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Source for a Lot of Full Intellivision Solutions?


First Spear

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What is a reasonable, repeatable way to get quality Intellivision hardware+games "to the masses", so some games can be legally played out in the world? I am trying to think through distributable hardware/software solutions that don't violate copyrights and etc.

 

For example, there is a hospital nearby that will accept an Intellivision console. However, they can't have a pile of cartridges laying around (they may get lost/smashed), and getting a used console from eBay can be a hit-or-miss quality proposition, and eBay availability changes means that if another hospital will take one it may be a while before another console that is "just right" can be bought.

 

 

I think that means getting n-Intellivision Flashback units, having them Ultimate Flashback-ized, buying the best un/common cartridge games that would appeal to the masses, and then putting their ROMs on the unit. That might be kind of pricey but it would work, because I could drop that self-contained unit anywhere (giving them the original carts to stay legal, keeping them on the shelf), and there would be little chance of console failure because the hardware is new, and worn controllers could be replaced.

 

Does that make sense? Are there alternatives? Cheaper is better, but then again a real viable "solution" is better than something inconsistent or hacky that isn't repeatable.

 

Thanks for thinking on this, let's discuss.

 

 

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I think the Hospital will reject anything that violates the law, and so they should.

 

The Flashback units are not user-serviceable, so any modifications are unauthorized. Moreover, Intellivision Production reserves the right to distribute ROMs exclusively, so even though you buy the cartridges, there is no license to use the ROMs outside of them.

 

My suggestion would be to communicate your intentions with Intellivsion Productions, Inc. and negotiate a way to serve a charitable organization with their properties. In such a case, you may act as a facilitator of an engagement between Intellivision Productions and the charity.

 

However, going by what everyone says around here, they may not be interested, or even respond at all. That said, it does not hurt in the least to ask and reach out. Just make sure you are offering a legitimate proposal that they can easily accept.

 

Alternatively, just donate a bunch of Flashback units. I'm sure they will appreciate it.

 

dZ.

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I think the Hospital will reject anything that violates the law, and so they should.

 

The Flashback units are not user-serviceable, so any modifications are unauthorized. Moreover, Intellivision Production reserves the right to distribute ROMs exclusively, so even though you buy the cartridges, there is no license to use the ROMs outside of them.

 

My suggestion would be to communicate your intentions with Intellivsion Productions, Inc. and negotiate a way to serve a charitable organization with their properties. In such a case, you may act as a facilitator of an engagement between Intellivision Productions and the charity.

 

However, going by what everyone says around here, they may not be interested, or even respond at all. That said, it does not hurt in the least to ask and reach out. Just make sure you are offering a legitimate proposal that they can easily accept.

 

Alternatively, just donate a bunch of Flashback units. I'm sure they will appreciate it.

 

dZ.

Dz-jay is correct that using the ROM image outside of the cartridge is copying (for personal use). That is however explicitly legal in some countries. In the US there are other things to consider for legality of say using emulation when owning the cartridge. There is no statement from Mattel/Activision where like some software that shipped on CD, a backup copy permitted only to be used as a backup. Maybe its considered circumvention of copy protection. The ROM files on an Intellivision Lives CD are not copy protected, which implies they are okay to use this way. It is currently not possible to purchase any Intellivision/Flashback and games licensed through Intellivision Productions except through the second hand market. Some games were only ever available on cartridge for play on antiquated equipment. And US law says something about "the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work" when considering fair use. As usual its upto a judge.

 

Other suggestions:

I think today you can buy and play Intellivision games online with some modern consoles. Is that right?

 

There are some nice Intellivision homebrews you can freely get in rom file format and use with a Pi/emulator. I dont think the hospital cares if its in a flashback case.

 

Intellivision Flashbacks, if you can get them, makes sense.

 

Edit: its not illegal to make unauthorised modifications to a flashback. Might violate warranty but you're free to do it.

