales. Yes, frequency is what you hear, notes are what you hear, and the scales they play are what you hear. But how are they related? You have no idea.

 

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53 minutes ago, ivop said:

And you avoided answering the main question. What is the relationship between frequency, notes and scales. Yes, frequency is what you hear, notes are what you hear, and the scales they play are what you hear. But how are they related? You have no idea.

 

All I can say is that I don't have an idea about your question. It simply makes no sense after my explanation. 

But for me it is obvious that harmonics and resulting frequencies don't mean the same for you.  

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7 minutes ago, emkay said:

All I can say is that I don't have an idea about your question. It simply makes no sense after my explanation. 

But your explanation didn't answer the original question. You avoided answering by starting about radio tuning.

7 minutes ago, emkay said:

But for me it is obvious that harmonics and resulting frequencies don't mean the same for you.  

Oh, I know about harmonics, and how interference works, and how that can result in new audible waves.

 

So again, what is the relationship between frequencies, notes, scales and tuning? It's really pretty simple, if you understand the theory.

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1 hour ago, ivop said:

But your explanation didn't answer the original question. You avoided answering by starting about radio tuning.

Oh, I know about harmonics, and how interference works, and how that can result in new audible waves.

 

So again, what is the relationship between frequencies, notes, scales and tuning? It's really pretty simple, if you understand the theory.

I did answer your questions already. 

What do you want to read?

It's more funny what you were implementing here.

I did invent Hi End Speakers back in the 80s, and actually my experiments with POKEY tunes should show that I know things.   

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31 minutes ago, emkay said:

I did answer your questions already. 

No, you did not. You have no clue about how frequencies, notes, scales and tuning are related. Hence you sometimes release YouTube video where the bass is playing in a different key than the chords and melody. Or the chords are in a different key than the rest of the tune. There were some variations in wrongness.

 

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What do you want to read?

Perhaps proof that you do indeed understand fundamental music theory? Frequencies, notes, scales, tuning. I start to sound like a broken record. But if you don't know it, just say it! You could actually learn it, if you are open to that, like Vinscool did.

 

Quote

It's more funny what you were implementing here.

I did invent Hi End Speakers back in the 80s, and actually my experiments with POKEY tunes should show that I know things.   

Still you think AM broadcasting is based on harmonics, instead of modulating the amplitude (read: volume) of the carrier frequency. A single frequency of which its amplitude is varied. Harmonics are actually a thing you want to avoid in broadcasting, hence the frequencies on which one can broadcast are regulated in each country. To avoid interference of higher harmonics of lower frequencies.

 

 

Edit: could it be that you are mixing up resonance and harmonics? Obviously an AM radio tuner has a resonating circuit, and its varying amplitude is the audio signal that was broadcasted. Nothing to do with harmonics. You know that harmonics are always a higher frequency than the base frequency, right?

 

Edited by ivop
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12 minutes ago, ivop said:

No, you did not. You have no clue about how frequencies, notes, scales and tuning are related. Hence you sometimes release YouTube video where the bass is playing in a different key than the chords and melody. Or the chords are in a different key than the rest of the tune. There were some variations in wrongness.

 

You mix up apples with pears. 

There is no clue about musical taste, and why some misused frequency mixing people like or not. 

There is no common sense why people claim to like musical harmonics and then go to a heavy metal concert. 

 

12 minutes ago, ivop said:

Perhaps proof that you do indeed understand fundamental music theory? Frequencies, notes, scales, tuning. I start to sound like a broken record. But if you don't know it, just say it! You could actually learn it, if you are open to that, like Vinscool did.

 

You are talking about theories of music making. 

 

12 minutes ago, ivop said:

Still you think AM broadcasting is based on harmonics, instead of modulating the amplitude (read: volume) of the carrier frequency. A single frequency of which its amplitude is varied. Harmonics are actually a thing you want to avoid in broadcasting, hence the frequencies on which one can broadcast are regulated in each country. To avoid interference of higher harmonics of lower frequencies.

 

Old TV tuners were that bad in dividing the frequencies and built resulting interfering waves, so the broadcasters were limited to a 3 channel step, to have a clean signal on the TV set. 

 

12 minutes ago, ivop said:

 

Edit: could it be that you are mixing up resonance and harmonics?

 

Erm.. no. Why should I ?

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21 minutes ago, emkay said:

You mix up apples with pears. 

There is no clue about musical taste, and why some misused frequency mixing people like or not. 

See, you are missing the point. If you convert a MOD file, but the samples are not in the same key, the patterns are used to adjust for the key mismatch, hence the notes are not in the same key. If you blindly convert that and not adjust for the key mismatch, your song will just sound wrong. That has nothing to do with taste. It is just wrong.

 

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There is no common sense why people claim to like musical harmonics and then go to a heavy metal concert. 

Then you have never seen/heard a proper metal band. Yeah, Cannibal Corpse is no Mozart, but try Dream Theater. It might surprise you.

 

Quote

You are talking about theories of music making. 

Of course. That's what we are trying to do. Make some music :)

 

But notes, scales and tuning is very basic, and you really should get a grasp of that IMHO. Then, I'll bore you with the circle of fifths and chord building ;)

 

Quote

Old TV tuners were that bad in dividing the frequencies and built resulting interfering waves, so the broadcasters were limited to a 3 channel step, to have a clean signal on the TV set. 

True. Their band filters were not up to the task at the time.

Quote

Erm.. no. Why should I ?

Because you thought AM broadcasting was based on harmonics, which it is not.

