Coleco strong-arming homebrew publishers and fan sites

[PikoInteractive]

Dos Muchachos, Un Coleco

 

 

(give yourself a pat on the back and a caramel filled churro if you got that one)

I loled Thanks for the churro.

[Cav]

Ha. Now they are promoting a competing Atari website/forum on the Coleco FB page. That'll show you, Albert!!! That'll show all of you!!

[enoofu]

Ha. Now they are promoting a competing Atari website/forum on the Coleco FB page. That'll show you, Albert!!! That'll show all of you!!

Most of those peeps are members here also, lol

 

Well, in my world that's pretty much on the edge. IMO we should not align with other people's low levels.

Just for people curiosity since she asked Albert to take down this thread, and to understand her role in the company

[TheClassyGamer]

 

Chris,

 

I'm trying to be as impartial as I can be here. I am neither a Colecovision developer nor do I own one at this moment (much as I miss it) and only play games through emulators these days. One day I may get back into collecting. But that is neither here nor there.

 

You seem to spend a great deal of time dancing around the meat of the issues here, getting bogged down in the personal attacks (which I will address a bit later) without actually addressing the biggest issues here. To whit:

 

- You made TOS violation claims against images of games on the FB fan page. This was just wrong. Period. End of story. Holding your retractions for ransom pending agreement to any terms whatsoever is dumb. You were in the wrong here, and regardless of anything else, you should retract them wholesale and without reservation or qualification. Full stop. This issue is separate and unrelated to anything else. Colecovision Fan has no stake in anything posted there, and you have no say in what gets posted there. If you mistakenly thought otherwise, that's on you, but the absolute moment you were shown to be incorrect in your assumptions or the information you were given, you should have retracted your claims in their entirety.

 

- You want to control what software gets released for the ColecoVision. You can't. Full stop. That is not within your purview whatsoever. Stop trying. If you have a problem with unlicensed ports, take that up with the developers or report them to the IP holders whose copyrights and/or trademarks they violated. But unless they are violating Coleco's IP (and to the best of my knowledge Coleco Holdings do not have the rights to any of the original Coleco IP) or trademarks (where you likely do, in fact, have some say) then you have no standing to take any legal action yourself.

 

- You want to control what software gets publicized by forums, blogs, and fan sites. You can't. Full stop. See above. If you want editorial control, start your own site.

 

- You want to control what people say about you and Coleco/Coleco Holdings/RWB and where. You can't. Full stop. Unless it legally qualifies as slander or libel (and there is a very specific definition for each here), then you have no right to ask anyone to retract or take down anything said about you or Coleco/Coleco Holdings/RWB. You can ask, but nobody has to comply, and in the asking is the risk of damage to your brand's reputation. Clearly we're past that now, however.

 

- You want to control who uses the Coleco and ColecoVision logos. That, at least, is within your right, presuming your trademarks are legit, but only within the scope of protecting your trademark's specific third-party usage (its font and style) as it pertains to the potential for causing confusion in the marketplace and who gets to license its official use and under what terms. These are your only bargaining chips, and you seem to feel they give you more power to do more things than they do. Protect your trademark in ways the law says you should using common sense (go after the actual people directly responsible for infringement, not those giving them airtime). Give licenses to those you wish and dictate the terms of its use. Try to do anything outside of these and you're just stepping on your own dick -- and by what's happened up to this point, your dick has seen more foot traffic than Times Square. (Note: This is a quasi-humorous metaphor that's probably only funny to me, not a personal attack. For some reason I feel the need to spell out that I don't literally think your genitals are a busy trestle bridge.)

 

- You associate with someone who is known to the very community you hope to eventually market things to, to be a complete scammer. This is bad for your image. And don't try and deflect by accusing others of being guilty of associating with those who are similarly "bad" -- this is nothing to do with them. This is about you and the brand you represent. Like it or not, a brand is only as good as the people behind it, even those who are not on the payroll. This reflects on your brand. Keep that in mind.

 

- You make all of this personal. Don't. You're representing a brand. For God's sake, man, act like an adult professional. Ignore the personal attacks. Address issues about the brand in a professional, level-headed manner. Everything else is just noise that is irrelevant to the brand.

 

- You play the victim. Nobody has victimized you except maybe use the Coleco and ColecoVision logos where they were not licensed to do so. That is, and should always be, the beginning, middle, and end of your issue here, and they should be taken up with the parties directly involved. Full stop. Any damage done to the Coleco brand as it exists today was instigated by you. It all started with you. You are not the victim.

