XEL-CF Compact Flash Adapter for 1088XEL (formerly XEL-I3)

[+MacRorie]

 

 

I very much hope so! I ordered a kit from you and requested the f series chips. I haven't actually checked to make sure those were the the ones provided, I assumed I didn't need to. I'll check today!

 

 

If that is what you ordered, that is what you got. Did not realize you bought it from me.

[Mr Robot]

yep, all F series chips

 

[madness77]

@mytekHas anyone tried to install XEL-CF in a regular Atari XL/XE by retrieving all the necessary signals straight from the motherboard (or IC's pins)? Does @flashjazzcat BIOS for regular U1MB support CF cards?

[flashjazzcat]

31 minutes ago, madness77 said:

Does @flashjazzcat BIOS for regular U1MB support CF cards?

It does, since it drives the SIDE2 cartridge, which takes CF cards. The protocol for spinning disks and CF cards is identical anyway, with the exception that SIDE requires 8-bit PIO mode (since the data register is only 8 bits wide). That feature tends not to be present on spinning IDE hard disks, which would present an obstacle even if a 2.5" IDE HDD would fit into a Compact Flash slot.

 

As for fitting the XEL-CF inside of a regular Atari: this is almost guaranteed to work. I suggested to Mytek some time ago the idea of an XEL-CF adapter which connected to - say - the CPU socket, just as I suggested to Candle many years ago the idea of a SIDE ATA adapter which plugged into the CPU socket, but neither device yet exists.

[+mytek]

41 minutes ago, madness77 said:

@mytekHas anyone tried to install XEL-CF in a regular Atari XL/XE by retrieving all the necessary signals straight from the motherboard (or IC's pins)? Does @flashjazzcat BIOS for regular U1MB support CF cards?

I was working on a CPU piggyback, but it was based on an earlier version and soon became obsolete. Here is what that endeavor looked like...

 

 

 

I should probably revisit that project at some point.

 

[Bikerbob]

5 minutes ago, flashjazzcat said:

It does, since it drives the SIDE2 cartridge, which takes CF cards. The protocol for spinning disks and CF cards is identical anyway, with the exception that SIDE requires 8-bit PIO mode (since the data register is only 8 bits wide). That feature tends not to be present on spinning IDE hard disks, which would present an obstacle even if a 2.5" IDE HDD would fit into a Compact Flash slot.

 

As for fitting the XEL-CF inside of a regular Atari: this is almost guaranteed to work. I suggested to Mytek some time ago the idea of an XEL-CF adapter which connected to - say - the CPU socket, just as I suggested to Candle many years ago the idea of a SIDE ATA adapter which plugged into the CPU socket, but neither device yet exists.

on deaf ears eh flash... lol..  well one the great things about the 8-bit scene there are more than enough devices out there to get the job done at a pretty reasonable price, and still many people interested in making more devices, so maybe this is yet to come

 

James

[madness77]

21 minutes ago, mytek said:

I was working on a CPU piggyback, but it was based on an earlier version and soon became obsolete. Here is what that endeavor looked like...

 

@mytekSo it looks like all you have to do is replace the MPBI connector with a CPU socket and you're done? About 15 minutes of work at KiCad  

Edited October 28, 2019 by madness77

[+MacRorie]

2 hours ago, madness77 said:

@mytekHas anyone tried to install XEL-CF in a regular Atari XL/XE by retrieving all the necessary signals straight from the motherboard (or IC's pins)? Does @flashjazzcat BIOS for regular U1MB support CF cards?

Actually, I am in the process of making one that hangs off the PBI/ECI ports.  I have it laid out, just need to test and perfect it.  It should, in theory, work with any XL/XE with an Ultimate installed in it.

[+mytek]

1 hour ago, madness77 said:

@mytekSo it looks like all you have to do is replace the MPBI connector with a CPU socket and you're done? About 15 minutes of work at KiCad  

Not sure I follow. What I showed, was a board that was already designed to plug into the existing CPU socket, then plug the CPU (SALLY) on top. It already has an IDE44 header for direct connection to a CF adapter, and the logic required to decode the appropriate registers. Nothing else required.