Edited by mr_me
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Dz-jay is correct that using the ROM image outside of the cartridge is copying (for personal use). That is however explicitly legal in some countries. In the US there are other things to consider for legality of say using emulation when owning the cartridge. There is no statement from Mattel/Activision where like some software that shipped on CD, a backup copy permitted only to be used as a backup. Maybe its considered circumvention of copy protection. The ROM files on an Intellivision Lives CD are not copy protected, which implies they are okay to use this way. It is currently not possible to purchase any Intellivision/Flashback and games licensed through Intellivision Productions except through the second hand market. Some games were only ever available on cartridge for play on antiquated equipment. And US law says something about "the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work" when considering fair use. As usual its upto a judge.

 

Other suggestions:

I think today you can buy and play Intellivision games online with some modern consoles. Is that right?

 

There are some nice Intellivision homebrews you can freely get in rom file format and use with a Pi/emulator. I dont think the hospital cares if its in a flashback case.

 

Intellivision Flashbacks, if you can get them, makes sense.

 

Edit: its not illegal to make unauthorised modifications to a flashback. Might violate warranty but you're free to do it.

 

I think you are missing the point. It's not that it is illegal to make modifications to a flashback unit; it's that it is in violation of the rights of distribution of the owner to re-distribute a modified version. Intellivision Productions own the trademark and the copyrights of the unit hardware and software.

 

They granted a license to AtGames for distribution, which I suspect is exclusive. Therefore, you can't just take the casing, change the innards, and redistribute it, not legitimately.

 

Also, it does not matter whether there's copy protection on the Intellivision Lives disc or not. What matters is the notices of copyright ownership and the lack of express written permission from them to allow you to use the ROMs in a manner inconsistent with their software distribution, or to re-distribute them freely.

 

Let us be clear, what is been suggested here is not "personal use," but public re-distribution. That it is to a charity or a hospital makes no difference, just ask their legal department.

 

dZ.

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I will just add that everyone here should consider that individuals being cavalier, naive, or indifferent about these matters is precisely why Keith Robinson is loath to engage the community in general.

 

He has stated this many times, and concludes that it is just easier to ignore everyone than to have to figure out the legal marshes of a few.

 

dZ.

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If I modify an Intellivision Flashback and put Christmas Carol and minigrom and miniexec on it, and then sell that device to someone, what law have I broken? If I buy a Honda Civic, upgrade the suspension, make it louder, give it a stupid paint job and sell it, does Honda care (other than warranty).

 

With CD-rom software like Intellivision Lives for PC/Mac it was expected to copy that software to the hard drive. I don't know if Intellivision Lives gave permission to do that or not but they did not say you couldn't nor would they want to prevent someone from doing that. Once it's on your hard drive you are free to use any emulator you want with it.

 

You are right about copy protection not mattering. Because in some circumstances you can legally break copy protection when it is within the boundaries of fair use. Not saying that personal copying of software for use on a different system is fair use, that would be upto a judge.

 

If the hospital owns an Intellivision Lives CD, Flashback, or console and cartridges, using an emulator with those same games is not re-distribution. Of course if you just provide a Pi/emulator with the Intellivision library in file format, that is illegal redistribution.

 

Lawyers opinions are often wrong, cases often go to trial because one lawyer is wrong. Judges and legislatures make the law not lawyers and even judges sometimes disagree.

 

Intellivision Productions should definitely have an issue with anyone selling their rom images, hacked or unmodified, on cartridge or in electronic file format, even if the numbers are small. Unfortunately, everyone knows that financially it would make no sense for Intellivision Productions to ultimately take action, And then there is the file sharing sites, which might or might not be possible to stop but would be alot of work and money. But that is not what I was talking about at all, I'm just talking about using ROMs you already own in a different way.

 

Maybe some people think its okay to distribute the old Intellivision games. It is right to point out its not okay and to show some respect to Keith Robinson and Intellivision Productions. Keith spent alot of his hard earned money acquiring these properties.