 

I think you owe CVF some retractions and at least a few people an apology.

 

Everyone else,

 

Ad hominems, physical threats (however hyperbolic or indirect), parody, and such are cathartic -- I get it. It's fun. It's entertaining. Bit it's not helping. Given Chris' behaviour, we should be holding ourselves to higher standards than that, at least while the issue is ongoing. Let's be the bigger people here. I know we've tried to be, and Chris hasn't exactly done anything to raise the level if discourse here in an effort to help make a bad situation better. But I think -- and I know this is going to be a terribly unpopular opinion -- that some few here owe Chris an apology, at least for accusing him of illegally selling bootlegs where he's explained that what he was doing was legit. Yes, Chris has been in the wrong here on numerous fronts, and he needs to address that if he wants to have any hope in hell of salvaging any shreds of his brand's reputation, but not everyone here has been in the right, either.

 

I love this community - the CV community and AA at large. I've been hanging around these forums for a long-ass time, though I haven't been around here for the past number of years for having dropped out of collecting. Still, I hate to see shit like this crop up when it really, really didn't need to get this bad. Yes, Chris started it, and frankly, Chris needs to be the one to finish it, hopefully without taking a weed whacker to the remaining shreds of Coleco's rep, but some here also need to big it up and offer an apology for false accusations and personal attacks as well. We're better than that. We've been here long before he was, and we'll be here long after he's gone. But if this is to go away without leaving too much lingering anger and frustration, those in the wrong need to own it and apologise for it and move on. Chris can go and do whatever it is Chris is supposed to be doing, and we can go back to enjoying the hell out of the wicked-awesome things being done for long-dead systems that we love keeping alive for our own pleasure.

 

 

 

Just because he gives an explanation on the bootleg figures, doesn't in any make it the truth. I will issue an apology if it turns out these are made legit with the blessing of Hasbro, but as it stands I don't see any evidence that they are, just the word of someone who has already proven to have poor moral character and be dishonest. At this point why should we believe his explanation on that?

 

What little dealings I've had with Hasbro makes me think that the statement he gave is mostly true with a good old fashioned lie in it.

 

Because, I do know that Hasbro, does approve of and does believe that it is good for the community for consumers to create their own original figures and customize their figures, but recasting of existing figures and selling them does not make them custom figures, even if you are using different parts from different figures. Using original product molds to make new castings of figures you don't have the rights to is bootlegging, even if you customize them.

 

The difference here is Hasbro is supporting you buying their figures and using those as a base for your customization, or sculpting your own original parts, or doing your own home recasting of PARTS to make your own personal figure, for your own personal use and not for resale.

 

It's like this, I'll put it in video game terms.

 

If I found some Amiibo that were owned by Nintendo, and decided to cast up my own figures, they would be bootleg. They would be bootleg even if I changed the colors. They would be bootleg even if I cut them up and glued them together with different arms and heads.

 

As a person who has been dealing with Chinese factories for years and had my own products made over there I can provide this little tidbit of info.

 

If it is made in China it is going to be bootlegged. The molds you own, you only think you own. When they make your run of stuff, they make a shit load extra and sell it as well. If you are a small time guy, your molds will get LOST, and yet you will see your product still getting made. If you are a big time guy who has the power to come get your shit and do something legally if they get lost, then your stuff is being recast for copies, so that they can be made when you take back your molds.

 

What I would think happened here, is when Hasbro told whatever company was doing their casting to destroy the molds, they just kept them and or sold them a few times to different people wanting to crank out bootleg figures.

 

It's a great scam, you track down where something was made and sometimes they still have the molds. They won't make the product unless you buy the molds, but they still own them, either it goes that way or you have to drop a lot of cash for a big production run up front. So, then someone wants to make the same shit, well they sell them the same molds too, and repeat. There are a lot of tiny game companies, and a few larger ones that learned the hard way that if you're not a big business you loose when you do business in China. I've seen several small companies have shut down or end up getting bought out by the company doing their casting. (Because they held back on the product being made until the company was in trouble, and kindly stepped up with some cash to help them out, while they worked out getting their product made), I've had and seen people get their orders pushed back in the que because a bigger company wanted something done and that was worth more money, even though you've already paid and have customers waiting. The list goes on and on.

