DurradonXylles Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 I do find it funny how they think their videos of a single box playing some games totally exonerates them. If anybody on this forum had eight months and over half a million dollars, they could make a box that does what they've shown. Even Mike Kennedy (with a couple of days and maybe $50 worth of parts) was able to fool people with his SNES-in-a-Jag for a little while. He was only caught because he couldn't resist gloating by posting videos that accidentally showed the back of the box. Even if you had no technical skills, you could figure out how to make such a box they've shown from watching Youtube videos. Playing NeoGeo CDs? I can do that with an 17 year-old OG Xbox that anybody can buy for $30 at a thrift store. Anybody can install Mednafen on an Intel PC and play Saturn games. Making a PC interface for cartridges? Tons of videos doing that for fun or as a learning exercise (or disproving faked Atari 2600 records) with RPi kits. Check out Element14 and Ben Heck videos. Now if you had $500,000 and eight months (at least), could you have a (slightly) custom PC motherboard and enclosure made that you could have a production run of a few thousand? Possibly, although given that this company of ever-shifting employees has never produced anything remotely equivalent, it's much less likely. GPD does this sort of thing with relative success, but Kickstarter is littered with failures similar to just the hardware of what Playmaji is promising. The fact they are opening up for another round of pre-orders before shipping actual hardware makes me think they simply don't have the money to actually manufacture the hardware. Now, given $500,000 and eight months and the tiny group at Playmaji (with seemingly more ex-engineers and marketing people than employed engineers) capable of producing 10+ (or 30 in Polymega math) LEGAL emulators on their own? If they had said they were licensing all their emulators, I would say they were being more realistic and possibly had a chance at success. They licensed the Saturn emulator, but do you think without resorting to using open-source emulators they can write 10+ systems including some which require a clone HLE BIOS? Pretty much impossible (unless right next to the "Core Store" there is an "HLE BIOS Store" on that same street with the old Chinese shop that won't sell you Gizmo because "Mogwais require great responsibility"). So maybe they can ship their box with just Saturn emulation, but the Playstation and PC Engine will be stuck in permanent "coming soon" mode. They might be softening their customers up for that reality with their admission that PSX emulation is only at "90%" right now. The emulation for the Playstation, Saturn, and PC Engine will definitely get scrutinized by the lawyers of the respective companies so they can't risk going the open-source route and using a real BIOS. As for the cartridge systems, it wouldn't surprise me if they tried to release with open-source emulators they didn't properly license (like the Retron 5 allegedly did). It's one thing to show a one-off prototype, it's quite another to mass-produce and ship a finished, legal product. See the Vega+ for how that usually goes even when the makers eventually do ship *something*. Preach that gospel, dear brother! Preach it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derFunkenstein Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 (edited) Is the Polymega Composite filter screenshot a fake? Rene of db Electronics fame does. https://db-electronics.ca/2019/03/26/fake-polymega-composite-filter-pictures/ Edited March 26, 2019 by derFunkenstein 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
godslabrat Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 Is the Polymega Composite filter screenshot a fake? Rene of db Electronics fame does. https://db-electronics.ca/2019/03/26/fake-polymega-composite-filter-pictures/ Whoa. Hey, why is there a bunch of electrical tape on the back of that Jaguar shell? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DurradonXylles Posted March 27, 2019 Share Posted March 27, 2019 (edited) Is the Polymega Composite filter screenshot a fake? Rene of db Electronics fame does. https://db-electronics.ca/2019/03/26/fake-polymega-composite-filter-pictures/Wow... I sincerely hope Playmaji is not this damn lazy. Almost every emulator on Earth, including the ones they had to license, come with CRT and RGB monitor filters. Bringing Analogue back into the fold, their clone consoles come with an entire suite of the filters you'd typically find on emulators of the same consoles. If it's proven that they faked something this trivial and easy to implement in an emulation console, this would once again bring everything they've claimed into question. I mean-- The back of that console looks a lot like a SNES Jr. Edited March 27, 2019 by DurradonXylles 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
