The UAV Rev. D Video Upgrade Thread

[+DrVenkman]

Got a cable, all working. Are there any games people can suggest to me which would be good for setting the potentiometer with?

Find a color bar generator. Alternately, Pitfall is pretty good, as you can set the greens properly, or Joust, which lets you adjust red/orange.

[Faicuai]

 

However, using a CRT with composite cable, the intro screen is now reddish.

 

That's wrong. Intro is green and there are NO blown-out "specular" (bright) areas. You can distinguish color all the way through the brightest tones.

[Faicuai]

Got a cable, all working. Are there any games people can suggest to me which would be good for setting the potentiometer with?

 

The simplest, easiest and most accurate (if done quickly, that is, with NO other tools available, whatsoever, and assuming your display monitor is reasonably calibrated), is to fire up STAR RAIDERS, initiate mission on Novice level, and turn on SHIELDS by pressing "S".

 

Shields should come up GRAYISH-DARK-BLUE color (sort of a deep aquamarine). NOT green, NOT bluish-green, NOT bright, etc. Simply adjust your color resistor until you get shields color this way and pretty much ALL OTHER colors will fall into place, after this (have been working with color and tonal reproduction on these machines for a while already). In an untouched Atari, color-video circuitry require at least 2 hours of continuous operation PRIOR to calibration. There is significant drift on these machines (at least all the way to XL Rev. C).

 

Now, as for TONALITY (e.g. how bright is a "white", and how bright colors get reproduced on that area), such dimension requires working with the machine's signal levels (electronically), particularly on the luminance component. ALL COLORS, of the ENTIRE PALETTE, should be visible and distinguishable in the highest-brightness levels (there should NOT be any pure whites, unless color has been suppressed, that is, a gray-scale is being sent out).

 

You can use any of the attached programs to make sure everything is they way it should be. Atari_Color_CAL.zip

 

Cheers!

[system11]

Doesn't seem to change the colours at all - I'm talking about the pot on the UAV. I did find if it's too far clockwise that in acp.xex the stippled white area and the left border indicators were not drawing correctly and 'sparkling'.

[+mytek]

Doesn't seem to change the colours at all - I'm talking about the pot on the UAV. I did find if it's too far clockwise that in acp.xex the stippled white area and the left border indicators were not drawing correctly and 'sparkling'.

 

The pot on the UAV is for adjusting artifacting, and is not the pot you should be first adjusting. Instead you need to find the one on the Atari motherboard and use it, then you'll see big changes.

 

Also not sure what system you have, but if it's PAL not all colors will be the same as rendered by an NTSC system (as I think 'th_ff' already pointed out). So for instance shields in Star Raiders will be more towards a light green color instead of light blue (this is what I've seen and has been talked about here). Basic desktop will be cyan. However a game that looks the same on either system is Pole Position which is now my goto for color adjustment, and should look like this...

 

 

- Michael

[system11]

This is how I have it looking now, ignore the heavy whites in the photo, that's just camera exposure, other pic is from a capture card.

 

It was about right to begin with, this seems to be the best overall mix I can achieve.

[Atari Nut]

Got a cable, all working. Are there any games people can suggest to me which would be good for setting the potentiometer with?

 

Based on Atari 400/800 Field Service Manual, there is simple way to adjust the color pot on NTSC Atari computer. Have your Atari switched on to for at least 15 minutes to warm up.

 

SETCOLOR 2,1,8 REM CHANGES BACKGROUND COLOR TO 1, PRESS RETURN

SETCOLOR 4,15,8 REM CHANGES FRAME COLOR TO 15, PRESS RETURN

 

Then adjust Atari color pot to make background color and frame color match as close as possible.

[Atari Nut]

 

That's wrong. Intro is green and there are NO blown-out "specular" (bright) areas. You can distinguish color all the way through the brightest tones.

 

How do you know? I tend to believe the reddish intro color on a CRT is correct and the greenish color on an LCD is not.