 

The bottom line, having looked up those figures on line and chatted with Hasbro, I see no proof that they are being allowed to be made. Firstly, the ones that were lazily cranked out with still having all the company branding on them are unquestionable bootlegs. Secondly, anything made in a mold that was previously owned by Hasbro is unquestionable a bootleg, Thirdly, anything that is identical to any part of any figure the previously released is bootleg, this includes having created your own molds based off using one of their figures for a master.

 

When something from Hasbro, proven to be from Hasbro, is shown that addresses these specific castings as being acceptable fair fan usage, then I'll happily apologize.

Edited June 6, 2017 by TheClassyGamer

[NIAD]

Here's my take...

 

- DO NOT lock this thread... for reasons that I am sure are obvious to everyone.

- DO NOT ban Chris Cardillo... for reasons thst I am sure are obvious to everyone.

- All this publicity is actually good for R.W.B., Coleco Holdings, LLC, Chris Cardillo, the Coleco Expo, etc., etc., etc. The only dead brand is a brand that is not being talked about and lord knows that is not the case and will not be the case for a long time now. This "battle" is being reported on all over the Internet.

- All this publicity is actually good for the ColecoVision Community and the Homebrewers. Yes, it is! People are realizing what a great community we have here and the tremendous Homebrewers that are keeping our ColecoVisions and Adam Computers alive 32 year after the real Coleco dropped these great systems like a bad cold.

 

The only thing that I can't wrap my head around is when this thread started we were only 80,000 some odd posts behind the Intellivision Forum and now we have fallen even further behind them. It just doesn't make any sense to me how they can still be widening the margin with all this stuff going on in the CV & Adam Forum.

 

Man, I gotta give it up to Rev and all the other Intellivision Forum members!

 

BTW, where is bennybingo? We need him badly to join in on this thread to keep it real!

Edited June 6, 2017 by NIAD

[Northcoastgamer]

Here's an interesting and amusing read, though I feel bad for the home owners. https://www.pissedconsumer.com/castle-windows/reviews/RT-FP.html

[Flojomojo]

CC posted an MLK quote. Here's one that I think is a lot more appropriate:

 

In the End, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends.

 

 

I'm glad the retro community has come together to speak out against bad behavior.

 

Albert's comments really said it well.

[Flojomojo]

Here's an interesting and amusing read, though I feel bad for the home owners. https://www.pissedconsumer.com/castle-windows/reviews/RT-FP.html

Quiet, you ... we want Cardillo to quit Coleco and go back to selling windows* full time, please

 

*and rapping at polo clubs, and hoarding gi joe dolls, and whatever

[CopterCommando]

I am also from NJ, am known at most stores in the state as the "Colecovision guy" (they usualy don't have many customers looking for that stuff, not claiming myself an authority or anything, just a HUGE fan, possibly the biggest in NJ ha), and this whole thing has just left a major bad taste in my mouth. I was SO excited about the convention prior to all of this, Cardillo has seriously ruined this for me (along with fb influx of people who don't actually own the Colecovision but want to post endlessly in all the groups/pages on there about they used to have one or always wanted one, etc.-personal gripe). I will continue to support all homebrewers in all of their endeavors, I will continue to buy second hand games when they are affordable for me (I have most of the commons by now and am just after rarities generally), once you guys come out with the new console I might even sell my Colecovision if I like the new one better, otherwise I am finished with Coleco. The only thing you accomplished with the flashback was making me go buy a real one because the flashback was horribly made (joysticks pop off the controllers?), and you had a seriously BOBO game selection on there, I've even talked friends of mine out of buying it, telling them to get a real Colecovision instead, or get the Intellivision one instead because at they made a bit of an effort with that one to make it as close to the original console as possible. You're a disappointment to us all Mr. Cardillo......

[Chuck D. Head]

Quiet, you ... we want Cardillo to quit Coleco and go back to selling windows* full time, please

 

*and rapping at polo clubs, and hoarding gi joe dolls, and whatever

 

From one of the reviews; the salesman was "creepy and unprofessional".

[TPR]

Here's my take...

All this publicity is actually good for R.W.B., Coleco Holdings, LLC, Chris Cardillo, the Coleco Expo, etc., etc., etc. The only dead brand is a brand that is not being talked about and lord knows that is not the case and will not be the case for a long time now. This "battle" is being reported on all over the Internet.

