DavidMil Posted May 14, 2017 Share Posted May 14, 2017 How holding down the option button disables Basic in a 130XE? DavidMil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baktra Posted May 14, 2017 Share Posted May 14, 2017 When executing cold start code after power-up or cold start, the firmware of the computer checks if the OPTION key is pressed. If it is, then the firmware disconnects built-in BASIC ROM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baktra Posted May 14, 2017 Share Posted May 14, 2017 (edited) When executing cold start code after power-up or cold start, the firmware of the computer checks if the OPTION key is pressed. If it is, then the firmware disconnects built-in BASIC ROM. To amend my explanation if it is not clear - Disabling BASIC with OPTION key works only during power-up or cold start. The most reliable "technique" is the following: Press the OPTION key (and keep it pressed) Switch the computer on (or perform COLD START) Wait 2-3 seconds Release the OPTION key BASIC can be also disabled by any program by writing to PORTB + doing some housekeeping (adjusting RAMTOP, closing and opening the E: device). There are small utilities to do it that can be executed from DOS. Edited May 14, 2017 by baktra Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+DrVenkman Posted May 14, 2017 Share Posted May 14, 2017 You can also exit BASIC by typing BYE in immediate mode. Not terribly useful most of the time but there you go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rybags Posted May 14, 2017 Share Posted May 14, 2017 It is useful since you can just type B. and it saves doing a powerdown which is easier on the hardware. You can also get rid of Basic without coldstart by POKE 1016,1 then press Reset. But to be useful you need to have a Dos loaded otherwise it'll just coldstart. The holding of Option on powerup - you only need to do it until you hear the second click which is usually a fraction of a second before the blue text window appears. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidMil Posted May 15, 2017 Author Share Posted May 15, 2017 Actually I was looking for a deeper explanation. Does pressing Option at bootup physically shut off the Basic chip or is it a software disable. And if software; does it disable the chip by changing something in the Basic Chip or a RAM location? I know there are ways to turn Basic on and off with software, I was curious how the Option button did it. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted May 15, 2017 Share Posted May 15, 2017 The consol keys will be checked by software (OS) and I guess the Basic ROM gets physically mapped out of memory unreachable by CPU. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+tf_hh Posted May 15, 2017 Share Posted May 15, 2017 Actually I was looking for a deeper explanation. Does pressing Option at bootup physically shut off the Basic chip or is it a software disable. And if software; does it disable the chip by changing something in the Basic Chip or a RAM location? I know there are ways to turn Basic on and off with software, I was curious how the Option button did it. There isn´t any magic... Portbit B1 (Bit 1 of Port B, pin 11 of PIA 6520 chip) is connected to the MMU. The MMU manages memory, ROM, cartridge(s), internal basic and I/O access to the whole 64 KB address space. When this portbit is set to 0, the internal BASIC ROM is enabled. A "1" means "BASIC disabled". The MMU´s logic checks this portbit and decides to map normal memory (BASIC disabled) or the BASIC ROM in the area between $A000 and $BFFF. If a cartridge (at least 8 KB one) is inserted, then internal BASIC is always seen "disabled", not depending on the status of Portbit B1. The XL/XE O.S. just checks during coldstart if OPTION is held - if OPTION is held, the value 1 is written to address 1016 (decimal). Otherwise 1016 is set to zero. This value is used during every RESET (also warmstart) to set portbit B1 to 0 or 1... 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zzip Posted May 15, 2017 Share Posted May 15, 2017 (edited) How holding down the option button disables Basic in a 130XE? DavidMil Not sure if this you are asking for When the original Atari's released, Basic was on a cartridge. So Basic was on if you inserted the cart, but it occupied a portion of the memory map. If the cart wasn't there then the RAM area that it occupied could be used for programs (on a 48K system) Later, every competitor touted "built-in Basic" as a sales feature. With the XL line, Atari followed suite. But for backwards compatibility, many software was written that assumed no Basic cart was present. Atari couldn't rely on the software developers to update existing programs to disable Basic in software, but they needed a way to disable it. 'holding down option' was cheaper than adding a new Basic switch, so presumably that's why Edited May 15, 2017 by zzip 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rybags Posted May 15, 2017 Share Posted May 15, 2017 The memory banking for the most part is a cycle by cycle affair - you can change PORTB bits for Basic, the OS, Self Test, 130XE Ram banking options and it's instant. Basic presence is usually overridden by cartridge though, but modern bankable cartridges can sometimes be disabled themselves with bankswitching so it opens up new options there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baktra Posted May 15, 2017 Share Posted May 15, 2017 Not sure if this you are asking forWhen the original Atari's released, Basic was on a cartridge. So Basic was on if you inserted the cart, but it occupied a portion of the memory map. If the cart wasn't there then the RAM area that it occupied could be used for programs (on a 48K system)Later, every competitor touted "built-in Basic" as a sales feature. With the XL line, Atari followed suite. But for backwards compatibility, many software was written that assumed no Basic cart was present. Atari couldn't rely on the software developers to update existing programs to disable Basic in software, but they needed a way to disable it. 