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peteym5

Inflate/Deflate Has anyone optimized these routines

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If I was doing a cartridge release I'd be looking at piggybacking off the work of Electrotrains and use the STM32F4 as the cartridge:

http://atariage.com/forums/topic/257488-racing-the-atari-bus-with-a-stm32f4-microcontroller/?p=3639094

 

128K and a cost of ~$13.

But - but - but. You would be putting Lance and his fulltime crew out of business. The humanity.

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I will only consider having a message if it takes over 5 seconds. Turning off the DMA and NMIs will blank out the screen which many people do if they need the Atari 8-bit to process something faster. Stuff under 2K, you won't even notice anything because it deflates under 1 second.

 

With this newest inflate. I found something, JSR Getbit happens in 2 different spots. Copy and paste the code from the "getbit" routine into "getbits_loop" and "fetchCode" to save time from extra cpu calls. Routine will be a few bytes long, but will reduce the time it takes to inflate larger files.

...
...
...

fetchCode
;	ldy	#0
	tya
fetchCode_nextBit
	lsr	getBit_buffer
	bne	GetBit_End_Fetch
	pha
	lda	(inputPointer),y
	inw	inputPointer
	sec
	ror	@
	sta	getBit_buffer
	pla
GetBit_End_Fetch

...
...
...

getWord
	jsr	getByte
	tax
; Read 8 bits
getByte
	lda	#$80
getBits_loop
	lsr	getBit_buffer
	bne	getBit_return
	pha
	lda	(inputPointer),y
	inw	inputPointer
	sec
	ror	@
	sta	getBit_buffer
	pla
getBit_return
	ror	@
	bcc	getBits_loop
	rts
...
...
Edited by peteym5

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Come on, it is 2017, no need to protect any A8 program against hackers. Whatever you do - a hacker will be able to undo. Even if you create the best copy protection ever made on the A8 (better than EA, Synapse, etc.), someone will be able to hack/crack it. As irgendwer already said, better spend your time on gamecode and bugfixing. Here is something to relax for you...

 

Yeah, he should get his own damned Pepsi...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tf8TBAGxZrg

 

 

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Report to moderator submitted!!! People turned this into another bashing Video61, KJMANN, and PeteyM5 session or attempts to press their case for digital downloads.

Edited by peteym5

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Report to moderator submitted!!! People turned this into another bashing Video61, KJMANN, and PeteyM5 session or attempts to press their case for digital downloads.

 

*sigh*

Edited by ProWizard

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Post and Code deleted. I decided to no longer share how I am improving speed with Inflate and not ask for help from other programmers here since this is being turned into a bashing thread.

Edited by peteym5

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I decided to continue discussion about inflate/deflate under the Atari 5200 / 8-bit Programming sub-forum. Since people are more serious about talking about programming there. I am out of here....

Edited by peteym5

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I decided to continue discussion about inflate/deflate under the Atari 5200 / 8-bit Programming sub-forum. Since people are more serious about talking about programming there. I am out of here....

hi peter,

 

sorry to see this again. under capitalism, we are allowed our own business model. that model some times makes people upset, like when apple forced the clone makers out of the apple clone business. did it kill off apple, nope. will only supplying the real physical experience on the atari 8-bit drive us out of the business, nope, we have sold hundreds of these carts, and will sell hundreds more.

some people are really pissed that we help some of our fellow human beings. but under capitalism, we have to have wage earners to buy our stuff. if they want a different system that is ok. they can try to change things all they want. till then, we help people who could never find help in today's world.

some of the titles i make nothing on. but at my age, that's ok. life has been pretty good to me, and i want life to be good for others. in today's world i look like a chump to many, and get laughed at. but i simply do not care.

i find it a pleasure to work with you peter and others. i could have retired years ago, but i do not want to. so now we work on trying to port our stuff over to the 5200, the 7800, still supporting the 8-bit, and perhaps the lynx and the jaguar. there will be customers for it all.

 

lance

www.atarisales.com

 

lance

www.atarisales.com

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You guys simply do not learn.

 

If there's demand for digital copies, why do not sell them ie. together with fancy covers (to make more people involved and thus help them this way).

 

But, instead of it, you've chosen to call those people pirates and hackers and try to find several guilty ones of the fact you decided to make games cartridge-only.

 

All right. It's your own business.

