Coleco Games

[JustinMSalvato]

Gary Kitchen programmed 2600 Donkey Kong, and he was from the Activision family.

 

Did not know that. Thanks!

[NinjaWarrior]

Gary Kitchen programmed 2600 Donkey Kong, and he was from the Activision family. While I agree that upgrading to 8K, would have allowed for a third level as well as some additional tweaking & touch ups, I still stress that the game still looks & feels like Donkey Kong, as is.

 

The DK VCS is extremely impressive & does some graphically intense things. No doubt. But it feels to me more like a tech demo or an eye candy showcase, and less like I'm playing Donkey Kong as much as I'm watching it being played.

 

The scrolling is really what changes the entire feel of the game. I have always had mixed feelings about it. Something about it isn't right. Again, it's not Donkey Kong. Not to me.

 

Why was he only had 2K or 4K on the VCS to work with?

 

8K would be better

Edited April 26, 2017 by NinjaWarrior

[Supergun]

Back in the day, programmers were encouraged (sometimes forced) to be as conservative as possible with memory. The more memory needed, the larger the required rom. Memory was much more limited & far more expensive back then. So selling a million carts that utilized a 4K rom meant higher profits then if they housed an 8K rom inside.

[NinjaWarrior]

I get it now

 

Kinda like they did with Pac-Man

[Zonie]

It would be interesting if a hack came along with 8K and the remaining two levels, not changing anything else, including the back and forth foxfires...

[zzip]

I too had no real issues with the 2600 port of DK. It was pretty good! The Intellivision version was the worst. The console version we thought was the best was the colecovision (although the barrel level was a little backwards). The best one (hands down) available at home in that era was the C64 version. To our eyes it was just like the arcade.

The Atarisoft port of C64 DK? I don't care for that one. DK and Mario look too stretched and Mario moves so slow.

[Supergun]

It's been attempted before. Many demos & screenshots are around. The most difficult part has always been the elevators. Every programmer states that it is very difficult to have them all on screen & moving while everything else is going on.

 

Personally, I think the bouncing trampoline thing could simply be omitted. Not needed at all. But the moving platforms (elevators) are kind of what makes that level what it is. So it needs them.

 

I agree that a simple 8K hack (or enhancement) of the original program where 1 or 2 more levels are added, would suffice. Problem is, everyone always ends up getting fancy & they add this, remove that, change the other, etc.

[xybot67]

Speaking of Coleco games, I would have loved to see how the Tarzan game looked on the VCS. There was a manual made and apparently it was even presented at a CES show back in the day.

[zzip]

Back in the day, programmers were encouraged (sometimes forced) to be as conservative as possible with memory. The more memory needed, the larger the required rom. Memory was much more limited & far more expensive back then. So selling a million carts that utilized a 4K rom meant higher profits then if they housed an 8K rom inside.

What I don't understand though is 8K carts were being produced that year, why were some games allowed 8K, but the highest profile games at the time Pac-Man and Donkey Kong, were not? Why did Atari say it was OK to give Asteroids and the pointless Swordquest games 8K, but were stingy with Pacman? And Coleco gave 8K to Zaxxon and Smurfs but not DK, which definitely needed it?

 

I would think you would want the best for your highest profile license, no?

Edited April 26, 2017 by zzip

[Zonie]

The jacks in the elevators screen could just be a fast dropping object. It would flicker probably, but is probably easier to do than having it bounce across the top first.

[the_wizard_666]

What I don't understand though is 8K carts were being produced that year, why were some games allowed 8K, but the highest profile games at the time Pac-Man and Donkey Kong, were not? Why did Atari say it was OK to give Asteroids and the pointless Swordquest games 8K, but were stingy with Pacman? And Coleco gave 8K to Zaxxon and Smurfs but not DK, which definitely needed it?

 

I would think you would want the best for your highest profile license, no?

 

I'm guessing because Pac-Man and Donkey Kong are both licensed properties, and two of the hottest properties at the time. Atari and Coleco respectively probably paid more for the game license than they should've, which would make for a smaller development budget. Zaxxon is also a licensed game though, so it's a bit of an anomaly, but my guess is that the license didn't cost Coleco too much, leaving enough room in the budget to allow for the extra memory. This is purely speculation of course, but it makes sense to me

[matt2d2]

The Atarisoft port of C64 DK? I don't care for that one. DK and Mario look too stretched and Mario moves so slow.

 

If it's stretched, it's really not by much. I looked for video, and ones that are emulated can look stretched for sure. Here's one captured from an actual c64.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TBkOtDoaBs

 

The look of the levels, the graphics (even if slightly stretched) are way closer to the arcade than 2600, Intellivision or Colecovision either. Even the ocean version that came years later looked squashed, and the graphics were not as close to arcade.

 

Anyway, as I said, c64 Atarisoft one was the best at the time when DK was at it's peak and people were buying it on many systems.

[zzip]

I'm guessing because Pac-Man and Donkey Kong are both licensed properties, and two of the hottest properties at the time. Atari and Coleco respectively probably paid more for the game license than they should've, which would make for a smaller development budget. Zaxxon is also a licensed game though, so it's a bit of an anomaly, but my guess is that the license didn't cost Coleco too much, leaving enough room in the budget to allow for the extra memory. This is purely speculation of course, but it makes sense to me

Zaxxon license was probably not as expensive, but Smurfs were pretty hot at the time.

