Retroblox

[elmer]

So far we know 2 emulators are not exactly developed in-house (mednafen/beetle + Kega Fusion to cover all of the Sega consoles ... that's 14 out of their accounted for 30 systems).

...

I lean towards thinking that PS1 and PCE may just be via mednafen/beetle but I have not kept up to date to know what's their accuracy level and if there's any better.

I can't comment about the PS1 emulation, but the current RetroBlox strategy seems to be licensing old closed-source emulators that had some sort of HLE BIOS work already done.

 

They can license Ryphecha's work on Mednafen's Saturn emulation because that's her own personal work.

 

I'm fairly sure that Mednafen's PCE and PS1 emulators include a bunch of other-people's GPL'd open source contributions that can't easily be used in the closed-source Retroblox.

 

For the PCE, it seems far more likely to me that Retroblox is licensing David Michel's closed-source MagicEngine, especially since that is the only PCE emulator that has some form of an HLE BIOS-replacement.

 

Now MagicEngine hasn't been updated since 2008, it some known problems with games, the HLE BIOS definitely has bugs ... and the HLE BIOS's legality hasn't been tested (i.e. where did the authors get their 12x12 & 16x16 Japanese fonts from, and did they really write a replacement for the System Card's rather complex built-in sound driver?).

 

 

If they *have* managed to license Mednafen's PCE emulation, then they're getting the best-quality PCE emulator that's currently in existence. But even then, it's not perfect. I reported a small bug in it a couple of weeks ago.

[godslabrat]

They haven't. They commented on my video, confirming that they are following this thread and each criticism rather closely. They tried to give me a bullshit excuse that the way Yabause uses HLE BIOS only forgoes the legal notice. Bullshit, guys. I used HxD to check the BIOS files, and the notice is stored as plain text in it. You're using Saturn BIOS in your demos and passing it off as your own.

EDIT: I've made the video public now. Feel free to read Polymega's comment and chime in with your own two cents.

I'm not seeing your post or polymega's response to it.

[DurradonXylles]

I'm not seeing your post or polymega's response to it.

 

It's in the long post I made before the last one. My apologies. Here's the link again:

[phoenixdownita]

So we are concerned that for the Saturn they may be showing the emu with a real BIOS (which customers cannot really get a copy of without basically infringing copyright laws) and we don't really know how good it is the compatibility with the potentially yet-to-be-seen BIOS replacement (HLE or clean room rev eng whatever it may be).

 

MegaDrive is BIOS-less so that is not a problem, while 32X seems to have a freeware implementation (Kega Fusion had its own but whether that could be called clean room or not I never knew).

How about NGCD? I love UniBIOS but clean room rev eng implementation it is not.

 

Note that disassembling any BIOS to reproduce some/any of its workings it is not a clean room procedure and taints the result afaik.

EDIT: ... but maybe not

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_Computer_Entertainment,_Inc._v._Connectix_Corp.

and then again

http://www.worldofspectrum.org/EmuFAQ2000/EmuFAQ_Y2KAddendum1.htm

[DurradonXylles]

So we are concerned that for the Saturn they may be showing the emu with a real BIOS (which customers cannot really get a copy of without basically infringing copyright laws) and we don't really know how good it is the compatibility with the potentially yet-to-be-seen BIOS replacement (HLE or clean room rev eng whatever it may be).

 

MegaDrive is BIOS-less so that is not a problem, while 32X seems to have a freeware implementation (Kega Fusion had its own but whether that could be called clean room or not I never knew).

How about NGCD? I love UniBIOS but clean room rev eng implementation it is not.

 

Note that disassembling any BIOS to reproduce some/any of its workings it is not a clean room procedure and taints the result afaik.

EDIT: ... but maybe not

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_Computer_Entertainment,_Inc._v._Connectix_Corp.

and then again

http://www.worldofspectrum.org/EmuFAQ2000/EmuFAQ_Y2KAddendum1.htm

 

The Neo Geo CD emulation is running CDZ BIOS as far as their GDC demo of shows.

 

However, I have royally screwed up when it comes to my accusation revolving around Saturn BIOS. I have said before that I am ill-experienced with the Saturn hardware or its emulation, and that is now quite apparent after Polymega threw some information at me that I verified myself last night. Basically, the Sega Saturn's BIOS does in fact contain the text information of the legal notice when a game boots, as well as the font of the text that appears, but doesn't contain the SEGA graphic or visual text information. It's a part of the Saturn's intricate copy protection, where it checks for that same information to be stored within the first sixteen sectors on the disc. That information is then stored into HRAM and pulls the font data from the BIOS to make this legal screen.