 

Perhaps you are talking about converting the existing XEL-CF3 board with a MPBI header over to a 40 pin connector to plug into the CPU. That would indeed work from an electrical standpoint, but it would require considerable real estate and could be a challenge fitting it underneath the XE keyboard along with the U1MB which is also required. The approach I was taking used SMD for the logic, took advantage of the normally unused inner space of the 40 pin footprint. Not as DIY friendly, but using SOIC devices still makes it feasible to hand solder.

 

[flashjazzcat]

58 minutes ago, MacRorie said:

It should, in theory, work with any XL/XE with an Ultimate installed in it.

General note: users of XL/XE machines with standard SIDE-oriented U1MB firmware will need to change several things before it will work:

• Replace main BIOS plugin with XEL-CF plugin
• Replace SIDE Loader with XEL Loader
• Replace SIDE PBI BIOS with XEL-CF PBI BIOS

Pragmatically, one will not even need U1MB in order to use the hard disk; an SDX cart with a version of the SIDE.SYS driver targeting the XEL-CF hardware will allow SIDE-like functionality.

[+mytek]

40 minutes ago, flashjazzcat said:

Pragmatically, one will not even need U1MB in order to use the hard disk; an SDX cart with a version of the SIDE.SYS driver targeting the XEL-CF hardware will allow SIDE-like functionality.

I learn something new everyday .

[flashjazzcat]

40 minutes ago, mytek said:

I learn something new everyday

Yep. It's right on the toolkit disk:

 

 

I had a feeling it might be useful at some point in the future.

[madness77]

@flashjazzcat @mytek Thanks a lot, guys, for the answers!

 

I decided to face the subject, so I made a quick sketch at KiCad.

This is the effect:

 

 

I measured the board, it should fit 800XL. Of course, we can quickly replace the footprints of the elements with SMDs. 

 

The bars in the CPU socket can be cut the same way as in the MixSID project:

 

 

 

All right, I know that the circuit diagram still looks a little shitty, but as I wrote, it's just a quick sketch based on the Mytek schematic.

 

I'm asking you to check it out. If all connections are correct, I will start to route the paths.

 

Then, of course, I will also make all the source files available on the github.

 

Any constructive criticism is welcome

Edited October 29, 2019 by madness77

[+mytek]

I'm on my tablet for a while after being evacuated a couple of times because of the northern california fires, so my main PC is packed up for now. So long story short my tablet is not conducive to double checking schematics. Maybe tomorrow if I can get to my shop I can do that for you. However just looking over what you presented, I am impressed.

 

 

[madness77]

OKAY. Third approach to PCB. Previous board did not fit due to U29 chip height. Connections checked twice. In the previous diagram there is an error in CPU pinout. I did not find any more problems. But more eyes will look, the better.

 

Here is the version for Atari 800XL. I don't think it will interfere with any other extension (e.g. VBXE). In addition, I've derived signals for U1MB. Thanks to that you will not need to solder cables to CPU or vias.

 

I think the project is ready to send to the PCB factory and make the first prototype. BOM is identical to XEL-CF (+ DIL 40 precision socket, of course). If someone wants a bare board and try it, please write a private message.

 

 

 

The project will be on my github soon. Please tell me what you think.

 

 

[+mytek]

I'm liking the overall idea of what you are attempting, and it will bring 'HI SPEED' internal CF technology to all the A8s without tying up the cartridge port or the PBI. And unlike the early attempts like MyIDE, appears to be far more forgiving of what media can be used, even when compared to the modern SIDE2.

 

Since you were asking for feedback...

 

I see a stability problem with having the IDE header implemented in that manner. Seems like it would act like a lever, and very easily cause the board to dislodge from the CPU socket. It would probably be far better to keep it tucked in close to Sally, and there appears to be room to do so directly below it, or directly to the right. Then the U1MB header could be left-rotated 90 degrees and moved in closer with only a small leg required instead of the long one that you presently show for the IDE header.