[Faicuai]

 

How do you know? I tend to believe the reddish intro color on a CRT is correct and the greenish color on an LCD is not.

 

How? By looking at hundreds of snaps, intros and images on BOTH LCD and CRT (Sony Wega), as well as direct Analog-to-Digital conversion from the machine's output itself.

 

FYI, I use precision equipment for displaying Atari image on LCD (e.g. not exactly the cheapo LCD+Tuner+Speakers TV-setup that shows up regularly on these parts) The bottom-line is:

1. With contemporary NTSC signal color-decoding, there is NO RED, anywhere, on BallBlazer, Koronis Rift, etc., not on my [LCD+Video] Processor combo, not on my 32" Sony Wega CRT high-resolution TV, not on my Atari 800/Incognito, not on my 800 XLs/Ultimates. Nowhere.
2. Altirra DOES NOT show red intro-screen on Ballblazer. It also shows it Green, as it should.
3. If you see red screen on Ballblazer intro, it is 99% probable that your Star Raiders shields are coming out with the WRONG color, again, assuming you are using displays with most recent NTSC color-decoding circuitry / logic.

 

I sincerely recommend anyone messing / dealing with Atari's color output to pay close attention to detail, and test key / signature titles for accurate color reproduction.

 

Cheers!

[Faicuai]

This is how I have it looking now, ignore the heavy whites in the photo, that's just camera exposure, other pic is from a capture card.

 

It was about right to begin with, this seems to be the best overall mix I can achieve.

 

Forgot to mention one last (but important) step for final tuning / accuracy, which only comes with experience and hitting brick-walls (valid for NTSC):

 

1. Adjust left-most (darkest) color of BAR #A (hex) on above chart UNTIL:
   • You obtain as close as a DARK, GRAYISH blue tone as possible (not greenish, not light or deep pure blue), ***AND***
   • Color rows #1 (hex) and #F (hex) are STILL DIFFERENT (!)
2. Please, IGNORE Salt Diagnostic's Color Adjustment procedure, as it will render a machine with 240 colors only. I later confirmed that it DOES NOT WORK with today's NTSC signal decoding.

 

Here are some samples (please, forgive white-balance / bluish-tint of smart-phone camera & lack of gamma compensation. Click images for optimal clarity):

 

 

(TOP title-bar of Galactic Chart map ALSO shows same color as shields, so you can see clearly what type of blue you should be getting).

 

 

 

That would give you the extra last bit of juice and assurance on color reproduction (NTSC) assuming you have NO OTHER tools or means for more sophisticated work.

 

Cheers!

[+DrVenkman]

The Lucasfilm background on RESCUE is reddish on both my vintage Commodore monitors (1702 and 1802) and my 2003 Toshiba CRT, through both composite and S-video, on multiple A8 computers with UAV installations, both Rev C and Rev D. My colors are "right" for every other game and application I care to test.

 

For more discussion, see also Trebor's comments in this post and the thread following on the use of the UAV in the 7800. Starts off 7800-specific but later Trebor discusses his findings re color all across the A8/6502-based lineup. Well worth reading

 

tl;dr: CRTs and LCDs do not produce color the same way. Optimizing the color pot for one will skew the results on the other.

[Faicuai]

The Lucasfilm background on RESCUE is reddish on both my vintage Commodore monitors (1702 and 1802) and my 2003 Toshiba CRT, through both composite and S-video, on multiple A8 computers with UAV installations, both Rev C and Rev D. My colors are "right" for every other game and application I care to test.

 

For more discussion, see also Trebor's comments in this post and the thread following on the use of the UAV in the 7800. Starts off 7800-specific but later Trebor discusses his findings re color all across the A8/6502-based lineup. Well worth reading

 

tl;dr: CRTs and LCDs do not produce color the same way. Optimizing the color pot for one will skew the results on the other.

 

Could you post a sample (either direct A/D conversion of the Atari signal or photo-capture from screen) of your Star Raider's shield color reproduction, on both your LCDs and CRTs?

 

Star Raider's reference is important because the author of that title HIMSELF explained what that color should be.