'holding down option' was cheaper than adding a new Basic switch, so presumably that's why Not only cheaper, but also practical - BASIC can be disabled by software. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zzip Posted May 15, 2017 Share Posted May 15, 2017 Not only cheaper, but also practical - BASIC can be disabled by software. Yes it can, didn't mean to imply otherwise, but as I said so much software was already written that didn't disable basic. I think even after the XL, not many apps/games forced disabling of Basic. A few did though. So unlike the C64 which always booted to BASIC and used that as it's loader, Atari had to deal with the "Sometimes required/Sometimes required to be absent" nature of its BASIC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted May 15, 2017 Share Posted May 15, 2017 (edited) I'll take the Atari loading times, methods and flexibility across the 8 bit range as a whole over the commie method(s) anyday... Edited May 15, 2017 by _The Doctor__ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baktra Posted May 15, 2017 Share Posted May 15, 2017 I'll take the Atari loading times, methods and flexibility across the 8 bit range as a whole over the commie method(s) anyday... I would too, except loading from cassette. C64 allowed reasonable transfer speeds without hardware changes of the data recorder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zzip Posted May 15, 2017 Share Posted May 15, 2017 I'll take the Atari loading times, methods and flexibility across the 8 bit range as a whole over the commie method(s) anyday... I don't think the C64's slow disk loads and lack of disk autoboot have anything to do with its built-in Basic though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted May 15, 2017 Share Posted May 15, 2017 (edited) To be honest I didn't see any reason to have brought the commodore into the conversation.... but it was sooo... I think having gone to the length you have, since your using basic as the loader in the commie they could have made it search the drive for an autoboot. but maybe that wasn't done for some reason (polling?timeout?some other memory constraint?).... You can use basic in Atari to load binaries also... as you might have guessed.... Taking basic out completely gives the Atari more memory space... and as pointed out if coded to do so can be turned off by software or by the user pressing the option key to toggle it or can be poked in basic.. a multitude of ways to do so... There are games that play weather basic is on or off btw....it also comes down to where the program resides... some games want to make sure no cartridge or other device/os mods are in memory for copy protection purposes as well.... I kind of liked the cassette drive of the Adam for it's speed and access.. to bad the actual mechanism was of low build quality but it was better in many respects than the commie or the Atari... and back to Basic... some of the os selections out there reverse the behaviour of the option key which is good also... or if you are using SPARTADOS X, or MyBios, You can select basic at will.... and for that matter there was a file to do so under other dos as well.. not an issue either way... Edited May 15, 2017 by _The Doctor__ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baktra Posted May 15, 2017 Share Posted May 15, 2017 LOAD "*",8,1 loaded the first file on the disk - a sort of autoboot in Commodore BASIC. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+CharlieChaplin Posted May 15, 2017 Share Posted May 15, 2017 (edited) Hmmmm, it looks like there is more than one way to disable Basic on an Atari XL/XE computer: a) via keypress (std. OS) - holding down Option while booting b) via on/off switch - turn switch to Basic off c) via alt. OS - inverted Basic, no keypress=Basic off (instead: hold down Option to enable Basic) d) via software: Basic off ML-routine (55 bytes?) by Bill Wilkinson, as released in Compute! magazine e) via software: Poke 1016,1 then Reset etc. And now a short novel... When collecting programs for the Abbuc software contest and finally copying them onto the diskette I always try to use as few diskspace as possible, thus packing/compressing the ML-files. And every time I add the Basic-off routine by Bill Wilkinson to the ML-files, so the users do not need to hold down Option, when loading them. When adding this Basic-off routine to my personal programs (e.g. tools/utilities), I often wondered, why some of them displayed garbage, while they did not show garbage when holding down Option. Last year I also noticed this effect with two ASC programs, namely ROT and DYE but evil as I am, I did overcome this effect, by simply copying both programs on a MyPicoDOS/gamedos diskette. (Evil, because these programs, especially ROT could save highscores under DOS; but with DOS the garbage appeared...). We were in such a hurry, that I did not have the time to contact the authors and ask them why. Think after the contest I mailed the authors and asked them, why this was happening and they could not tell, since the garbage did not appear on their computers. But as always, we did use different loading schemes, without noticing, they booted with Option (hardware-switch) and everything was fine, while I booted with the Basic-off routine (software-switch) and garbage appeared. After some time I contacted Fandal and he told me, the software-switch / Basic-off routine switched off Basic, yes, but it did NOT clear the RAM under Basic and thats why DYE showed garbage, furthermore it did not clear RAM under Basic and it also did not clear the zeropage, thats why ROT showed garbage. And since I am not a fan of alternative OS or holding down the Option key, Fandal therefore created me two new Basic-off routines, that do a) switch off Basic + clear RAM under Basic and b) switch off Basic + clear Ram under Basic + clear