godslabrat Posted March 27, 2019 Share Posted March 27, 2019 I'm not going to jump to conclusions, but there does seem to be a pattern of them screwing up the really easy stuff. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenixdownita Posted March 27, 2019 Share Posted March 27, 2019 If only they shipped what they seem to have and let people speak with their wallet ... is that too hard? 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derFunkenstein Posted March 27, 2019 Share Posted March 27, 2019 (edited) Well they posted a direct feed of their composite filter, but some folks are still not convinced. I haven't watched it, just looking at stills cherry-picked by Dan Kunz, the guy behind the hardware for UltraHDMI and DCHDMI (among various other projects). Seems like he should know what he's talking about: https://twitter.com/citrus3000psi/status/1110898885428420615 FWIW the original screenshot looked like something out of MAME to me. Totally reasonable to be a filter, although one they lifted from someone else. The one on the right looks terrible and if that's their composite filter, I wouldn't recommend it. Edited March 27, 2019 by derFunkenstein 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
godslabrat Posted March 27, 2019 Share Posted March 27, 2019 If they're honest, I almost want to feel sorry for them having to defend themselves... but come on, they've spent two years being snarky and hiding crucial info until the last possible second (fpga nixing, release delay) that the public has every right to be skeptical and Playmaji can't object to healthy skepticism now. When the first Analoge NT was released, I was skeptical as heck. Then Analoge delivered, and it did more and cost less, and every project released since has been amazingly transparent. Meanwhile, Playmaji still thinks the "Mike Kennedy" routine is the way to build excitement. I don't get it. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dj_convoy Posted March 27, 2019 Share Posted March 27, 2019 They can shut people up by showing a real, soup to nuts video with their hardware opened up, showing them playing games and using the filters and what not in real time. Any skepticism is on them at this point. If they only release screenshots and 50 second long videos, that's the stuff that will get scrutinized. Since they've shown fake stuff before, obviously they're going to get the microscope treatment. Playmaji can turn this around, if they wanted to. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RetrogamerX Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 Virtua Racing Shown for 32X and Saturn https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2nRPSxGDV0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DurradonXylles Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 Virtua Racing Shown for 32X and Saturn https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2nRPSxGDV0 Skimmed the video the footage, everything looks fine so far, still skeptical as all get out that the Saturn version is running with HLE BIOS but that's all I can really say about the video itself so far. got this comment response from Polymega/Playmaji when someone straight up told them to stop showing line-in footage of licensed emulators and start showing more videos of the hardware itself playing: Actually no one has ever seen this MD / Gen / 32x emulator before (at least not in this form) Note the audio quality! Currently the worlds only 64 bit version of Kega Fusion (note: we don't own the name, just the code). Ported / upgraded / tuned for the Polymega by the master himself. Sometimes things like this won't happen unless authors have a good reason to, like a generous licensing deal - so let's celebrate emulator authors finally getting something out of their hard work that we have all enjoyed gratis for so long! So, yeah, the pre-Saturn Genesis emulation is using an updated version of Steve Snake's Kega Fusion emulator, done by Steve himself, as said straight from Polymega's mouths. Here's a screencap of the conversation for posterity. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derFunkenstein Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 The last part of the conversation amuses me since Mednafen's author was distancing herself publicly. Apparently they learned nothing because they publicized Kega Fusion and then apparently asked Steve Snake if it was OK to namedrop. They also implied they're paying a lot for emulators. Makes you wonder if there's any money left to produce hardware. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DurradonXylles Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 (edited) The last part of the conversation amuses me since Mednafen's author was distancing herself publicly. Apparently they learned nothing because they publicized Kega Fusion and then apparently asked Steve Snake if it was OK to namedrop. They also implied they're paying a lot for emulators. Makes you wonder if there's any money left to produce hardware. They extended their first preorder period by a month, barely got past their initial goal when it ended and reached only halfway to their first stretch goal, and are reopening preorders again in May before they release the console, which has since been reported by them to either be summer or Q4 of this year (they keep changing that release window when asked). They have almost certainly burned through their preorder money by this point, and are well into using whatever angel investor cash they got between prototyping their new x86 unit and licensing out most, if not all, of the emulators under the hood since anything Eric Christensen made for their old ARM unit would require too much work to recode for Intel-based CPUs. Yeah, methinks they're stretching their dollars a little bit thin at this point. Edited March 28, 2019 by DurradonXylles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenixdownita Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 ... I am just happy Steve Snake's Kega Fusion got some loving from the man himself .... that alone is awesome in my book. Other than that until they ship my money stays in my wallet. [unless they have an exclusive agreement I don't see why other interested parties won't be able to do the exact same .... especially if they delay too long] EDIT: managed to look at their video about VirtuaRacing and it looks nice .... so now it's time to ship this thing, no more talking if you have your ducks in a row as it seems let the people speak with their wallets, no more pre-ordering just ship it!!! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atm94404 Posted March 29, 2019 Share Posted March 29, 2019 ... I am just happy Steve Snake's Kega Fusion got some loving from the man himself .... that alone is awesome in my book. Other than that until they ship my money stays in my wallet. [unless they have an exclusive agreement I don't see why other interested parties won't be able to do the exact same .... especially if they delay too long] EDIT: managed to look at their video about VirtuaRacing and it looks nice .... so now it's time to ship this thing, no more talking if you have your ducks in a row as it seems let the people speak with their wallets, no more pre-ordering just ship it!!! I hope the people who are licensing their emulators to these guys were smart enough to be paid upfront and didn't fall for the "We can't pay you now, but we'll give you a percent of each unit sold*. Well, after the first batch ships out...". Of course, by licensing some (all?) of their emulators, it just gives them more potential excuses to delay. "Due to licensing disputes, we have to delay shipment until we can write our own emulator inhouse...". I mean, they're already using an Intel chip shortage as an excuse even though their software isn't done. And of course nothing is preventing them from showing us a stack of hundreds of finished Polymega cases and motherboards just anxiously waiting for those precious Intel CPUs to arrive... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thedoppelganger Posted March 30, 2019 Share Posted March 30, 2019 Fusion 3.61 on Windows 7 is my go to for Sega emulation at this time. I've played my VR roms and watched the video uploads. I hope there's an issue with the capture/uploads because my roms play far smoother than the video looks..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flojomojo Posted March 30, 2019 Share Posted March 30, 2019 Meanwhile, SEGA just announced that M2 is doing the emulation for the Megadrive/Genesis Mini. It's nice to have choices, but between Analogue's Mega Sg and the upcoming Mini, it's going to be tough to justify a Retroblox for playing Sega games. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
godslabrat Posted March 30, 2019 Share Posted March 30, 2019 Meanwhile, SEGA just announced that M2 is doing the emulation for the Megadrive/Genesis Mini. It's nice to have choices, but between Analogue's Mega Sg and the upcoming Mini, it's going to be tough to justify a Retroblox for playing Sega games. Dude... it does 32X. Your prayers have been answered. The angels are singing. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flojomojo Posted March 30, 2019 Share Posted March 30, 2019 Dude... it does 32X. Your prayers have been answered. The angels are singing.Just like my $99 OUYA from 2012! Wouldn't it be a hilarious surprise if Mega Sg provides FPGA support for 32X before Retroblox comes out? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derFunkenstein Posted March 30, 2019 Share Posted March 30, 2019 Dude... it does 32X. Your prayers have been answered. The angels are singing. For 32X emulation, Kega Fusion has been really good for a long time. For quite a while it was the only emulator that could play the 32X version of NBA Jam TE without dropping tons of frames. So they've got that going for them, which is nice...I guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenixdownita Posted March 31, 2019 Share Posted March 31, 2019 The new videos look good, all Saturn games though ... nothing bad with them but just show us some variety. So far we know 2 emulators are not exactly developed in-house (mednafen/beetle + Kega Fusion to cover all of the Sega consoles ... that's 14 out of their accounted for 30 systems). Do we want to take bets that all the rest is also licensed and not developed in house? (at best tweaked for whatever version of Linux/kernel they chose to ship with and for the Intel Iris graphics the CPU they end up using has) I lean towards thinking that PS1 and PCE may just be via mednafen/beetle but I have not kept up to date to know what's their accuracy level and if there's any better. [nothing wrong with any of it, just that 30 systems sounds a lot more grandiose than say 6 emulators] EDIT: I am not clear if with the base unit all CD systems would work or if you need the cart module to run the respective CD games leaving the base system enabled for PS1, Saturn and NeoGeoCD only. That is to say no SegaCD, no SegaCD-32x (<- lol) and no PCE-CD (with variants superCD, arcadeCD) without the respective cart modules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