 

And Coleco didn't cut many corners on the Colecovision version-- but that comes back to the original speculation that the game was handicapped to help sell CVs. Maybe refusing 8K was Coleco execs way of ensuring the 2600 version wouldn't be good enough?

[zzip]

If it's stretched, it's really not by much. I looked for video, and ones that are emulated can look stretched for sure. Here's one captured from an actual c64.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TBkOtDoaBs

 

The look of the levels, the graphics (even if slightly stretched) are way closer to the arcade than 2600, Intellivision or Colecovision either. Even the ocean version that came years later looked squashed, and the graphics were not as close to arcade.

 

Anyway, as I said, c64 Atarisoft one was the best at the time when DK was at it's peak and people were buying it on many systems.

I prefer the Atari 8-bit Computer version to the Atarisoft C-64 version. Gameplay is smoother, and it's pretty true to the arcade as well. I heard the Ocean C-64 version was better, but I don't think I played that.

[+KaeruYojimbo]

What I don't understand though is 8K carts were being produced that year, why were some games allowed 8K, but the highest profile games at the time Pac-Man and Donkey Kong, were not? Why did Atari say it was OK to give Asteroids and the pointless Swordquest games 8K, but were stingy with Pacman? And Coleco gave 8K to Zaxxon and Smurfs but not DK, which definitely needed it?

 

I would think you would want the best for your highest profile license, no?

 

The problem with trying to understand management's thought process is that there usually isn't one.

 

the_wizard_666 is probably on the right track. Generally speaking, the only thing that matters to management is the bottom line. If they can make more profits by cheaping out, they'll do it. Although I'd say it has less to do with the cost of the licenses (which, in Coleco's case, they already owned since they'd been purchased to make games for their own console), than their expectations that games like Pac-Man and Donkey Kong would sell exponentially more copies than other games. If you can double the profit margin on a game that sells 5 million copies, that becomes a pretty big bonus at the end of the year.

 

And before you can say "But wouldn't it have sold even more copies if it had been a better game?" remember that this is management. They don't think like that. To them, as long as it says "Pac-Man" or "Donkey Kong" on the box, to them it's Pac-Man or Donkey Kong. None of them were familiar enough with the games to notice the difference, nor did they think the differences would matter to consumers.

 

Coleco didn't cut corners on the Coecovision version of DK because it was the flagship game for the console they were trying to sell. The 2600 version wasn't handicapped so much as it was an afterthought. A way to make some quick money with a license they already owned.

[+KaeruYojimbo]

Garry Kitchen talking about Donkey Kong, Keystone Kapers and Pressure Cooker

 

https://www.retrogamer.net/profiles/developer/garry-kitchen/

[Supergun]

There's one key answer to the questions here, Coleco themselves, in order to save money / cut costs, insisted upon & limited Gary to 4K. Period. End of that rumor.

[CDS Games]

It would be interesting if a hack came along with 8K and the remaining two levels, not changing anything else, including the back and forth foxfires...

 

I did just that a few years back. Still needs polishing but most of the basics are there:

 

http://atariage.com/forums/topic/229931-donkey-kong-2-lost-levels/

[CDS Games]

It's been attempted before. Many demos & screenshots are around. The most difficult part has always been the elevators. Every programmer states that it is very difficult to have them all on screen & moving while everything else is going on.

 

Personally, I think the bouncing trampoline thing could simply be omitted. Not needed at all. But the moving platforms (elevators) are kind of what makes that level what it is. So it needs them.

 

I agree that a simple 8K hack (or enhancement) of the original program where 1 or 2 more levels are added, would suffice. Problem is, everyone always ends up getting fancy & they add this, remove that, change the other, etc.

 

We're almost there actually. Batari made a very nice looking demo with moving elevators, but he didn't get a chance to finish the rest of the level. I finished the level but without any moving elevators. At post #32 of that thread I posted earlier, I started adding his elevator code in to my version. It might be a little tight getting everything in there, but it should be possible.

[NinjaWarrior]

Is the Game done? I play it on my Wii

[Supergun]

Impressive CDS. Most impressive.

And thanks to Nukey for helping out as well.

It's right there. Very close to done. I must have forgotten about this, because I already had the build on my Harmony cart. Must revisit this and give it some play later tonight.

[Zonie]

I just played it. Yeah this would have made DK on the 2600 the go to version for a while. The last post was in 2014. hope it gets finished soon. Kudos to all you guys who do this.

Edited April 28, 2017 by Zonie

[fluxit]

-snip-

Coleco didn't cut corners on the Coecovision version of DK because it was the flagship game for the console they were trying to sell.

 

I agree with your post except this statement. Sure, DK CV looks good, and the sound isn't bad, but the control is sloppy choppy. I'm no DK master, but I can do more than 20 screens on Crazy Kong or Donkey Kong, and DK CV is the only major console release version where I find myself unexpectedly falling off the end of girders. And then there is the nice bug where you can fall through either of the elevators. Frankly, while it wouldn't be my first choice of DK over all- I'd rather play 2600 Donkey Kong with its tight controls over DK CV any day. IMO, they cut corners on QA testing, especially when compared with other CV games which tend to have good controls IME.