 

(This is the official Saturn BIOS running in Yabause.)

 

So how does this prove my theory and accusation wrong? Well let's look once again at the screencap I pulled from one of their videos.

Despite the 4:3 aspect ratio squashing the SEGA graphic and text a bit, there are visual differences between the fonts. Letters like O, U, C, N, G are written differently, and this same screen appears like that in all of their demo videos. While I am still skeptical of Playmaji and Polymega both inside and out technical areas, I would rather not continue going down this avenue. As far I have seen with the new information given to me, their claims of HLE BIOS aren't as outlandish as I've previously claimed, or at the very least aren't as easily faked I lead myself to believe with my lack of knowledge of the Saturn's hardware, software or how they're emulated.

 

I apologize to Playmaji and to you guys, its not fair for anyone that I muddy the waters and move away from healthy skepticism into the toxic zeitgeist I often despise social media for. I am not going to attempt to hide my previous few posts or make up excuses for them, I reacted too quickly on perceived notions and flew with them like a bat out of hell. I'm not taking down the video, instead I removed all references and tags to Polymega and decided to remove the conversion we had under it as the video would be good to use for reference since there are people like myself who are curious about how basic emulation functions work. For the sake posterity, as always, I do have the conversation screencapped and will share it here.

 

 

 

Once again, I apologize everyone for leading you all down the garden path with my outlandish claim, and being ill equipped to actually make comment on anything in this subject.

 

With this said, I want to address Playmaji directly, as I have some basic advice and constructive criticism. Yes, the people in the retro gaming community and market are hesitant and skeptical, sometimes to a fault. We constantly make jabs and joking comparisons to people like Mike Kennedy because he's one example of many who have tried to push an idea first and fail to deliver when we wanted to see more of their million dollar idea. That is the nature of this still niche hobbyist community and the cashflow with it. Some of us are snobs, as I've seen you guys use that word numerous times, but most of us just have the basic expectation of cost versus quality. You are selling a $200+ emulation machine that is wildly different from the original proposed design, isn't yet on the market, and you have been only transparent about how it functions or what you've been doing behind the scenes when it's convenient for you. That makes people understandably suspicious and speak out against you.

 

You spoke a lot about Analogue the last couple weeks, and been low key acting very bitter about them and the Mega Sg as if we've always loved them. I can tell you people for a fact that this has not been the case. The original Analogue NT was loathed among many people in places like this, mainly because it was a NES clone that was priced similarly to a Neo Geo AES using original chips from donor boards. The irony is that a vocal minority hated it because it a console that appeared snobbish to them in design and pricing. When the Analogue NT Mini was announced, people were ready to rake it through the coals as people are doing with your console now, and were pretty damned skeptical that it was going to work as well as it did despite them stating that they were moving away from original hardware to FPGA. You know what changed that? Proof and transparency. Analogue's reputation and visage has changed drastically in the last couple years because of these things.

 

If you want people to stop being endlessly skeptical, be realistic, honest, open and not take every little thing people say on Twitter personally. Be honest about what's running under the hood on all public platforms (people having to dig for this makes them a bit disgruntled), give updates in a timely manner even if you know it'll be met with backlash, and rethink what sales strategies you have moving forward. Maybe release the first batch of consoles before you open orders for more. It sucks, but if you want the benefit of the doubt that's where you start when you're working in an industry where you answer to the public constantly. You're going to be at this disadvantage with until you deliver hardware and show people you have nothing to hide.

 

Once again, I apologize for going nuclear with a half-baked assumption. It is a genuine disservice to you and the people having this conversation. I do ask that you heed what I say though. With that said, I'm walking away from this conversation.

[godslabrat]

 

The Neo Geo CD emulation is running CDZ BIOS as far as their GDC demo of shows.

 

However, I have royally screwed up when it comes to my accusation revolving around Saturn BIOS. I have said before that I am ill-experienced with the Saturn hardware or its emulation, and that is now quite apparent after Polymega threw some information at me that I verified myself last night. Basically, the Sega Saturn's BIOS does in fact contain the text information of the legal notice when a game boots, as well as the font of the text that appears, but doesn't contain the SEGA graphic or visual text information. It's a part of the Saturn's intricate copy protection, where it checks for that same information to be stored within the first sixteen sectors on the disc. That information is then stored into HRAM and pulls the font data from the BIOS to make this legal screen.