Edited by ivop
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48 minutes ago, ivop said:

 

 

Of course. That's what we are trying to do. Make some music :)

 

 

And what I say is that the plain use of musical theories won't really work, if the frequencies weren't 100% correct. 

To get the real music, corrections have to be done to compensate the 8 bit resolution. 

You cannot handle that with just your diatonic scale.                                                                                                                                                                        

Edited by emkay

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Of course, you have frequencies, which is how many times the waveform makes a complete cycle every second (hz), the tuning of the notes themselves, and then the scale to which the notes belong to. For the tuning, of course we start off by saying A4=440 hz, which is what we need to make a relation between the tuning of the notes, and the frequency. Since a5 is simply double the frequency of A4, we can see that it is an exponential type of function with a base of two. Therefore, we can find the tuning of any note based on this easily with this formula:

f=440*(2^(s/12))

where f is the frequency of the note in hz, and s is the difference in semitones of the desired note from A4

This means that if you want to find the tuning of, say, C5, you would count how many semitones above or below it is from A4. In this instance, it would be 3

so this means the frequency of C5=440*(2^(3/12))=523.251131 hz

Now, try to apply this to the PoKEY. ;)

The PoKEY uses four 8-bit frequency dividers, which can be grouped into pairs to create two 16-bit frequency dividers. However, even with 16-bit dividers, the pitch accuracy of higher notes does not improve since 16-bit dividers simply give the ability to play much, much lower frequencies, but they will still divide the clock by an integer; no decimal business here!

For example, the highest frequency 64khz distortion A can have when AUDF is $00 is (63337.4 hz / 2) / (0+1), or 31668.7 hz (this is for PAL btw). This also means that when AUDF is at $FF, the frequency would be 123.706 hz (31668.7 hz / 256), which is very close to B2 at 123.47 hz.

Therefore, if you want to find the closest value for tuning for 64khz distortion A to any given note, we can write a formula which combines the two mentioned above:

(31668.7/(440*(2^(s/12)))) - 1 = x

where s is the number of semitones above or below A4, and x is the value you want AUDF to be in. Of course, you would then need to round it to the nearest integer for it to work.

Now, I believe for polycounter distortions, it's similar, and I feel like it has to do with how many bits long the LFSR is, and you would divide the master frequency by that as well, but I don't know that just yet. Might have ivop confirm that. ;)

Now applying this musically, the relation these notes have is crucial to any musical piece. If a song is using a C major scale which is an octatonic scale, stick to that C major scale. If another is using the Pentonic scale, stick to that scale. If you find that the PoKEY does not have the ability to play a certain note on the scale for a certain distortion, you can always try to use a different distortion which has more accuracy in the desired range of octaves (i.e. dist 2, C, & E @1.79 mhz), or you can transpose the whole piece. I have heard you do both to solve the problem, but focusing on the latter solution (transposing), you must be careful with that. Do not simply transpose that piece of the song that's troublesome. The consistency of the relation of the notes is single-handedly one of the most desirable aspects of the song you want to retain! Instead, if you are going to transpose that piece of the song, transpose the rest of the song accordingly to keep that consistency of the scale the song's using.

Hope this helps! :D

Edited by EnderDude
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The funny part with "tuning" in those old chips is that they put new harmonics on any combinations of frequencies. 

If you are familiar with POKEY, you sometimes get FULL IN TUNE music when everything is set false. 

It's this 5 or 7 semi tones shift. The directly created square waves act like a direct interfering without creating sweep variations.  

Seems, the mix of the wrong "generated" tones results in a real tone.

While in 15kHz it adds to something good, it can be a full mess in 64kHz.

Changes of resulting waves need a rather different type of frequency adjustment.  

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The "intro" of this tune isn't possible by just using the "diatonic rules"...

 

 

Edited by emkay

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21 hours ago, emkay said:

So it's a self running issue from your side. 

I never do what you wrote, but you get it that way. 

Really, it would be better for all people, if you do that in front of a mirror, not in this forums. 

Odd then that a few dozen other people also feel the same way.  Just keep telling yourself that you are not the problem.  Obviously, if a person has trouble with everyone they meet, it is everyone that has the issue, not the one person.

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2 minutes ago, Stephen said:

Odd then that a few dozen other people also feel the same way.  Just keep telling yourself that you are not the problem.  Obviously, if a person has trouble with everyone they meet, it is everyone that has the issue, not the one person.

There are too much negative persons in the Atari scene. That's the cause. 

I also don't have problems with everyone, It's always the same bunch of people...

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2 hours ago, emkay said:

The "intro" of this tune isn't possible by just using the "diatonic rules"...

Yet my tables were used there, and the frequencies displayed in the oscilloscope display contradict this statement.

The notes were separated by exactly 2 octaves, and had the filter layered on top of them to create this sound.
Am I correct? 😜 

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2 hours ago, emkay said:

The funny part with "tuning" in those old chips is that they put new harmonics on any combinations of frequencies. 

 

 

 

(Sorry, German only...)

Edited by Irgendwer

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6 hours ago, VinsCool said:

Yet my tables were used there, and the frequencies displayed in the oscilloscope display contradict this statement.

The notes were separated by exactly 2 octaves, and had the filter layered on top of them to create this sound.
Am I correct? 😜 

In German we say "Das ist die halbe Miete". 

THE 8 bit pitch correction is of course needed to have it playing correctly. 

 

1055.6 /261,7 = 4,034....

 

What to do, to have it at exactly "4" ?

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33 minutes ago, emkay said:

What to do, to have it at exactly "4" ?

Round it to the first decimal 👀

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Do you get the paradoxon in this tune?

 

 

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