 

But does your quality control has improved? Are the games tested thoroughly on real hardware to work on PAL systems as well? Or only on Altirra?

 

And lat one:

 

This is/was your label:

xenophobe_cart_V61.JPG

 

vs this (done by some guy from our Forum Atarum):

xenophobe_cart2.JPG

 

Well, I wish you good luck on all cartridge only platforms. ;)

 

 

 

Kthxgbye!

Edited by miker
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For those that wish to continue to work on improving decompression time, I started a new thread under the programming sub-forum.

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You guys simply do not learn.

 

If there's demand for digital copies, why do not sell them ie. together with fancy covers (to make more people involved and thus help them this way).

 

But, instead of it, you've chosen to call those people pirates and hackers and try to find several guilty ones of the fact you decided to make games cartridge-only.

 

All right. It's your own business.

 

But does your quality control has improved? Are the games tested thoroughly on real hardware to work on PAL systems as well? Or only on Altirra?

 

And lat one:

 

This is/was your label:

xenophobe_cart_V61.JPG

 

vs this (done by some guy from our Forum Atarum):

xenophobe_cart2.JPG

 

Well, I wish you good luck on all cartridge only platforms. ;)

 

 

 

Kthxgbye!

i never called anyone a pirate. i have been in this business for 37 years. i can tell you i have seen one anti-pirate scheme after another fail. but, i like the physical experience, as do many people and customers. i made promises to some people i would do what i could for them so that they can be productive, and have something. and i like the physical experience.

 

the label you are showing me, may have been made by someone who works with me, or one of my customers. till a while ago, many people would come forward and say i can make a better label than that crummy label, even though the label was from someone else, that said they could make a better label, than that crummy label, it got to the point where i may have used a half a dozen, to a dozen labels on just one release alone, before i said i have had enough.

 

two of the people in my group now make and design the labels. it gives them some purpose, and the ability to earn something. if you do not like the label, you can design your own, or buy one from someone else.

 

as far as quality control is concerned, do you run a pc, or a mac? because if you do, you might run into some bug ridden expensive software someday, from some mighty big companies, let alone their own O.S.'s and many times you have to live with the bugs.

 

thanks for buying the xenophobe from me. some of the money went to others whom need it.

 

lance

www.atarisales.com

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i never called anyone a pirate. i have been in this business for 37 years. i can tell you i have seen one anti-pirate scheme after another fail. but, i like the physical experience, as do many people and customers. i made promises to some people i would do what i could for them so that they can be productive, and have something. and i like the physical experience.

 

the label you are showing me, may have been made by someone who works with me, or one of my customers. till a while ago, many people would come forward and say i can make a better label than that crummy label, even though the label was from someone else, that said they could make a better label, than that crummy label, it got to the point where i may have used a half a dozen, to a dozen labels on just one release alone, before i said i have had enough.

 

two of the people in my group now make and design the labels. it gives them some purpose, and the ability to earn something. if you do not like the label, you can design your own, or buy one from someone else.

 

as far as quality control is concerned, do you run a pc, or a mac? because if you do, you might run into some bug ridden expensive software someday, from some mighty big companies, let alone their own O.S.'s and many times you have to live with the bugs.

 

thanks for buying the xenophobe from me. some of the money went to others whom need it.

 

lance

www.atarisales.com

 

With the risk of indeed creating a never ending story, for one more time I try to response to what you write.

 

Indeed you do not call anyone a pirate, but your coder peteym5 has a focus on hackers, piracy and all that. Almost everything he asks has in someway a relationship with protecting his code from hackers. That is a good right, but with the things that happened in the past in mind (where your kjmann and peteym5 called all a8 users pirates) it is not 'us' that derail the topics all the time, but it is peteym5 that keeps linking most subjects to hackers. If you have any guts in your body, you would take the time to check if that is right what I write.

 

For an example: this thread about inflating/deflating on a sudden moment you'll see that peteym5's interest in this subject is linked to preventing code to hackers.

 

What I find surprising is that you never in the past brought up the subject of 'sharing other people in the wealth' or helping people who need it. This is a very noble attitude of you, and I respect it. Serious! But you bring it up now? If you brought this up years ago ( I remember we had this e-mail conversation in 2014 already) I would have let it go. You finally have found a reason for not selling other than a cart, that nobody can or will fight. You want to support other people with a purchase of a cart from V61. Well, I find this a good reason.