godslabrat Posted March 31, 2019 Share Posted March 31, 2019 The new videos look good, all Saturn games though ... nothing bad with them but just show us some variety. So far we know 2 emulators are not exactly developed in-house (mednafen/beetle + Kega Fusion to cover all of the Sega consoles ... that's 14 out of their accounted for 30 systems). Do we want to take bets that all the rest is also licensed and not developed in house? (at best tweaked for whatever version of Linux/kernel they chose to ship with and for the Intel Iris graphics the CPU they end up using has) I lean towards thinking that PS1 and PCE may just be via mednafen/beetle but I have not kept up to date to know what's their accuracy level and if there's any better. [nothing wrong with any of it, just that 30 systems sounds a lot more grandiose than say 6 emulators] EDIT: I am not clear if with the base unit all CD systems would work or if you need the cart module to run the respective CD games leaving the base system enabled for PS1, Saturn and NeoGeoCD only. That is to say no SegaCD, no SegaCD-32x (<- lol) and no PCE-CD (with variants superCD, arcadeCD) without the respective cart modules. If Playmaji developed anything in-house, it would likely be very weak just by virtue of the fact that it would be only a year or so old, whereas their licensed stuff is all dating back decades. IMO, they should drop the "in house" language, it's not needed and there's no shame in using good code if it's legal and suits your purpose. Still feeling like there's something being hidden under the table, but now my complaint is shifting from "this doesn't exist" to "it exists, but it's considerably less impressive than what was promised". It's not even much of a shift... the initial device, as was promised to be the second coming, DOESN'T exist and wouldn't work, and we were all called fools for saying so. Now that Playmaji has caught up with us, I don't mind giving them credit for figuring it out. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DurradonXylles Posted March 31, 2019 Share Posted March 31, 2019 (edited) So there's been something has been bothering me with their Saturn footage that I couldn't quite put my finger on before now. I'm not the most experienced when it comes to the Sega Saturn, even less so with its emulation, but I stumbled upon something when I decided to play around with Yabause (a Saturn emulator that actually has an HLE BIOS option). This is a screenshot from Polymega's demo video of Street Fighter Alpha 2, though you can also seen this legal notice on their demos of Radiant Silvergun and Virtua Racing when they play the European exclusive Saturn version of the game named "Time Warner Interactive's V.R. Virtua Racing". You'll also see this screen on all of their GDC live demo videos, including this one from their NiGHTS into Dreams demo. What's so suspicious about this screen? Well how about the fact that this screen only shows up when you use official Sega Saturn BIOS. That "PRODUCED BY or UNDER LICENSE FROM SEGA ENTERPRISES, LTD" screen is the Saturn's equivalent to the PlayStation logo when a game disc is booted up, either inserted before the console is on or when its inserted while navigating the console's menu and CD player. Playmaji's claim of 99% compatibility with HLE BIOS is a complete lie, since all of their Saturn demos show the second half of the Saturn's BIOS. I even recorded a short demo playing Sonic Jam with Saturn US BIOS and HLE BIOS, and the legal notice screen doesn't show up on the latter at all and instead just boots directly to the game. https://youtu.be/PE3xkgp9BGw I could imagine Playmaji and Polymega attempting to backtrack by saying that they never claimed that any of the demos use HLE BIOS, they simply have it completed and are still testing it out before they do public demos of it, but... https://twitter.com/polymegaHQ/status/1112046616423260160 https://youtu.be/jDsh-YFVrmE As requested! This 2.5D shooter from Treasure is hard as nails and insanely awesome! 1080p 60FPS Video played live and recorded from the real Polymega Modular Game Console. Demonstrating performance of the system, not our shooting skills! Using HLE BIOS. This is a sign that they are not anywhere close to production ready with their console. They are making whatever claims they wish to get people to buy into the idea of this console, and even straight up lying about what their console can do. I know they're saying whatever it takes to convince people of their console's validity because a couple hours before they posted that tweet and video with that claim, I straight up asked them in the comments of their Street Fighter Alpha 2 demo video if the games they're demonstrating are using HLE BIOS (and liked it myself since YouTube analytics don't cover what users like videos or comments, only how many likes that user got, and wanted to make it look like other people were curious about this as well). They loved my comment and straight up responded, "Yes," despite my username and profile picture being the same there as it is here and on Twitter, where I've been doing nothing but criticizing them. This isn't a SNES Jr. covered with electrical tape and shoved into an Atari Jaguar shell, but this does prove that they are lying about various elements with their console. If they're willing to lie, falsely advertise, and commit copyright infringement over something like this, what else are they lying about or faking with their console? How far have they really come along in their console's development if their "tweetstorm" includes this as one of their notable updates, and we've yet to see it? https://twitter.com/polymegaHQ/status/1108782935916765190 Update 3: On the eve of the Sega Saturn's 25th anniversary, we are proud to announce we have hit 99% game and 99% HLE BIOS compatibility for the entire Sega Saturn Disc Library. Full speed. PS1 HLE BIOS is 90+% currently and will be improved further in the coming 2 months. If there are people here or elsewhere who are still excited for the console, I hope for your sake they deliver. But... I would be wary about putting any money down for this when preorders reopen. Edited March 31, 2019 by DurradonXylles 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