 

(This is the official Saturn BIOS running in Yabause.)

 

So how does this prove my theory and accusation wrong? Well let's look once again at the screencap I pulled from one of their videos.

Despite the 4:3 aspect ratio squashing the SEGA graphic and text a bit, there are visual differences between the fonts. Letters like O, U, C, N, G are written differently, and this same screen appears like that in all of their demo videos. While I am still skeptical of Playmaji and Polymega both inside and out technical areas, I would rather not continue going down this avenue. As far I have seen with the new information given to me, their claims of HLE BIOS aren't as outlandish as I've previously claimed, or at the very least aren't as easily faked I lead myself to believe with my lack of knowledge of the Saturn's hardware, software or how they're emulated.

 

I apologize to Playmaji and to you guys, its not fair for anyone that I muddy the waters and move away from healthy skepticism into the toxic zeitgeist I often despise social media for. I am not going to attempt to hide my previous few posts or make up excuses for them, I reacted too quickly on perceived notions and flew with them like a bat out of hell. I'm not taking down the video, instead I removed all references and tags to Polymega and decided to remove the conversion we had under it as the video would be good to use for reference since there are people like myself who are curious about how basic emulation functions work. For the sake posterity, as always, I do have the conversation screencapped and will share it here.

 

 

 

Once again, I apologize everyone for leading you all down the garden path with my outlandish claim, and being ill equipped to actually make comment on anything in this subject.

 

With this said, I want to address Playmaji directly, as I have some basic advice and constructive criticism. Yes, the people in the retro gaming community and market are hesitant and skeptical, sometimes to a fault. We constantly make jabs and joking comparisons to people like Mike Kennedy because he's one example of many who have tried to push an idea first and fail to deliver when we wanted to see more of their million dollar idea. That is the nature of this still niche hobbyist community and the cashflow with it. Some of us are snobs, as I've seen you guys use that word numerous times, but most of us just have the basic expectation of cost versus quality. You are selling a $200+ emulation machine that is wildly different from the original proposed design, isn't yet on the market, and you have been only transparent about how it functions or what you've been doing behind the scenes when it's convenient for you. That makes people understandably suspicious and speak out against you.

 

You spoke a lot about Analogue the last couple weeks, and been low key acting very bitter about them and the Mega Sg as if we've always loved them. I can tell you people for a fact that this has not been the case. The original Analogue NT was loathed among many people in places like this, mainly because it was a NES clone that was priced similarly to a Neo Geo AES using original chips from donor boards. The irony is that a vocal minority hated it because it a console that appeared snobbish to them in design and pricing. When the Analogue NT Mini was announced, people were ready to rake it through the coals as people are doing with your console now, and were pretty damned skeptical that it was going to work as well as it did despite them stating that they were moving away from original hardware to FPGA. You know what changed that? Proof and transparency. Analogue's reputation and visage has changed drastically in the last couple years because of these things.

 

If you want people to stop being endlessly skeptical, be realistic, honest, open and not take every little thing people say on Twitter personally. Be honest about what's running under the hood on all public platforms (people having to dig for this makes them a bit disgruntled), give updates in a timely manner even if you know it'll be met with backlash, and rethink what sales strategies you have moving forward. Maybe release the first batch of consoles before you open orders for more. It sucks, but if you want the benefit of the doubt that's where you start when you're working in an industry where you answer to the public constantly. You're going to be at this disadvantage with until you deliver hardware and show people you have nothing to hide.

 

Once again, I apologize for going nuclear with a half-baked assumption. It is a genuine disservice to you and the people having this conversation. I do ask that you heed what I say though. With that said, I'm walking away from this conversation.

I, for one, appreciate your candor and mea culpa. We can't fault PolyMega unfairly. It's significant that they've created this atmosphere of distrust via their tactics, but it's important that we only stick to the facts.

[thedoppelganger]

I think I too may have dropped a clanger.

 

When I earlier compared Virtua Racing running via Fusion 3.61 on my Windows PC with Polymega's Youtube videos, I must have been comparing Megadrive to 32X (I don't have the Saturn rom). A sort of admin error where used I the wrong video - where have we seen that before ? Anyway, sorry Polymega Team!

 

Hopefully Polymega are reading this and grasp that we are not being critical for the sake of it - it's because we really really really want this to actually work out.