Edited by mr_me
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US Copyright law is clear in that rights are reserved by the owner unless expressly stated otherwise. Therefore it matters not if they didn't mention you couldn't share the ROMs in the CD: by law, if they didn't tell you you can, then you have to assume you cannot.

 

Lastly, what I want to point out, notwithstanding all your talk about lawyers and judges and legal decisions, the risk here is not necessarily legal. I don't expect Keith Robinson to go after anybody selling ROMs or hacked Flashbacks. The risk is in disrespecting the wishes and expectations of Intellivision Productions, forcing them to alienate the community even more and assuming that we're just all a bunch of crooks.

 

A lot of people dismiss it when Mr. Robinson's ignores business or partnership proposals from the community as "greed" or money-related. Although that could be true, he has stated that it is mostly because of these sorts of conversations and actions, where people just assume that whatever they can do with other's intellectual property for their own personal use, is just as acceptable to do publicly or for profit. I see no reason to doubt his stated motivations, when he has spent a lot of effort, time and money in reaching out to other communities outside AA.

 

dZ.

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I'm not suggesting sharing the rom files on the CD. Only suggesting using them from your hard disk or flash memory rather than directly from the CD (or cartridge). Intellivision Productions even recommends using the Intellicart on their web site. However even if they didn't say that, it is not correct to say "you have to assume you cannot". Yes copyright law says you cannot make copies without permission, even making one backup copy is not mentioned in the law but people assume you can do it. I would be very surprised if in a very hypothetical case that a judge would rule against someone for using some digital work that they legally own in an unintended way for personal use only.

 

Keith has said is that it is not possible for him to do business with anyone that has any history of intellectual property issues. He would be putting himself at risk. So that eliminates a few people here. Also I think it comes down to dollars; just business not greed. If Intellivision Productions is going to partner with someone, they would be looking for bigger dollars from the casual market. Selling a few hundred cartridges is not going to interest them, especially if it involves any investment on their part. But if someone here has a good idea that will make money, I'm sure they will listen.

Edited by mr_me
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I'm not suggesting sharing the rom files on the CD. Only suggesting using them from your hard disk or flash memory rather than directly from the CD (or cartridge).

 

I know you are. You always seem to argue this point when the thread is something to do with commercial or public distribution. It just muddles the conversation and does not really help. Why not stay on topic?

 

 

 

Keith has said is that it is not possible for him to do business with anyone that has any history of intellectual property issues. He would be putting himself at risk. So that eliminates a few people here. Also I think it comes down to dollars; just business not greed. If Intellivision Productions is going to partner with someone, they would be looking for bigger dollars from the casual market. Selling a few hundred cartridges is not going to interest them, especially if it involves any investment on their part. But if someone here has a good idea that will make money, I'm sure they will listen.

 

And my point is that due to those "few people here," he shuts himself down from the community completely to avoid any association. Even if "someone here has a good idea that will make money," he may not listen at all simply because he'll figure "it's probably one of those home-brewers with no regards for property, can't get involved." That's the actual risk.

 

-dZ.

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Anyway, back on topic, I would strongly urge you to contact Intellivision Productions, Inc. directly for involvement or just get the hospital a few Flashback units. They are useful, functional, small, easy to use, (cheap), and low-maintenance. :)

 

If you ever have any hopes of establishing a business or professional relationship with Intellivision Productions (and some of us do), I recommend avoiding at all costs anything that could be interpreted as unauthorized use, such as ROM distribution without cartridges or using their properties in a different way than originally intended. Indeed, anything that could rub them the wrong way.

 

-dZ.

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What is a reasonable, repeatable way to get quality Intellivision hardware+games "to the masses", so some games can be legally played out in the world?

Its an interesting proposal to try out, but based on my experiences from shows in the UK and USA, the reaction from most people will vary from "meh!" to "WTF!". Alas, we live in a niche of a niche hobby so trying to garner interest outside that niche is going to be a major uphill struggle. People with no interest in retro gaming (99.99% of the "masses") will not recognise the Intellilvision or even acknowledge that Mattel did anything other than Barbie. At best the Intellivision is a curio to some, but people expect much, much more from a modern games console than the humble Inty can offer.