 

I normally am one to say that "any publicity is good publicity" but in the case where the company has managed to alienate pretty much everyone who would support them, that is probably not the best scenario.

 

Although you have to give Chris Cardillo credit... Did you ever think you'd be able to witness someone completely self destruct so much and so quickly in such a short amount of time? Even the Mike Kennedy situation took a couple of months

[Mindfield]

 

 

Just because he gives an explanation on the bootleg figures, doesn't in any make it the truth. I will issue an apology if it turns out these are made legit with the blessing of Hasbro, but as it stands I don't see any evidence that they are, just the word of someone who has already proven to have poor moral character and be dishonest. At this point why should we believe his explanation on that?

 

What little dealings I've had with Hasbro makes me think that the statement he gave is mostly true with a good old fashioned lie in it.

 

Because, I do know that Hasbro, does approve of and does believe that it is good for the community for consumers to create their own original figures and customize their figures, but recasting of existing figures and selling them does not make them custom figures, even if you are using different parts from different figures. Using original product molds to make new castings of figures you don't have the rights to is bootlegging, even if you customize them.

 

The difference here is Hasbro is supporting you buying their figures and using those as a base for your customization, or sculpting your own original parts, or doing your own home recasting of PARTS to make your own personal figure, for your own personal use and not for resale.

 

It's like this, I'll put it in video game terms.

 

If I found some Amiibo that were owned by Nintendo, and decided to cast up my own figures, they would be bootleg. They would be bootleg even if I changed the colors. They would be bootleg even if I cut them up and glued them together with different arms and heads.

 

As a person who has been dealing with Chinese factories for years and had my own products made over there I can provide this little tidbit of info.

 

If it is made in China it is going to be bootlegged. The molds you own, you only think you own. When they make your run of stuff, they make a shit load extra and sell it as well. If you are a small time guy, your molds will get LOST, and yet you will see your product still getting made. If you are a big time guy who has the power to come get your shit and do something legally if they get lost, then your stuff is being recast for copies, so that they can be made when you take back your molds.

 

What I would think happened here, is when Hasbro told whatever company was doing their casting to destroy the molds, they just kept them and or sold them a few times to different people wanting to crank out bootleg figures.

 

It's a great scam, you track down where something was made and sometimes they still have the molds. They won't make the product unless you buy the molds, but they still own them, either it goes that way or you have to drop a lot of cash for a big production run up front. So, then someone wants to make the same shit, well they sell them the same molds too, and repeat. There are a lot of tiny game companies, and a few larger ones that learned the hard way that if you're not a big business you loose when you do business in China. I've seen several small companies have shut down or end up getting bought out by the company doing their casting. (Because they held back on the product being made until the company was in trouble, and kindly stepped up with some cash to help them out, while they worked out getting their product made), I've had and seen people get their orders pushed back in the que because a bigger company wanted something done and that was worth more money, even though you've already paid and have customers waiting. The list goes on and on.

 

The bottom line, having looked up those figures on line and chatted with Hasbro, I see no proof that they are being allowed to be made. Firstly, the ones that were lazily cranked out with still having all the company branding on them are unquestionable bootlegs. Secondly, anything made in a mold that was previously owned by Hasbro is unquestionable a bootleg, Thirdly, anything that is identical to any part of any figure the previously released is bootleg, this includes having created your own molds based off using one of their figures for a master.

 

When something from Hasbro, proven to be from Hasbro, is shown that addresses these specific castings as being acceptable fair fan usage, then I'll happily apologize.

 

Fair enough. I'm sure it's possible to obtain some proof of this. But I think the larger point here is that we shouldn't likewise be making accusations without our own proof to refute his. By all means ask -- Chris, or a more reliable source -- but if we flat out make the assertion without the evidence to back it up, then we're not really being any better than he is.

[Flojomojo]

Although you have to give Chris Cardillo credit... Did you ever think you'd be able to witness someone completely self destruct so much and so quickly in such a short amount of time? Even the Mike Kennedy situation took a couple of months

That's because it was a different situation.

 

Mike Kennedy/RetroVGS/Coleco Chameleon was a big promise that never came true, and was only revealed to be a big lie over a long time, after many failed attempts at collecting money and showing product. He was changing the team, covering up inconvenient questions, changing the specs, and evading scrutiny the whole time.

 

Cardillo/Coleco never had a product, or even a promise. He led with the offensive action up front (bogus copyright strike), followed by obnoxious attempts at deal-making and playing the victim.