godslabrat Posted March 31, 2019 Share Posted March 31, 2019 So there's been something has been bothering me with their Saturn footage that I couldn't quite put my finger on before now. I'm not the most experienced when it comes to the Sega Saturn, even less so with its emulation, but I stumbled upon something when I decided to play around with Yabause (a Saturn emulator that actually has an HLE BIOS option). This is a screenshot from Polymega's demo video of Street Fighter Alpha 2, though you can also seen this legal notice on their demos of Radiant Silvergun and Virtua Racing when they play the European exclusive Saturn version of the game named "Time Warner Interactive's V.R. Virtua Racing". You'll also see this screen on all of their GDC live demo videos, including this one from their NiGHTS into Dreams demo. What's so suspicious about this screen? Well how about the fact that this screen only shows up when you use official Sega Saturn BIOS. That "PRODUCED BY or UNDER LICENSE FROM SEGA ENTERPRISES, LTD" screen is the Saturn's equivalent to the PlayStation logo when a game disc is booted up, either inserted before the console is on or when its inserted while navigating the console's menu and CD player. Playmaji's claim of 99% compatibility with HLE BIOS is a complete lie, since all of their Saturn demos show the second half of the Saturn's BIOS. I even recorded a short demo playing Sonic Jam with Saturn US BIOS and HLE BIOS, and the legal notice screen doesn't show up on the latter at all and instead just boots directly to the game. https://youtu.be/PE3xkgp9BGw I could imagine Playmaji and Polymega attempting to backtrack by saying that they never claimed that any of the demos use HLE BIOS, they simply have it completed and are still testing it out before they do public demos of it, but... https://twitter.com/polymegaHQ/status/1112046616423260160 https://youtu.be/jDsh-YFVrmE This is a sign that they are not anywhere close to production ready with their console. They are making whatever claims they wish to get people to buy into the idea of this console, and even straight up lying about what their console can do. I know they're saying whatever it takes to convince people of their console's validity because a couple hours before they posted that tweet and video with that claim, I straight up asked them in the comments of their Street Fighter Alpha 2 demo video if the games they're demonstrating are using HLE BIOS (and liked it myself since YouTube analytics don't cover what users like videos or comments, only how many likes that user got, and wanted to make it look like other people were curious about this as well). They loved my comment and straight up responded, "Yes," despite my username and profile picture being the same there as it is here and on Twitter, where I've been doing nothing but criticizing them. This isn't a SNES Jr. covered with electrical tape and shoved into an Atari Jaguar shell, but this does prove that they are lying about various elements with their console. If they're willing to lie, falsely advertise, and commit copyright infringement over something like this, what else are they lying about or faking with their console? How far have they really come along in their console's development if their "tweetstorm" includes this as one of their notable updates, and we've yet to see it? https://twitter.com/polymegaHQ/status/1108782935916765190 If there are people here or elsewhere who are still excited for the console, I hope for your sake they deliver. But... I would be wary about putting any money down for this when preorders reopen. Oh, man... and given how touchy they were when the CRT filter was questioned, I can't imagine they'll take kindly to being challenged here. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DurradonXylles Posted March 31, 2019 Share Posted March 31, 2019 (edited) Oh, man... and given how touchy they were when the CRT filter was questioned, I can't imagine they'll take kindly to being challenged here.They haven't. They commented on my video, confirming that they are following this thread and each criticism rather closely. They tried to give me a bullshit excuse that the way Yabause uses HLE BIOS only forgoes the legal notice. Bullshit, guys. I used HxD to check the BIOS files, and the notice is stored as plain text in it. You're using Saturn BIOS in your demos and passing it off as your own. EDIT: I've made the video public now. Feel free to read Polymega's comment and chime in with your own two cents. Edited March 31, 2019 by DurradonXylles 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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