 

But.... to be honest, I don't believe you. I offered you same money as for the original cart. I even offered to pay shipping. Without sending me a physical cart, you save shipping costs, AND costs for physical cart. So you have ENOUGH money with my purchase to support all the people you want to support. But you still say no? There must be another reason, that is for sure... which is btw. still your right. It is your business, and indeed I'm not in the position to tell you what to do, or what not to do.

 

As you can read: I still have my doubts though. Besides that: I think all the unneeded shipping is giving extra pollution and I still do not understand why peteym5's focus seems to be entirely on anti-piracy. I still have somewhere the idea that you folks concentrate on carts, because you guys are under the impression that that is the only way to protect your IP.

The reason I keep asking, is because of the mixed signals I get. Suddenly Peteym5 is interested in flash carts, then he is not, then he is. Then he starts about looking for sites which give him a pay-per-download solution, then he is not looking for that. Everytime he gives me a reason which feeds my hope. Again, you can check this out. See my responses of the last year, and you'll notice I never start about this subject myself.

 

What I miss in the entire story, is the fact that in general people in a8 scene are kind people, supporting and respecting everybody's work. So far never showed up a copyrighted title of V61. Nobody shares software that shouldn't be spread. People know how hard people work, and how important it is to keep the scene alive. I think it is a bloody shame that peteym5 sees all the a8 people as bashers and pirates.

 

He obviously has a hard time seeing his own contribution in this endless story. Everytime he starts about anti-piracy, I think sure pinch again... and when people like me respond, he plays the 'bitten dog' ... and whines about people derailing his threads.

 

I think if peteym5 stops referring to hackers and pirates 'every' other post, perhaps a real conversation would be possible.

I think that taking that tone, one should expect criticism.

 

Like I wrote in the other post, you inspired me with your noble attitude.

I offered my 50 euros ( I saved for the game) to charity. Best spent 50 euros in 2017 I think.

 

I wish you sincerely luck with all your games and business. I wish peteym5 all the best with his coding. And I surely hope this message gives some more insight in why things happened this way.

Edited by ProWizard
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First of all I did not use the word "pirates" or mentioned anything about anti-piracy. Using compression makes it difficult for someone to load the binaries with hex editors and making changes. Could be used to deter someone to change the game and cheat, or to look up on how to solve the game.

 

I looked at pay-per-download sites last year because I am looking to reboot my PC software business and had nothing to do with the Atari. I am currently finish some smaller Atari Games and will be working on software for other platforms in a few months. I will see what type of success I have with selling PC software before making any further decisions. If you know any good sites, let me know. I have to factor in monthly fees and what percentage do they get per download. Countries and US states are starting up a tax on digital good, called "digital sales tax." It has been proposed to the New York State legislator here.

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I looked at pay-per-download sites last year because I am looking to reboot my PC software business and had nothing to do with the Atari. I am currently finish some smaller Atari Games and will be working on software for other platforms in a few months. I will see what type of success I have with selling PC software before making any further decisions. If you know any good sites, let me know. I have to factor in monthly fees and what percentage do they get per download. Countries and US states are starting up a tax on digital good, called "digital sales tax." It has been proposed to the New York State legislator here.

 

 

Easiest route is making games for iOS, although people don't like paying more than a buck per game. Apple takes care of everything. For the PC, look at getting your games on Steam.

 

If you still want to do it yourself, PayPal or Gumroad both make it easy to sell digital goods.

 

As for the digital tax, it's not any more work than what is happening now with selling physical goods. Video61 collects sales tax from MN residents (Or they should be, although there is no reference to this on their order page). Customers from other states are responsible for paying their own tax. In Ohio, it's a question on the state income tax form.

 

You only have to worry about sales tax to customers in the state you reside.

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I don't get it... IMHO... if they don't like the people here and only wish to use their knowledge... don't share and always have bad things to say... why do they keep coming here? Must be they need help and want to make money... the only time they are here is when help is needed and when they help themselves, more like a one way street or blind alley.... and if someone helps with a project they can expect their ideas to be used with no return or mention of any kind. Later a person might possibly be threatened as if their own work belonged to the people whom were helped in first place. This is nuts. The reason it always ends this way is because someone isn't looking to help others as they claim... they only help themselves. Are they here maybe to sell their products? Does AtariAge have to provide them a FREE space to advertise and sell their products? Does AA allow them to do so FREE of charge? The answer appears to be yes... Let Albert know if it's a good idea for this practice to continue for this particular group of individuals.