[+DrVenkman]

 

Could you post a sample (either direct A/D conversion of the Atari signal or photo-capture from screen) of your Star Raider's shield color reproduction, on both your LCDs and CRTs?

 

Star Raider's reference is important because the author of that title HIMSELF explained what that color should be.

 

I could but it looks more or less like yours above, but more vibrant from the screen phosphors.

[Faicuai]

 

I could but it looks more or less like yours above, but more vibrant from the screen phosphors.

 

It would be wonderful to see LCD-vs-CRT color reproduction on your end, especially Star Raiders shields, Zaxxon, etc.

​Something like this:

 

 

As it can be CLEARLY seen, there are no major deviations on LCD vs. CRT (state of the art) NTSC color reproduction, and a high quality LCD (with video processor) will match or SURPASS that of a CRT (sorry, my fellow CRT die-hard-lovers).

Cheers!

[+DrVenkman]

I don't use LCDs for my vintage systems, I don't use "state-of-the-art" NTSC color reproduction (whatever that means for a televsision encoding system that was created in 1953), and I don't use video processors. I've got 30 - 40 year old consumer-grade hardware designed to be played with consumer-grade color and B&W television sets of the day, with just the tiniest nod to something better with the composite and chroma/luma output of the 800.

 

Feel free to post with all the ill-advised capitalizations, but this thread is about Bryan's UAV. If you don't use it, and have nothing to add regarding using it, why are you continuing to argue that everyone else's results are unsatisfactory?

[Faicuai]

I don't use LCDs for my vintage systems, I don't use "state-of-the-art" NTSC color reproduction (whatever that means for a televsision encoding system that was created in 1953), and I don't use video processors. I've got 30 - 40 year old consumer-grade hardware designed to be played with consumer-grade color and B&W television sets of the day, with just the tiniest nod to something better with the composite and chroma/luma output of the 800.

 

Feel free to post with all the ill-advised capitalizations, but this thread is about Bryan's UAV. If you don't use it, and have nothing to add regarding using it, why are you continuing to argue that everyone else's results are unsatisfactory?

 

You don't because you may not be aware that NTSC color decoding CHANGED along the way (well-advised capitalization). :-)

 

And I am actually here because I really like this upgrade ​(especially for my 800XLs, not so for my 800) but several color samples here are simply wrong / off. It does not matter who likes it or not (it is what it is).

 

In your case, you should consider operating both LCDs and CRTs (vis-a-vis, neck-to-neck) so you can enrich this discussion in both fronts.

 

Cheers!

[+DrVenkman]

Okay, look - I'm not gonna get into this any further than this, and my EE coursework was a long time ago (and intended for engineering majors NOT majoring in EE) but ...

 

Here's what I get with a Rev D UAV board in a Rev C NTSC 800XL, running into a vintage Commodore CRT (chroma/luma):

 

 

This image is intentionally over-exposed to show the reddish tint of the background.

 

Here's the same game running on a bone-stock, late-production 800, running into a 2003 Toshiba CRT TV (also chroma/luma):

 

 

This image is also intentionally over-exposed to show the color of the background. Looks pretty much identical to the UAV output. The color pot of this machine has never, to my knowledge, ever been adjusted, nor has GTIA ever been replaced which would necessitate it. All IC's and discrete internal components are original. For that matter, I still have that useless vestigial RF cable tail hanging out the back - I need to remove that next time I have this machine apart, which will likely be to install an Incognito 2 board whenever Lotharek starts selling them. I digress ...

 

Now here's the 800XL/UAV Rev D into a vintage Commodore CRT (chroma/luma), running Star Raiders, shields activated:

 

 

And now the stock 800 into the Toshiba CRT TV (chroma/luma), also running Star Raiders, shields activated:

 

 

I'm done tonight. Still tired and wrung out from #Eclipse2017, which was pretty spectacular in these parts.

 

[system11]

Should have mentioned, I'm a PAL user. Happy with how the upgrade looks, people watching my stream noticed the improvement.