Edited April 1, 2019 by thedoppelganger

[derFunkenstein]

I like that they asked for "the benefit of the doubt" when they have done zero over the last year to earn it.

[Flojomojo]

Weren't they going to make or drop or say something on April 1st?

[phoenixdownita]

...

However, I have royally screwed up when it comes to my accusation revolving around Saturn BIOS.

...

Once again, I apologize for going nuclear with a half-baked assumption. It is a genuine disservice to you and the people having this conversation. I do ask that you heed what I say though. With that said, I'm walking away from this conversation.

It takes a grown up man to admit a mistake, if only we could expect the same from them ... oh the irony!

[atm94404]

 

 

For 32X emulation, Kega Fusion has been really good for a long time. For quite a while it was the only emulator that could play the 32X version of NBA Jam TE without dropping tons of frames. So they've got that going for them, which is nice...I guess.

 

While Kega Fusion is good, it's not perfect. Digital Foundry did a review of the Mega SG and compared it extensively to other emulators including Kega and the Mega SG trounced them all.

In fact, the Mega Drive's famous "Blast Processing" is perfectly replicated on the SG, while on others not so much:

https://youtu.be/_ZCQ6kN9Ie0?t=883

Similarly, audio on the Kega was good (but not perfect) while the Mega SG was indistinguishable from the real thing (or better).

So if you want as close to the real thing as you can get, you'll have to go with either the Mega SG or possibly a MiSTer if you're more tech-capable and patient for the community to perfect each core.

Edited April 1, 2019 by atm94404

[derFunkenstein]

While Kega Fusion is good, it's not perfect. Digital Foundry did a review of the Mega SG and compared it extensively to other emulators including Kega and the Mega SG trounced them all.

In fact, the Mega Drive's famous "Blast Processing" is perfectly replicated on the SG, while on others not so much:

https://youtu.be/_ZCQ6kN9Ie0?t=883

Similarly, audio on the Kega was good (but not perfect) while the Mega SG was indistinguishable from the real thing (or better).

So if you want as close to the real thing as you can get, you'll have to go with either the Mega SG or possibly a MiSTer if you're more tech-capable and patient for the community to perfect each core.

I don't see how Digital Foundry's video addresses my claim that for 32X emulation Kega Fusion does well. Obviously it hasn't been updated in years so its Genesis emulation is subpar.

 

Yes, the Mega Sg is a great product. I have one. I don't do software emulation at all for mainstream consoles like the Genesis. The 32X, OTOH, I don't mind Kega Fusion one bit.

[phoenixdownita]

From their twitter it seems like they are confirming pre-orders for shipping, pending Intel availability.

Depending on when Intel gives them the chips maybe we can start seeing some units in the wild. It would be a very nice change of pace.

No more speculation, videos, just hard facts ... and I am so tired of seeing Saturn games, I love it and I understand it is a nice feather in Polymega hat but show us some of the rest (PS1, SNES etc...), after all Poly means Many so ....

[godslabrat]

From their twitter it seems like they are confirming pre-orders for shipping, pending Intel availability.

Depending on when Intel gives them the chip maybe we can start seeing some units in the wild. It would be a very nice change of pace.

No more speculation, videos, just hard facts ... and I am so tired of seeing Saturn games, I love it and I understand it is a nice feather in Polymega hat but show us some of the rest (PS1, SNES etc...), after all Poly means Many so ....

I'll give them all the credit in the world for shipping something, if so. It's not what I want, nor how I want to do business, but delivering is delivering.

[phoenixdownita]

So after all the posturing during MegaSg launch today it was very quiet .... hope that they are preparing to ship.

 

I think the stunt was to try to capture audience away from Analogue and funding their project, can't blame for the attempt as it seems it's getting crowded in the retro market, at the same time as God's Lab Rat put it "not how I want to do business" .... I really hope they pull it off, it seems the Saturn emu is good but alone I don't think it is a system seller, I wonder if they even managed to replicate the copy protection or just about any "ISO" would work in the end .... time will tell.

[RetrogamerX]

I wonder if they even managed to replicate the copy protection or just about any "ISO" would work in the end .... time will tell.

I would like to know this? Can you just load bin and cue files or will burnt CD-R’s work?

[Flojomojo]

Professor Parish seems to have liked it well enough to write this thing, which at first glance *almost* reads like a paid advertorial.

 

http://www.nintendolife.com/news/2019/04/hands_on_polymega_is_shaping_up_to_be_the_ultimate_all-in-one_retro_emulation_box

[derFunkenstein]

I would like to know this? Can you just load bin and cue files or will burnt CD-R’s work?