So sad...

I am sorry to have asked others to give permissions or to have asked persons to look the other way when things are produced, remade, or otherwise by this sales crew.. I think that practice now comes to an end. I will share my thoughts when asked by my former employees, work mates, fellow associated programmers, developers and their children. I don't get disgusted with people often, but in my opinion I find their practices detestable. This has become my opinion, and as such, it may carry some weight. I suggest you all do the same in your networks (circles).

 

I enjoy and love the members here at AtariAge, I will continue doing what I do for this member base. AtariAge has some of the best people on the planet.

Edited by _The Doctor__
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I don't get it... IMHO... if they don't like the people here and only wish to use their knowledge... don't share and always have bad things to say... why do they keep coming here? Must be they need help and want to make money... the only time they are here is when help is needed and when they help themselves, more like a one way street or blind alley.... and if someone helps with a project they can expect their ideas to be used with no return or mention of any kind. Later a person might possibly be threatened as if their own work belonged to the people whom were helped in first place. This is nuts. The reason it always ends this way is because someone isn't looking to help others as they claim... they only help themselves. Are they here maybe to sell their products? Does AtariAge have to provide them a FREE space to advertise and sell their products? Does AA allow them to do so FREE of charge? The answer appears to be yes... Let Albert know if it's a good idea for this practice to continue for this particular group of individuals.

So sad...

I am SHARING and remaining open about what I am doing with Deflate/Inflate. Not keeping any ideals on how to decrease the time it takes to deflate memory blocks a secret. I had to continue to discussion in the programming sub forum because things were getting too far off track. Using compression is allowing me to fit more games on a 16K cartridge that Video61 has many in stock and keeps the price down to $40 after markup. Cheaper to produce. If not, games will need to go onto bigger cartridges and may need to sale for $50 or more.

 

Compression did allow Venture to fit onto a 16K cartridge and dropped the price down to $40 with free shipping inside the United States. Even before Venture was released, I gave KJMANN warnings that this game probably won't sale very well at a higher price. I believe it did not excite people in the same way as Tempest Xtreme.

 

This current research about improving speed will benefit future games by making delays shorter and allowing room for more features.

Edited by peteym5

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Opinion follows..

Perhaps this perspective may help as to why I have taken this as I have. I have a sense of pride when it comes to Atari for a multitude of reasons. When an entity uses the Atari name in it's day to day operations and has a track record of delivering taped together, ill assembled, sloppy labeled, or worse buggy/flawed code and then says they will do nothing about it without a practical revolt, that damages the Atari name both for the past line as well as in the here and now. If the group would either provide the end user with items of quality, swap the prom (cost of shipping such is next to nothing), or allow the end user an image of the fixed code and let them burn the prom and repair it then I could feel different about it. I have not run into one other Atari vendor/distributor/developer/hobbyist that does not take those steps. Some people will worry omg less Atari stuff. It is my opinion that there will always be someone interested in making software and hardware for the old 8 bit, it's human nature. Most people want the best representation of themselves out there and Atari is no exception! Please don't force what should be a good thing to come to an end. I have heard both sides of an argument, and now deliberations as to what do and what not to do are taking place. The tempest is in a teapot for now, but it may escape the confines of it's porcelain prison. In my humblest of opinions it is better to attend to those deficiencies, and not to keep poking the bear. Most could care less about formats used in distribution. Customer service where a brand is involved just might be a concern. This is something in my opinion deserving of serious consideration.

Edited by _The Doctor__

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And this is related to Inflate/Deflate compression how? Which game titles of mine do you have? People keep saying Venture is buggy, but fail to specify the issue.

 

I proposed the ideal of using compression to make Venture fit onto a 16K cartridge back in February 2014, about 3 months after the 32K Williams Cartridge was out. I did this after reading the complaints about the labeling, shell not hold together, and price at $50. It was not making us look good. I wanted it replaced right away, but KJMANN12 wanted to wait until he can present it himself to the Portland Retro Gaming Expo in October '14. I wanted to give Video61 some time to sell off the ones he already made. I made the announcement on here shortly after. Only a small handful of the 32K Ventures got sold before being replaced with the Compressed 16K Atari Brown Shell. All done in response to what customers reported about Venture 32K.