[Faicuai]

Okay, look - I'm not gonna get into this any further than this, and my EE coursework was a long time ago (and intended for engineering majors NOT majoring in EE) but ...

 

Here's what I get with a Rev D UAV board in a Rev C NTSC 800XL, running into a vintage Commodore CRT (chroma/luma):

 

800XL_UAVD_Fract.jpg

 

This image is intentionally over-exposed to show the reddish tint of the background.

 

Here's the same game running on a bone-stock, late-production 800, running into a 2003 Toshiba CRT TV (also chroma/luma):

 

800_Stock_Fract.jpg

 

This image is also intentionally over-exposed to show the color of the background. Looks pretty much identical to the UAV output. The color pot of this machine has never, to my knowledge, ever been adjusted, nor has GTIA ever been replaced which would necessitate it. All IC's and discrete internal components are original. For that matter, I still have that useless vestigial RF cable tail hanging out the back - I need to remove that next time I have this machine apart, which will likely be to install an Incognito 2 board whenever Lotharek starts selling them. I digress ...

 

Now here's the 800XL/UAV Rev D into a vintage Commodore CRT (chroma/luma), running Star Raiders, shields activated:

 

800XL_UAVD_StarRaid.jpg

 

And now the stock 800 into the Toshiba CRT TV (chroma/luma), also running Star Raiders, shields activated:

 

800_Stock_StarRaid.jpg

 

I'm done tonight. Still tired and wrung out from #Eclipse2017, which was pretty spectacular in these parts.

 

 

THANKS! Great samples!

 

• It seems that NTSC color-decoding on your end (probably on the devices / CRT themselves) is quite different than my end.
• As far as I can tell, it seems Star Raiders shields appear INCORRECT on your samples, above).

 

On my end, I can factually confirm:

 

1. All of my units (800/800XLs) video circuitry is basically untouched, other than enabling s-Video output.
2. All of my units (800/800XLs) have been carefully calibrated and show Star Raiders shields properly (dark, grayish-BLUE, not ultramarine or bright blue). Very similar on my [LCD, CRT].
3. Video decoding from all these units and directly converted from analog-to-digital (and recorded) shows GREEN background for Koronis Rift, Ball Blazer, etc.
4. Video decoding from all these units and displayed on my Sony Wega CRT shows GREEN background for Koronis Rift, Ball Blazer, etc.
5. Video decoding from all these units and displayed on my [VP930b + DVDO iSCAN HD & iSCAN VP50-Pro] shows GREEN background for Koronis Rift, Ball Blazer, etc.
6. Altirra 2.90 (Latest Official Release) shows GREEN background for Koronis Rift, Ball Blazer, etc.
7. I have checked on Sony Wega 32" CRT, Sony Bravia KDL-52W3000 LCD/TV, and Viewsonic VP-930b LCD (monitor).

 

Therefore, I have not found any disagreement / divergence on color reproduction, with any of the methods / paths chosen, on my end. All [CRT, LCD and PC/Emulation] domains converge, in terms of reproduction. Even folks on this very same thread have confirmed my findings.

 

They key question then is how / why your end diverges.

 

Cheers!

[juansolo]

I'm having problems. I've a pair of rev 2 PAL 2600 Juniors that are having the same issue on both. Basically it's black screening and not booting (there's no sound, though I know it's not wired on in the one in the pics, it is in the other). I've tried the stock 2600 jumper setting, and the ones currently that were recommended to someone with a PAL Junior earlier in the thread. Both machines work fine if reverted. Tried both boards and both machines, both doing the same thing. I'm a bit stumped on this.

[Atari Nut]

 

Star Raider's reference is important because the author of that title HIMSELF explained what that color should be.

 

I would like to add that we now have confirmation from two Lucasfilm Games developers who worked on these games. I contacted Dave Levine and David Fox to inquire about this.

 

Mr. Levine stated in the intro, the lettering and the animation elements are gold against a red background.