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Its an interesting proposal to try out, but based on my experiences from shows in the UK and USA, the reaction from most people will vary from "meh!" to "WTF!". Alas, we live in a niche of a niche hobby so trying to garner interest outside that niche is going to be a major uphill struggle. People with no interest in retro gaming (99.99% of the "masses") will not recognise the Intellilvision or even acknowledge that Mattel did anything other than Barbie. At best the Intellivision is a curio to some, but people expect much, much more from a modern games console than the humble Inty can offer.

 

Oh so true. My experience is similar, except that I would add that once kids get over the anachronistic shock ("what the heck is that thing? what's a cartridge? Where's the d-pad? Why do you have a phone on your console? OMG! what's with all the blockies?") and actually play a game, they find it a lot of fun and enjoy it.

 

That's why I recommend giving a Flashback to the hospital because it allows kids to get to that "fun-intive" point with very little hassle and with very little regard for the original obsolete technology (other than the wood grain and the big pixels, of course). Plus, it includes some of the most fun games in the catalogue.

 

That said, I agree with GroovyBee, most people don't care about the Intellivision. So far, since i joined the community almost 10 years ago, there has been exactly one person I've met in real life, at work or in a social setting, who even knew about the Intellivision, and he was from Europe. Most of the time people tell me, "old video games, uh? like for Atari?"; I roll my eyes and say, "yes, precisely." :roll:

 

-dZ.

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Its an interesting proposal to try out, but based on my experiences from shows in the UK and USA, the reaction from most people will vary from "meh!" to "WTF!". Alas, we live in a niche of a niche hobby so trying to garner interest outside that niche is going to be a major uphill struggle. People with no interest in retro gaming (99.99% of the "masses") will not recognise the Intellilvision or even acknowledge that Mattel did anything other than Barbie. At best the Intellivision is a curio to some, but people expect much, much more from a modern games console than the humble Inty can offer.

Very true, but there are the odd few that do want it and need a solution other than get an emulator and find some rom files. And nothing available except on the secondary market.

 

-------------------

Keith is a regular on the Intellivisionairies. We asked for controllers, he made them available at a very low price. Even has adapters available (credit Nurmix) which will only be used by the few people trying to make 35 year old hardware work. We asked for overlays, he made them available at a low price. He has shared every bit of information he has. He's made every rom he possibly can available in different ways, some with rom files easily accessible. His website, although old, is one of if not the best Intellivision website there is; and really only appreciated by the people here. His communications may not be the best but I dont know if there is any specific reason for it.

 

----------------------

Now if someone is looking for the most economical way to get a bunch of licensed Intellivision roms, there is the Intellivision Lives Playstaion 2 disc (only available on the secondary market). They are all in one file but they are accessible. The exec and grom are in a different file and to be honest I havent tried to find those. Dont know if the producers or Intellivision Productions cares if it is not being used as intended, you'd have to ask them. The PC/Mac CDs are very hard to find. And like Dz-jay suggested public/commercial redistribution of this stuff may not be a good idea, even though the numbers are very small.

 

edit: Another thought on providing an out of the box Intellivision playing solution. If you have a sound idea you want to try, run it by Intellivision Productions first. If they don't object then they didn't object. It's not permission but you don't necessarily need permission.

Edited by mr_me
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That's why I recommend giving a Flashback to the hospital because it allows kids to get to that "fun-intive" point with very little hassle and with very little regard for the original obsolete technology (other than the wood grain and the big pixels, of course). Plus, it includes some of the most fun games in the catalogue.