 

We have been trying to rebuild our reputation after KJMANN stopped working with us. Lance has a different person doing labeling and putting cartridge boards together. As you can see, I am working on making inflate faster and better also.

Edited by peteym5

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Opinion follows..

Perhaps this perspective may help as to why I have taken this as I have. I have a sense of pride when it comes to Atari for a multitude of reasons. When an entity uses the Atari name in it's day to day operations and has a track record of delivering taped together, ill assembled, sloppy labeled, or worse buggy/flawed code and then says they will do nothing about it without a practical revolt, that damages the Atari name both for the past line as well as in the here and now. If the group would either provide the end user with items of quality, swap the prom (cost of shipping such is next to nothing), or allow the end user an image of the fixed code and let them burn the prom and repair it then I could feel different about it. I have not run into one other Atari vendor/distributor/developer/hobbyist that does not take those steps. Some people will worry omg less Atari stuff. It is my opinion that there will always be someone interested in making software and hardware for the old 8 bit, it's human nature. Most people want the best representation of themselves out there and Atari is no exception! Please don't force what should be a good thing to come to an end. I have heard both sides of an argument, and now deliberations as to what do and what not to do are taking place. The tempest is in a teapot for now, but it may escape the confines of it's porcelain prison. In my humblest of opinions it is better to attend to those deficiencies, and not to keep poking the bear. Most could care less about formats used in distribution. Customer service where a brand is involved just might be a concern. This is something in my opinion deserving of serious consideration.

i used to know jack, funny, he never mentioned you. i was involved in the very first homebrew, funny, i never heard anything about you. have you asked microsoft for their source codes to fix their software?

 

there were companies like sierra online that released carts with no labels, or on the wrong side of the cart, or epyx, where the cart shells did not hold the board into place right, and they became unusable, or atari themselves with the XEGS super carts, inside the shell, they used hot glue to help hold the board into place, many times the glue would fall off the board, and if you shake the cart, you can hear the loose hard glue rattling inside the cart.

 

or S.S.I., that used to sell their games in clear plastic baggies, with just a sticker on them.

 

i hope you never purchased a XE game from atari, you may not have been happy with all of the hard hot glue rattling around in the cart shell.

 

so if those big companies can make mistakes sometimes, and put out products that were not perfect, i guess a small fry like me is doing the best that we can.

 

so expecting your view of perfection in our imperfect world, This is something in my opinion deserving of serious consideration, that its not always possible.

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Geee, he never mentioned you either.... I guess neither of us were a topic of each others discussions... what a farcical thing to say... Why would we discuss any person such as yourself randomly in general conversation or otherwise? What a stretch.

 

On to things of a slightly more relevance....

 

Every one of those companies addressed their issues. Hot glue coming loose and rattling that affected almost nothing is totally different from cartridges that fall apart. You must like to set up straw men and knock them down. Things that happened once with this company or that... all of whom offered replacements of fixes. None of them attacking their customers... but offering solutions instead.

No one asked for your source code, yet another straw man. I think patch Tuesday shows that other company supplies fixes for their software as well, and on an ongoing basis. We all knew Jack, some don't know Jack, that amounts to Jack. What does your knowing anybody have to do with anything, more subterfuge, it has no bearing on what you are saying or doing. Once again I hear an implication of how big a person is and then in the same blurbs claim they are small fry. Not sure what the ramifications of zip top bags are suppose to be either.. many items sold in and still are sold in clear plastic bags today. If you are trying to degrade the works of others and say that makes doing worse just fine, then you are showing we can expect even less in the future. No one expects perfection, just a little caring. It's not only my opinion, but the opinion of others. It is also the opinion of a number of individuals the offerings have been sub par, and I value their opinions. You are offering only arguments and not service. And you call it Atari Sales and Service? We all tried to support you, sadly you make us sorry we did. There will be no more comment in this regard, it's all been said. I am sure you will have more to say, if it isn't to make it right, then I doubt anybody will be listening... or responding for that matter.

Edited by _The Doctor__
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Geee, he never mentioned you either.... I guess neither of us were a topic of each others discussions... what a farcical thing to say... Why would we discuss any person such as yourself randomly in general conversation or otherwise? What a stretch.

 

On to things of a slightly more relevance....