zeropage. These are the routines I use from now on, until I (maybe) find another ML-file that does something unusual that is not happening when holding down the Option key - if so, i will contact Fandal again to explain the mystery and solve the problem with a small routine for me... My conclusion: - holding down the Option key: switches off Basic, clears RAM under Basic, clears zeropage (maybe even more things)... - (original) Basic-off routine by Bill Wilkinson: switches off Basic, does NOT clear RAM under Basic, does NOT clear zeropage (and maybe even more things)... - no clue about hardware-switches, e.g. alt. OS, on/off switch and other hardware things, but I guess they behave like the Option key - no clue about other software-switches, but I guess most of them behave like the Basic-off routine by B.Wilkinson Please correct me, if my assumptions here are wrong/false/unprecise (and I guess they are)... Edited May 15, 2017 by CharlieChaplin 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted May 15, 2017 Share Posted May 15, 2017 lol, using the wild card is not auto boot... typing all that junk out all the time isn't autoboot either... and again it has nothing to do with the Atari.. which is what the whole thread is about...... @ Chaplin nice synopsis, just add for completeness that the 1200XL and 800/400 to remove basic from cartridge slot....or in their case also simply don't load basic from disk whether it be Atari or Microsoft basic..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marius Posted May 16, 2017 Share Posted May 16, 2017 (edited) Do not believe these guys!!!! They try you to believe things about bits. But it is fake news! Inside your atari 8bit computer lives a dwarf. Anytime the atari is switched on and the option is held you actually pinch the dwarf and he is so mad that he pulls the basic chip. It's pretty ugly... I have seen it... been there... it's true. Edited May 16, 2017 by ProWizard 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baktra Posted May 16, 2017 Share Posted May 16, 2017 Do not believe these guys!!!! They try you to believe things about bits. But it is fake news! Inside your atari 8bit computer lives a dwarf. Anytime the atari is switched on and the option is held you actually pinch the dwarf and he is so mad that he pulls the basic chip. It's pretty ugly... I have seen it... been there... it's true. If I remember correctly, some of the 3DFX Voodoo graphics cards had a relay that switched output from the 2D video card to 3D. It produced very audible click. Perhaps something we can install to our machines. The OPTION key is so boring.... Or what about a robotic arm that would remove BASIC cartridge on 400/800 after pressing OPTION. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zzip Posted May 16, 2017 Share Posted May 16, 2017 I think having gone to the length you have, since your using basic as the loader in the commie they could have made it search the drive for an autoboot. but maybe that wasn't done for some reason (polling?timeout?some other memory constraint?).... If I were to guess, probably due to Tramiel corner cutting and rushing to market. The Atari ST didn't have the ability to autoboot GEM apps at first either, only non-GEM programs. Some of the third-party C64 fastload carts added autobooting as a feature. If they could do it, I'm sure it could have been done in the OS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rybags Posted May 16, 2017 Share Posted May 16, 2017 Attempt a load on 1541 without a disk in the drive to get part of your answer. Though if they'd bothered with a bootable system they probably would have had some sort of media or latch down sense in the drive. The concept of autoboot at the time was more an enterprise system type of thing. Most home computers didn't boot, some allowed a hotkey boot. And similarly the enterprise philosophy was no built in Basic which Atari also followed. So really, the games machine image wasn't correct, if anything Atari was closer to a business machine than most of the competition - only it didn't have the software to complete the image. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zzip Posted May 16, 2017 Share Posted May 16, 2017 Attempt a load on 1541 without a disk in the drive to get part of your answer. Though if they'd bothered with a bootable system they probably would have had some sort of media or latch down sense in the drive. The concept of autoboot at the time was more an enterprise system type of thing. Most home computers didn't boot, some allowed a hotkey boot. And similarly the enterprise philosophy was no built in Basic which Atari also followed. So really, the games machine image wasn't correct, if anything Atari was closer to a business machine than most of the competition - only it didn't have the software to complete the image. I believe Apple II autobooted as well. Can't speak for CoCo, TI-99/4a, ZX Spectrum, etc. But I'd be surprised if none of them had it. "User Friendly" was a marketing buzzword at the time, and autobooting is more user friendly than typing in commands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted May 16, 2017 Share Posted May 16, 2017 (edited) To be honest the Apple was at least good in the respect of it's early days with hardware firmware upgrades.. fully sanctioned by Apple.... it was till later the locked in you can't touch it model appeared.... SO Atari, Amiga,old Apple II, lynux/cpm based, droid, then windows is my pecking order of preference.. and some of that is just because of necessity... I have a more modern Apple product or two cause I got em for free or super cheap... any how Having had them all I still stick with the ole Atari 8, just remember to feed the dawarf for chip changes! Edited May 16, 2017 by _The Doctor__ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Like us on Facebook
Follow us on Twitter
AtariAge on Instagram
Watch us on YouTube
Chat on Discord
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.