 

Mr. Fox stated it was supposed to be a golden color with a brown background. If it was green, then the TV was out of adjustment.

 

Mr. Fox also supplied me with the following reference image. With the UAV in my 130XE, my colors are really close to this image on a CRT.

Edited August 28, 2017 by Atari Nut

[Faicuai]

 

I would like to add that we now have confirmation from two Lucasfilm Games developers who worked on these games. I contacted Dave Levine and David Fox to inquire about this.

 

Mr. Levine stated in the intro, the lettering and the animation elements are gold against a red background.

 

Mr. Fox stated it was supposed to be a golden color with a brown background. If it was green, then the TV was out of adjustment.

 

Mr. Fox also supplied me with the following reference image. With the UAV in my 130XE, my colors are really close to this image on a CRT.

 

This rendition does NOT seem possible on contemporary NTSC decoding.

 

Not even Altirra 2.90 on "True NTSC" mode renders any reds on those intros., either. Everything is green (as I am getting on high-end equipment as well).

 

And if you don't render Bluish/grayish (with a minor hint of green) on Star Raiders shields (per Star Raider's creator), then you are off there, too.

 

Another key example (and sure sign of color alignment) is POLE POSITION: the sky is NOT pure sky-blue. It is a rather soft, pastel blue with a pinch of green (very distinctive). Altirra 2.90 also nails it as my real HW sets. I have seen many wrong renditions around here.

 

Furthermore, I actually even checked color rendition of Atari's TIMEWISE (http://www.atarimania.com/utility-atari-400-800-xl-xe-timewise_12420.html), for which there is EXCELLENT printed / scanned evidence from all screens (as they were published back then) and compared to what I get on my end (Altirra and 800/800XLs) and it pretty much matches closely (good variety of colors used on that program, highly recommended for inspection). Atarimania has everything in there.

 

All of this seems to be further evidence that NTSC decoding (on viewing devices / displays) CHANGED along the way.

 

Cheers!

[juansolo]

I'm having problems. I've a pair of rev 2 PAL 2600 Juniors that are having the same issue on both. Basically it's black screening and not booting (there's no sound, though I know it's not wired on in the one in the pics, it is in the other). I've tried the stock 2600 jumper setting, and the ones currently that were recommended to someone with a PAL Junior earlier in the thread. Both machines work fine if reverted. Tried both boards and both machines, both doing the same thing. I'm a bit stumped on this.

 

 

These 2 vcs use different pins on the 4050, theres 6 buffers in it, we were not using the right pins for luma lines and sync. The pins are marked on the board, just needed to go through every one until we found somewhere to jumper them to the appropriate pin on the 4050 socket.

[+DrVenkman]

 

This rendition does NOT seem possible on contemporary NTSC decoding.

 

Not even Altirra 2.90 on "True NTSC" mode renders any reds on those intros., either. Everything is green (as I am getting on high-end equipment as well).

 

And if you don't render Bluish/grayish (with a minor hint of green) on Star Raiders shields (per Star Raider's creator), then you are off there, too.

 

Another key example (and sure sign of color alignment) is POLE POSITION: the sky is NOT pure sky-blue. It is a rather soft, pastel blue with a pinch of green (very distinctive). Altirra 2.90 also nails it as my real HW sets. I have seen many wrong renditions around here.

 

Furthermore, I actually even checked color rendition of Atari's TIMEWISE (http://www.atarimania.com/utility-atari-400-800-xl-xe-timewise_12420.html), for which there is EXCELLENT printed / scanned evidence from all screens (as they were published back then) and compared to what I get on my end (Altirra and 800/800XLs) and it pretty much matches closely (good variety of colors used on that program, highly recommended for inspection). Atarimania has everything in there.

 

All of this seems to be further evidence that NTSC decoding (on viewing devices / displays) CHANGED along the way.

 

Cheers!

You really don’t like admitting you’re just wrong about this on a CRT do you?

[Faicuai]

You really don’t like admitting you’re just wrong about this on a CRT do you?

My CRT displays GREEN, thank you.