 

If they're really just doing HLE BIOSes they'd have to go out of their way to block CD-Rs from working. Since they've been so weird about ROM support, though, I have to think that's exactly what they've done.

 

They don't need to replicate copy protection, just look to see the media type. Any modern disc drive knows the difference between a CD-R and a pressed disc.

Edited April 10, 2019 by derFunkenstein

[thedoppelganger]

Now that they've switched to an Emulation PC, the door should be easily open to emulating older consoles. For me that would be Atari 2600 VCS and the Colecovision/Adam. And a proper version of Pong!.....

These and others had official threads - created by Polymega themselves - in their now closed forums.

Both had the same pad socket as a Genesis/Megadrive so that might be a way to allow connection of original controllers.

Why not have an SD slot in the dust cover/blank module that comes with the system for these old Roms ?

Are you reading this Playmaji ? It's a PC - just like the one I'm typing on now which is 7 years old and plays roms of EVERY game I ever had.

[derFunkenstein]

Now that they've switched to an Emulation PC, the door should be easily open to emulating older consoles. For me that would be Atari 2600 VCS and the Colecovision/Adam. And a proper version of Pong!.....

These and others had official threads - created by Polymega themselves - in their now closed forums.

Both had the same pad socket as a Genesis/Megadrive so that might be a way to allow connection of original controllers.

Why not have an SD slot in the dust cover/blank module that comes with the system for these old Roms ?

Are you reading this Playmaji ? It's a PC - just like the one I'm typing on now which is 7 years old and plays roms of EVERY game I ever had.

No ROM support, though. You need a cart adapter thing by their current business model. It'd sell WAY better with ROM support but they've got this ridiculous refusal. They'd have to make modules for pre-crash systems.

[godslabrat]

Now that they've switched to an Emulation PC, the door should be easily open to emulating older consoles. For me that would be Atari 2600 VCS and the Colecovision/Adam. And a proper version of Pong!.....

These and others had official threads - created by Polymega themselves - in their now closed forums.

Both had the same pad socket as a Genesis/Megadrive so that might be a way to allow connection of original controllers.

Why not have an SD slot in the dust cover/blank module that comes with the system for these old Roms ?

Are you reading this Playmaji ? It's a PC - just like the one I'm typing on now which is 7 years old and plays roms of EVERY game I ever had.

No no no... you have to understand, (smarten up!) that just because it's basically a PC, doesn't mean Playmaji can offer you all the advantages of a pc. They have to make sure that their rom store backers are happy... the user base, notsomuch.

[Flojomojo]

No ROM support, though. You need a cart adapter thing by their current business model. It'd sell WAY better with ROM support but they've got this ridiculous refusal. They'd have to make modules for pre-crash systems.

 

 

Jeremy says

While this adds an element of inconvenience and encumbrance to the Polymega, I get the impression its creators have adopted this approach to embrace legitimacy and improve their odds of retail distribution.

 

Okayyyyyy ...

 

I am kinda amused at his inability to write a short sentence.

 

Where retrogaming fans once had to make do with Nintendo's haphazard Virtual Console release schedule and an occasional dribble of retro compilations, today we have something approaching an embarrassment of riches: Mini-arcade cabinets of all sizes; Arcade Archives; a revival of massive anthologies produced to higher standards than in previous generations; brand-new games for vintage consoles; and painstakingly recreated high-end facsimiles of the old machines themselves.

Speaking as someone whose work has drifted into the 'bespoke original hardware setup' area at considerable personal cost, effort, and frustration, I've grown increasingly interested in solutions that can provide authentic retro game experiences without the pain involved in getting, say, a triple-decker Sega Genesis "tower of power" or Virtual Boy set up to run in high-definition on contemporary TVs.

Promising support for (deep breath) NES, SNES, Genesis, Sega CD, Saturn, PlayStation, PC Engine and PC Engine CD-ROM – as well as all of the related regional derivatives of those platforms – the concept seemed almost too good to be true... which in fact turned out to be the case.

[dj_convoy]

I, too, come from the school of run-on sentences, so that doesn't bother me as much as his apparently embracing the product after spending a mere hour (!) with it.

[godslabrat]

Like I said, it's NintendoLife. They're basically PolyMega Power.

[derFunkenstein]

Im sure hed call the article nuanced but I just see all kinds of weasel words and spun truths.