 

Every one of those companies addressed their issues. Hot glue coming loose and rattling that affected almost nothing is totally different from cartridges that fall apart. You must like to set up straw men and knock them down. Things that happened once with this company or that... all of whom offered replacements of fixes. None of them attacking their customers... but offering solutions instead.

No one asked for your source code, yet another straw man. I think patch Tuesday shows that other company supplies fixes for their software as well, and on an ongoing basis. We all knew Jack, some don't know Jack, that amounts to Jack. What does your knowing anybody have to do with anything, more subterfuge, it has no bearing on what you are saying or doing. Once again I hear an implication of how big a person is and then in the same blurbs claim they are small fry. Not sure what the ramifications of zip top bags are suppose to be either.. many items sold in and still are sold in clear plastic bags today. If you are trying to degrade the works of others and say that makes doing worse just fine, then you are showing we can expect even less in the future. No one expects perfection, just a little caring. It's not only my opinion, but the opinion of others. It is also the opinion of a number of individuals the offerings have been sub par, and I value their opinions. You are offering only arguments and not service. And you call it Atari Sales and Service? We all tried to support you, sadly you make us sorry we did. There will be no more comment in this regard, it's all been said. I am sure you will have more to say, if it isn't to make it right, then I doubt anybody will be listening... or responding for that matter.

seeing how you are keeper of the flame, i am just wondering what your role was back then?

 

but hole glue ratteling around did get a lot of questions from customers who thought it was solder. so much so, that atari had to send out letters to the vendors and dealers how to respond. epyx never took back their poorly designed cartridges who told you that? if so, i am other distributors would have known about it pronto.

 

or sierra online selling carts without labels, or on backwards. who told you that they addressed those problems, who? and who is attacking customers. do all companies today address bugs?

do all companies announce new upgrades that many times you have to pay for, that addresses bugs, or sometimes never even fixes those bugs?

 

regardless of who knew who, i want to know why you are the keeper of the flame. who made you the sole judge on whats acceptable in the atari world today? you do not like my stuff, that's your own business.

 

subpar stuff, you were never really in the real atari era, or you never really saw the stuff first hand.

 

i came out of the real atari era, in those days manufacturers sold games in ziplock baggies, clear plastic clamshells, sometimes you got documentation, sometimes not.

 

they made flippy disks, c-64 on one side, atari on the other. the atari side was usually the back side, and there was no label on it, sometimes the only docs were for the c-64, not for atari, yet you paid for the product because it was also for atari.

 

then there was datasoft, one of my favorite companies. their boxes were so thin and flimsy, that programs that had thick documentation, that the boxes would get crushed by the documentation, alternate the reality, and letter wizard were two that were really bad, if one or two people were to pick up the box to read it, just by putting the box back on the store shelf, the box would start to lose shape.

 

bruce lee and bismark boxes were so flimsy, that just the shrink wrap alone sucked the boxes till get looked crushed.

 

data soft even sold bismark without the box, it got so bad. they just shrink wrapped the disk and docs together, and sold it as is.

 

or colecovision with war games, box so flimsy, just touching it can dent it, like some of datasofts games.

 

but all through that era, atari users accepted this, and paid full price for many of the games.

 

but today its gotten so bad, from some that have fetishes over perfection, that i dare not sell them.

 

they have some sort of unrealistic fetish about the atari era, a era that was not what their fantasy imagined.

 

this tells me perhaps they were never in that era, or most of what they had was pirated, so they do not know what the stuff looked like in the first place.

 

yes many companies were first class sometimes, even S.S.I. sold games in ziplock baggies with a sticker on them.

 

atari themselves sold 2600 games, and some 8-bit stuff in drab dull gray boxes, with black lettering and very drab labels.

 

the documentation was on dull white paper, even the XEGS boxes were really good, but the documentation was almost always on white paper, no colors.

 

gentry software was another one, nice colorful boxes, but the boxes were so thin, that shrink wrapping them sucked them together, and the only thing keep them from collapsing, is the corners.

 

in the last decade or so, i have ran into many with perfection fetishes, that i dare not sell this stuff anymore, its most likely heading to the dumpsters. it was never that way before. most real atarians were familiar with that era, and understood, they were just happy to get it.

 

 

OBTW, i am still in business, making sales every day.

 

lance

www.atarisales.com

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