 

Maybe it's a cultural difference between California and New Jersey.

 

[ValkerieSilk]

If it comes down to a vote of moderators, I'm voting for a ban. If there's one thing I can't stand, it's bullies doubling down and then claiming that they're being victimised. There's no resolution to this one folks. I would also lock this tread from further responses.

 

https://youtu.be/QkQP5P_bEtM

[Swami]

Does Chris hit the bottle or the pipe before he posts .... that grammar is atrocious for a business man.

I'm trying to go cold turkey on posting on this thread, but I just had to say, you don't know how many times I resisted replying to cardo1's posts simply with a dumb-founded "Are you high?".

 

Also, I'd like to thank Al for his post. Very well said.

[ColecoJoe]

I'm trying to go cold turkey on this thread, but I just had to say, you don't know how many times I resisted replying to cardo1's posts simply with a dumb-founded "Are you high?".

 

Also, I'd like to thank Al for his post. Very well said.

 

 

Yeah I think this thread should have been locked after Al's post.

[TPR]

Yeah I think this thread should have been locked after Al's post.

 

You mean without giving Chris Cardillo and his "representative" a chance to respond? It's only going to get better!

[Dauber]

Man, I don't have a single bone in this argument, and I've never owned a ColecoVision or Adam in my life (although I'm seriously considering Project Prometheus -- hope that doesn't turn into vaporware!), but...all this garbage is yet another reason I left the Jersey shore eleven years ago.

[H.E.R.O.]

Can always remove some letters & call it C-Vision with the same font type.

[Keatah]

Talking about soap opera, here is some. Man, it was an emotional rollercoaster all the way through. I laughed, then I felt really embarrassed for the poor girls. Quite a gamut of emotions in such a short video.

Btw, hope the girls got paid...

That fake vintage VCR static is lousy for one. And, two, are there any new games being shown? Ones that have been developed by RWB themselves?

[opcode]

Can always remove some letters & call it C-Vision with the same font type.

 

We are calling it OpcodeVision, then there is CollectorVision. Plenty of visions, all is good.

[Schizophretard]

You know what Chris? If Barney the dinosaur was still alive, I could probably have him as my primary care physician. I could go to him when I'm not feeling well, when I find a lump where it doesn't belong, when I want to have a physical done...you get the gist.

But you know what Chris? I wouldn't have Barney the dinosaur as my primary care physician, and do you know why that is Chris?

Because Barney the dinosaur was a dick Chris, a big, freaking dick. He did bad things Chris, really bad things. Probably not a good idea for me to be anywhere near him.

You want to know why its probably not a good idea to be anywhere near him Chris? Because people tend to judge you by the company you keep. That's why Chris.

And if you haven't learned this yet in life, well, I can't freakin' teach you. I've already got two kids of my own. And yes, they already know about minding the company they keep.

If you haven't put the puzzle pieces together and realized why a certain person sought you out when they did well, again, I'm not here to teach you.

Its not always about treating others as they treat you: its about how they treat others as well. Again, company you keep.

[ColecoJoe]

You mean without giving Chris Cardillo and his "representative" a chance to respond? It's only going to get better!

 

 

I'm just starting to get angry now and I know that Chris is just trolling at this point. =)

 

And call me bias but I really don't want to hear his side of the story anymore and don't care what he has to say about it. Coleco Holdings has nothing to do with my ColecoVision collection or enjoyment. I cringe at the thought of another reply from Chris, as funny as it might be, the last one made me vomit.

[Swami]

We are calling it OpcodeVision, then there is CollectorVision. Plenty of visions, all is good.

I may change my user name to CalicoVision

[Keatah]

I'm just starting to get angry now and I know that Chris is just trolling at this point. =)

 

And call me bias but I really don't want to hear his side of the story anymore and don't care what he has to say about it. Coleco Holdings has nothing to do with my ColecoVision collection or enjoyment. I cringe at the thought of another reply from Chris, as funny as it might be, the last one made me vomit.

 

Heh.. Too bad RWB didn't offer to license the trademark to homebrewers for $1.00 a title, and then use their awesome marketing strength to promote the new games. Once they got the good graces of the community they could then hire out devs to make exclusive titles and then profit honestly. Maybe take a couple of years for penetration to take place. But there would have been no embarrassing infighting like showcased in this thread. A pipedream to be sure.