 

Making these changes would also yield a more cost effective solution if a person choose to have the board manufactured by OSH Park, where board footprint is a great influencer to the price.

 

Examples

 

Test1 (3 boards from OSH Park $18.80)

 

Test2 (3 boards from OSH Park $20.35)

 

Edit: Although it's a bit more cost, the TEST2 example looks like a better fit for your situation.

 

[madness77]

@mytek Thanks a lot for your answer.

 

Test 1 - variant practically identical to my v0.2 approach

Unfortunately, I came to the conclusion that the IDE connector and bent signal tape just couldn't fit under the keyboard...

But maybe I am wrong. I am afraid of the problem with closing the case.

 

Test 2 - I tried a similar setting, which finally led me to pull out the IDE connector to its current location.

The reason was simply lack of space on the PCB to lead tracks (D0-D7 and others) to IDE and U1MB connectors.

The solution could be to add about 0.5 (bottom) and 1cm (right) margin around the board.

 

As for the cost: I love OSHPark for its simplicity and approach, but unfortunately their services are not the cheapest. My project was much more than $30 for 3pcs.

 

Well... try JLCPCB

 

 

 

I agree that a long arm can be a problem. But the precision pins are pretty tight in the sockets. (checking Sophia or Stereo modules)

To be sure, you can also put a plastic distance under the arm. 

 

An unquestionable advantage of such a setting is that there is no need to twist the signal tape to the CF card connector several times.

Now it can be straight and as short as possible. You could also consider using angle connectors and connect the CF socket directly, as in Amiga 600

 

 

But I think that the mutation of the Test 2 variant may still be worth considering, especially in XE.

Thanks again.

PM
 

 

[+mytek]

You could also try something like TEST1, but instead put the IDE header in the middle of the board (right of CPU, and left of the 2 remaining glue chips). This would get it farther away from the front edge of the keyboard, and thus provide more room.

 

That JLCPCB quote must be using the slow shipping option, which the last time I tried that it took 3 weeks. However on my last order with them I went with the DHL shipping option and got the boards in 4 days. Of course it cost a bit more . OSH Park is not fast when using their free international shipping option, but it rarely takes more than 2 weeks, and often I get things in about 10 days from them. So I find if you can keep the size of the board down so that the cost is below $20, OSH Park is pretty competitive. Well that is unless you are fine with waiting 3 weeks, then the Chinese fabricators can't be beat.

 

[Kyle22]

I may at some point be interested if this will fit both 800XL and 1200XL.

 

[madness77]

So... XE version:

 

[madness77]

Work in progress... I am waiting for the rest of the components and the first prototypes will be ready.

 

[tooloudtoowide]

guys, is anyone made list of cards working with CF3 in 1088xel? I'm a bit frustrated as only one card from my CFs works (PQI 256MB 40x). None of my Ultra series Sandisk cards (16/4/2GB 30MB/s), none of Kingstons. Some of them shows as unit in BIOS, but nothing on them (FAT16 formatted cards). None that works in my A800 Incognito, none that works in my SIDE2. Latest FJC firmware. I thought Incognito is card sensitive...

[+DrVenkman]

I have several Sandisk cards - currently two 16GB Ultra (silver label) and a very old 512MB black label that all work great. I used to have an 8GB Ultra silver label that worked as well but it was destroyed in a power supply accident that also destroyed one or more chips in my earlier XEL-CF-II board.

 

But all of Sandisk cards have always worked perfectly in my XEL-CF interfaces in both my 1088XEL and 1088XLD machines. 

[Mr Robot]

I have a couple of Sandisk Ultra's both 32GB. They work great individually, but I get all sorts of errors if I have them both inserted at the same time. 

 

Any sandisk card that is 30mb/s or less is apparently good if you want to use more than one card at a time

[flashjazzcat]

Dual CF cards are a hit and miss affair. I did some reading on this and manufacturers did not apparently envisage cards being used in pairs (although design perfunctorily follows ATA spec) and thus it's luck of the draw if you get it working. Nothing to be done about that. SD/CF adapters are worse again.

Edited December 11, 2019 by flashjazzcat