VladR Posted December 27, 2018 Author Share Posted December 27, 2018 I spent about a week (or so) on my 6502 3D engine, as I'd very much like to submit some simple 3D game for the 10 Liners compo in the Extreme category (e.g. ASM is allowed, but still 10 lines limit (about ~220 Bytes of data, realistically), which amounts to about ~2.2 KB for whole game). It's a very different beast compared to the usual scenario of coming up with the fastest code. Here, I have only about ~2 KB available. Some of my fastest drawing routines are much longer than that, so to come up with something that is both fast and short, is indeed a brutal challenge. I refactored some routines 8 times till I got the combination of both size&speed that is usable. Here's potential scenarios: 1. Star Wars corridor - 887 Bytes for base engine (display lists, double buffering, clear screen, hor.line, vert. line, generic line, looping), leaving ~1,300 Bytes for the rest - 64,204 cycles -> ~22.2 fps for the corridor (without enemies) - the greatest advantage for this type of game is that the 8-bit clip-space perspective is directly suited for this type of game (it is a corridor, after all) 2. Rez corridor - 806 Bytes for base engine, leaving ~1,400 Bytes for the rest - Transforms generic quads (e.g. does not have to be axis-aligned) and draws 19 vertices, nicely interpolated across the quad surface - at 15 fps, I can transform 34 quads and render 652 vertices, so it's a nice and smooth point cloud - problem is that the 8-bit clip-space that I've spent so much effort to integrate with transforms and tables, looks too much like a narrow corridor - thus I can't directly put quads at screen edge (e.g. outside of main corridor), which sucks 3. Terrain - alternatively, the quad interpolation from Rez could be reused for some terrain game, as my 3D transform code is quite fast even at that size limit (loop+transform+clip : 140 cycles / vertex) - I would have to come up with a way how to adjust the perspective so it has a wide field of view, which at 16-bit precision is easy, but at 8 bits has not been done, afaik - technically, it's not hard to stretch it (I already got it), problem is that the stretching takes 300+ Bytes, so I don't like that... 4. StunRunner - as the code is generic, I plugged in the vertices from my jaguar's StunRunner track - e.g. hills/curves - the whole nine yards - the rendering is not a problem, but creating the 3D mesh at runtime takes way over 1 KB, leaving almost nothing for game - If I had 4 KB, StunRunner on A800 would be easy to accomplish, but at 2.2 KB looks damn hard - probably not impossible, but the risk is that I spend too much time on this I'm open to ideas which direction should I go or if you have any other idea for the vector game that would be a good candidate on A800. The single most optimal use of 6502 is horizontal lines - there's no better use of 6502 than drawing horizontal lines (e.g. smallest amount of cycles burnt per pixel) Do you also believe that Domark's Star Wars corridor (though at around 20 fps) is too lame to shoot for the 10-Liner compo ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VladR Posted December 27, 2018 Author Share Posted December 27, 2018 The advances I made during last 2 months in my macro expander (while working on the shaders and effects) brought a nice side effect of allowing me to think bigger in terms of features that are now within easy reach (and which most definitely weren't quick to implement before). In last 3 days I implemented the following RPG features: 1. Player's stats: - Level - Experience - HP - Laser Level - Damage - Armor 2. Enemy's stats: - Level - Experience - HP - Laser Level - Damage - Armor 3. Run-time configurable number of concurrent laser shots - you start with one - as you upgrade, you unlock more shots - each level has different speed - currently I have 4 sub-levels per each level, e.g.16 in total - I love Descent's Quad Lasers, need I say more - I think Descent's Fusion Laser (where you need to hold the button to charge the shot with more damage) would be awesome to have, even though this is just corridor-based 4. Procedural Placement of enemies - randomized distribution of Enemies parameters, recomputed after each level restart, so if the level is supposed to have Level 16 enemies, they'll be slightly different each time (and definitely not all identical) - the bounds for their parameters are configured in a simple text file, so no debugging and code changes needed - additional adjustment happens based on area reached & difficulty - this allows player trying to survive a level with much more difficult enemies, and if surviving, gaining more experience, hence unlocking better lasers and stuff (or dying in the process) - of course, like in some large-scale modern RPG, if you try to charge Enemy Level 37 while you're Level 3, probably not a best idea - it'd be boooooring if all the area levels were simply sorted by difficulty, so as in any good RPG, you'll have to figure it out yourself - just because the area is available to wander around doesn't mean it's a good idea to go wander there 5. Damage Equation - It is complex - I've basically copied the same system that I used in my X360 RPG game, so there's slight randomization of dmg, there are critical shots, there's accuracy, difficulty, many other coefficients, etc. - I am currently debating whether to automate advancement on critical chance/dmg or give the player option to do so, but on the other hand, I don't wanna go Diablo on this either... Now I'm not worried anymore how I'll fill up those 500 levels with varied enemies Question - which games have the most complex RPG stats on Jaguar ? Oh, and of course, this additional complexity will push back the release for 6-8 weeks (or more ), but this new RPG system will hugely increase replayability. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagChris Posted December 27, 2018 Share Posted December 27, 2018 Hope you had a Merry Christmas VladR. And everyone else also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Dragon Posted December 27, 2018 Share Posted December 27, 2018 @ValdR:Domark only published A8 Star Wars and even then were very, very reluctant to do so, given the dire state of the A8 market here in the UK at the time (niche would be generous), actual coding was done by Zeppelin Games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clint Thompson Posted December 27, 2018 Share Posted December 27, 2018 Is this in regards to the polygon tunnel shooter video I saw forever ago or something else entirely? Sounds like an entirely different game if you're talking about extensive RPG elements. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VladR Posted December 27, 2018 Author Share Posted December 27, 2018 @ValdR:Domark only published A8 Star Wars and even then were very, very reluctant to do so, given the dire state of the A8 market here in the UK at the time (niche would be generous), actual coding was done by Zeppelin Games.Do you have some back story on them? I suspect they gave developers two weeks or something similarly ridiculous, to make the game, I guess? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VladR Posted December 27, 2018 Author Share Posted December 27, 2018 Is this in regards to the polygon tunnel shooter video I saw forever ago or something else entirely? Sounds like an entirely different game if you're talking about extensive RPG elements.Yes, still the same core game, just enhanced to provide more complexity and replayability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Dragon Posted December 27, 2018 Share Posted December 27, 2018 Long since lost what i had on Domark. Your going back to the time i was trying to get fresh interviews for Pro Atari Magazine and both Simon Butler and Chris Shrigley had barely touched the A8, so they went into Classic Console Magazine, leaving only Jon Croudy and Christopher Murray. I think i might of approached the Star Wars A8 coder myself,i know Jet Boot Jack tried to get hold of the A8 coders on my behalf who handled The Living Daylights on A8, but heard nothing back. The only other A8 title Domark published was Trival Pursuit. I think the story of A8 Star Wars was simply by time it was finished and handed to Domark for duplicating etc, they appraised the UK A8 market and expected sales,even with the Star Wars name attached,were so low,the project was deemed commercially non viable. Someone obviously risked it,but i would love to know how many units it actually sold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Westphal Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 Best thing I read today was this, and I read a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
louisg Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 This is a neat topic! I browsed it, but didn't see a conversation yet about line-shifter road engines like both the original and 3do Road Rash I love those. I DID see a mention of Hover Race, which was really fun back in the late 90s! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+madman Posted January 20, 2019 Share Posted January 20, 2019 1. SAC Gamers Expo, Sacramento,CA: Dec 09,2018 : - I will have a playable version there, there will be a gameplay video before that 2. To avoid throwing gobs of cash/taxes to IRS (for non-US folks, it's the government taxes), I will not sell any cart in 2018 - once I get back from SAC Gamers Expo, I will resume work on the game, so that by January 1st I should have a good idea if it's ready to be launched or not Still waiting on the gameplay video that was to be released before Dec 09,2018. Also, it's past January 1st, do you have a good idea if it's ready to be launched or not? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gummy Bear Posted January 20, 2019 Share Posted January 20, 2019 Give the guy a break! It takes a lot of time to write crushingly condescending replies to good people, and correct folks who have actual, working knowledge of coding for the Jag, because reasons! AND code the greatest codey thing on the Jag, ever! 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VladR Posted January 20, 2019 Author Share Posted January 20, 2019 Still waiting on the gameplay video that was to be released before Dec 09,2018. Also, it's past January 1st, do you have a good idea if it's ready to be launched or not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VladR Posted January 20, 2019 Author Share Posted January 20, 2019 Give the guy a break! It takes a lot of time to write crushingly condescending replies to good people, and correct folks who have actual, working knowledge of coding for the Jag, because reasons! AND code the greatest codey thing on the Jag, ever! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LinkoVitch Posted January 20, 2019 Share Posted January 20, 2019 How ironic you choose a picture of the man who oversells his own worth and abilities constantly, talking to his imaginary 'friend' to represent yourself Vladr.Many a true word said in jest as they say.. combined with a picture says a 1000 words... But then, you are also a psychology professor now too IIRC? you did read that book after all. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skip Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 (edited) A phone video of the game running would take less time to film and upload than these captioned BG images would take to create. I am genuinely more interested in seeing a progress video than sniping at forum members who are asking (quite sincerely, as I read it anyway) the same thing. I know, all good things come to those who wait, but I am personally looking forward to seeing something soon. Edited January 21, 2019 by skip 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Stephen Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 Judging from posts in the 8-bit forum, he's spent the last month working on the most amazing numberwanging exercise ever, of texturing on the 6502. More walls of text and as usual, not so much as a screenshot, let alone a video. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sh3-rg Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 Love it. I come here maybe once every 5 or 6 months, get to read pages and pages of back-and-forth and some of the most ill-judged attempts at humour the internet has to offer. Get to ride the highs and lows of self-imposed deadlines and appearances coming and going and joy of all joys, get to do it all again in another half years time - BAM! Have to say, I totally called the main theme of this soap opera wrong this time... I was fully expecting a "d'oh! tax years run April to April!" revelation come the January posts, allowing for a further 3 months of solid string-dangling, I didn't see that "everyone is skint in january" plot twist, it totally blindsided me. M. Night Shyamalan stuff right there. I'll put a note on my calendar and see you all in August, ciao! Judging from posts in the 8-bit forum, he's spent the last month working on the most amazing numberwanging exercise ever, of texturing on the 6502. More walls of text and as usual, not so much as a screenshot, let alone a video. Well that's sure to pay the bills. 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neo_rg Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 Don't leave it that long sh3, I'm sure he's about to make an announcement. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LinkoVitch Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 Totally, you would be kicking yourself if you miss the limited run of carts. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+CyranoJ Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 Waiting for the BSG gif! So excite! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WAVE 1 GAMES Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 So let me get this straight, if you take too long to show a progress update on something You clowns get mad? If you release too much stuff too quickly.... You clowns get mad..... May we find that Goldilocks zone to make everyone happy. His project. His time. He will update you when he has an update to show. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pacman000 Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 I suppose it's the bragging that makes everyone mad. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WAVE 1 GAMES Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 Ok so here is the thing. Vladr you shouldn't be bragging and bosting without ACTUALLY showing working stuff. The bragging isnt necessary. In the end it just creates more drama for you. You know the buzzards are gonna swarm your ass, why feed them? I know life gets in the way of this shit it is just a hobby afterall. On the other hand if this were my project at this point I wouldn't show a damn thing either. What would be the point? Whatever he shows now will only be met with remarks like "after all this time, thats it?" Where is the motivation to keep going? You have all seen his code running on MY JAGUAR so its not like he is faking it. Sure he is moving slow but nobody knows what he may or may not have going on in his personal life that may interfere with this. He doesn't owe anyone anything. I have offered to help with this project but Vladr prefers to do it alone. That is HIS decision because its his game. Whatever it may turn out to be. So in short Vladr, don't make promises or brag and bost And everyone else leave the man alone. He will update us when he has something to show. He isn't under a contract to get this thing done. Perhaps him doing coding on something else is helping him in some way and will enhance this project in the long run. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gummy Bear Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 I have offered to help with this project And he didn't go for it?! That's weird... 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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