In my experience, unless it looks like a PSX controller the public has a problem with it. At the UK retro shows some people don't even know how to hold a standard CX40 style 2600 joystick correctly e.g. with the fire button and cable pointing away from you. When I've demoed games on the Inty, most kids pick up the controller and hold it in the horizontal position like its a NES d-pad, adults and kids manage to start the games by pressing one of the buttons (mostly accidentally) and then don't realise the disk is the direction controller. Many don't realise there are side buttons and several people also tried to control the game using the number pad too. Even with standees and joystick orientation sheets on the stand, they are typically ignored and people just "dive in".

 

Unfortunately, unless it looks like a NES or a PSX controller then any systems you have out there will just gather dust in the corner after a while. A familiar looking controller is what people expect from a console these days. You also run into the issue of can it survive rough/unsupervised handling and being cleaned with disinfectant if used in hospitals. Unless it comes with corporate "back up" e.g. associated maintenance contracts, tech support line, servicing and so on, many public facing institutions won't take on your "entertainment" system at all.

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In my experience, unless it looks like a PSX controller the public has a problem with it. At the UK retro shows some people don't even know how to hold a standard CX40 style 2600 joystick correctly e.g. with the fire button and cable pointing away from you. When I've demoed games on the Inty, most kids pick up the controller and hold it in the horizontal position like its a NES d-pad, adults and kids manage to start the games by pressing one of the buttons (mostly accidentally) and then don't realise the disk is the direction controller. Many don't realise there are side buttons and several people also tried to control the game using the number pad too. Even with standees and joystick orientation sheets on the stand, they are typically ignored and people just "dive in".

True, right handed controllers like the Atari 2600 have pretty much disappeared in the 1980s. [and people always have issues with something different, even if its new and better]. At least the Intellivision controllers can be used left handed. Another problem is most Intellivision games and the best Intellivision games are not pick-up and play or require two players. People try to sell these games for kids and the casual market but they were never suited for it. So people end up playing Astrosmash or Sharp Shot.

Edited by mr_me
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My experience is different, and I stress the point that I'm talking about children. Once they get past the weird look of the device and the primitive look of the game, they can easily get immersed in a fun game and enjoy it.

 

I assumed that when First Spear mentioned "hospital," he meant "Children Hospital," because like you, I wouldn't expect adults to appreciate retro video games unless they have an emotional attachment to them already.

 

Your mileage may vary.

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...

If you ever have any hopes of establishing a business or professional relationship with Intellivision Productions (and some of us do), I recommend avoiding at all costs anything that could be interpreted as unauthorized use, such as ROM distribution without cartridges or using their properties in a different way than originally intended. Indeed, anything that could rub them the wrong way.

 

-dZ.

Intellivision Productions made a deal with PsychoStormtrooper. Correct me if I'm wrong, but PsychStormtrooper sold overlays (likely not for profit) that had other people's graphics copied without permission. Some graphics were personally designed by Keith.

 

So everyone has a chance.

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  • 2 weeks later...

It seems that Intellivision Productions has let other people do things with their properties. It's not the same as having permission. According to this, part of the agreement was that he couldn't produce any more. http://dryfter.blogspot.ca/2010/08/you-have-to-be-psycho-to-make.html?m=1

Many of the properties involved don't belong to Intellivision Productions anyway.

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It seems that Intellivision Productions has let other people do things with their properties. It's not the same as having permission. According to this, part of the agreement was that he couldn't produce any more. http://dryfter.blogspot.ca/2010/08/you-have-to-be-psycho-to-make.html?m=1

Many of the properties involved don't belong to Intellivision Productions anyway.

 

Very interesting article. Got me to thinking I had these somewhere. I dug them out. The Series 1 are opened but never used and the Series 2 and 3 are not opened.

 

Not getting into the legal talk going on, just thought a pic of the items talked about in the article posted by mr_me would be fun.

 

post-36757-0-12336700-1485814993_thumb.jpgpost-36757-0-73073100-1485814994_thumb.jpgpost-36757-0-31018800-1485814996_thumb.jpgpost-36757-0-73373100-1485814997_thumb.jpg

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