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CollectorVision Phoenix Game Console

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I don't know why you are taking my comments to heart as if you have invested tons of money into this project. I 100% want this system to succeed, especially if the implementation of the systems are fantastic. I just think having certain technical standards like 720p can only help it. You can say its a nitpick, but I personally believe it isn't and have already given you multiple reasons why in past posts. We can just agree to disagree about this and move on.

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Everyone is entitled to their opinions on what they would like in this system.

 

It is our goal to make this system as good as it can be while still maintaining our deadlines and to make sure the system is able to be produced in a timely manner.

 

The system is open source, so even if we didn't decide to change the resolution of the system, it would be possible for us or someone else to come behind and modify the system to include any missing features or improve the specs.

 

In regard to the price issue. The amount it costs to produce the system decreases with the number of systems you are producing as high expense items like injection molding and licensing get spread out over more systems. The market for the NES and the SNES is much greater then the colecovision and they can afford to make their systems have higher specs for the same cost. If we knew that we would be able to sell 20,000+ units, we could either reduce the cost or add better specs. But that is very unlikely to happen as there is not that much demand for Colecovision systems.

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Everyone is entitled to their opinions on what they would like in this system.

 

It is our goal to make this system as good as it can be while still maintaining our deadlines and to make sure the system is able to be produced in a timely manner.

 

The system is open source, so even if we didn't decide to change the resolution of the system, it would be possible for us or someone else to come behind and modify the system to include any missing features or improve the specs.

 

In regard to the price issue. The amount it costs to produce the system decreases with the number of systems you are producing as high expense items like injection molding and licensing get spread out over more systems. The market for the NES and the SNES is much greater then the colecovision and they can afford to make their systems have higher specs for the same cost. If we knew that we would be able to sell 20,000+ units, we could either reduce the cost or add better specs. But that is very unlikely to happen as there is not that much demand for Colecovision systems.

I really dig that. Will be interesting to see the possibilities of an open source FPGA system.

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Yes new games could be created to take full advantage of 640 x 480P that the F18a offers but then the games might not be backward compatible with existing ColecoVisions. It is totally false that the FPGA has better upscaling from 480P to 720P when compared to high end TV sets or Blu-ray players. Once the signal is 480P a high end external scaler well offer much better quality then FPGA. This can be proved by setting up two identical displays and using test patterns.

The difference between scaling 240p to 1080p vs 480p to 1080p (or to 2160p/4k) is integer scaling vs non-integer scaling. Integer scaling should be simpler, quicker, less lag than non-integer scaling. Non-integer scaling may introduce interpolation, blurr, and more processing by the TV. But does 720p output help if you have a 1080p TV? It is still non-integer scaling. All hd televisions are designed to scale 480p, 720p, and 1080p to their native resolution so you should get a good result either way.

 

My understanding is they are implementing the f18a graphics processor; and the f18a adds some new graphics features. Features include a tile based 256x240 graphics mode and 255x255 bitmap layer. Even though it outputs 640x480 to the display, does it support 640x480 graphics?

 

Not sure what the cost of an hdmi license is but if it's really significant one option is to go with DVI output and use a DVI/HDMI cable. For a few dollars however, having hdmi ouput would be worth it.

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The difference between scaling 240p to 1080p vs 480p to 1080p (or to 2160p/4k) is integer scaling vs non-integer scaling. Integer scaling should be simpler, quicker, less lag than non-integer scaling. Non-integer scaling may introduce interpolation, blurr, and more processing by the TV. But does 720p output help if you have a 1080p TV? It is still non-integer scaling. All hd televisions are designed to scale 480p, 720p, and 1080p to their native resolution so you should get a good result either way.

 

My understanding is they are implementing the f18a graphics processor; and the f18a adds some new graphics features. Features include a tile based 256x240 graphics mode and 255x255 bitmap layer. Even though it outputs 640x480 to the display, does it support 640x480 graphics?

 

Not sure what the cost of an hdmi license is but if it's really significant one option is to go with DVI output and use a DVI/HDMI cable. For a few dollars however, having hdmi ouput would be worth it.

720p scaled to 1080p looks noticeably better than 480p on my Plasma TV via Super NT, so I guess my Plasma prefers scaling from a higher res even if its non-integer.

 

 

Edited by SegaSnatcher

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THIS IS GOING TO BE A NEW COLECOVISION THAT WILL REPLACE ALL THAT OLD AND DYING HARDWARE AND WILL CONNECT VIA HDMI USING ALL YOUR CLASSIC AND NEW HOMEBREW CARTRIDGES AND CONTROLLERS!

 

 

 

I think this sums up my feelings and my interest in the Collectorvision very nicely. Adding anything else would just be gilding the lily.

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If we were going to add all the features I would like to have, the console price would be around $350-$400 (still without controller)

I still think $200 is a rather cheap considering what's included (F18A, SGM, over 10 games included, exclusive pack-in cartridge)

 

We're also going to have (VERY NICE) development tools included for programmers out there

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If we were going to add all the features I would like to have, the console price would be around $350-$400 (still without controller)

I still think $200 is a rather cheap considering what's included (F18A, SGM, over 10 games included, exclusive pack-in cartridge)

 

We're also going to have (VERY NICE) development tools included for programmers out there

I get that, but 720p won't add to the cost because the FPGA you are using supports it, so its just a matter of writing a scaler that supports 720p. No, its not an easy task, but we know it can be done.

 

Maybe majority of people won't care if its 480p only and if thats the case thats fine, but something tells me there will be a decent amount of potential customers put off by the 480p limitation, especially at the price point.

 

Like BMack36 stated, perhaps some of these limitations will be sorted out in the future given its an open source project.

Edited by SegaSnatcher

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I get that, but 720p won't add to the cost because the FPGA you are using supports it, so its just a matter of writing a scaler that supports 720p. No, its not an easy task, but we know it can be done.

 

But.... Have we ever said we would never do it :?

 

Like Brian mentioned, it's quite possible it could be added down the road ;) :)

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But.... Have we ever said we would never do it :?

 

Like Brian mentioned, it's quite possible it could be added down the road ;) :)

Oh no, my main goal was just to find out if those behind the project were considering it. If its being looked into thats fantastic. Like I said before I have interest in this device and simply had some opinions about the resolution modes. thats pretty much it. I appreciate you and BMack36 responding without hostility. Wished some other posters here would do the same.

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These are the resolution modes that would be ideal on the CollectorVision system over HDMI to offer the widest compatibility with equipment if a full functional built in 4K scaler was going to be included. (There are some old tube TV's that do 480i and 1080i, plus some first generation flat panels that do 480P and some older 720P flat panels).

 

So the ideal menu selection would be source direct native resolution mode, plus the following menu options would be ideal 480i, 480P, 576i pal, 576p pal, 720P, 1080i, 1080P, and 2160P with both 60Hz and 50Hz supported.

 

Of course I could just use the HDMI input on my OPPO UDP-203 and the Blu-ray player well up-scale or down-scale the native CollectorVision video to any of the above resolutions I select in the menu and 24Hz, 50Hz, and 60Hz is supported in the OPPO UDP-203. I am guessing that the HDMI output for the CollectorVision system well do 60Hz and maybe also 50Hz for international HDTV's. 24Hz is not needed since we are not dealing with film based material.

Edited by HDTV1080P

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These are the resolution modes that would be ideal on the CollectorVision system over HDMI to offer the widest compatibility with equipment if a full functional built in 4K scaler was going to be included. (There are some old tube TV's that do 480i and 1080i, plus some first generation flat panels that do 480P and some older 720P flat panels).

 

So the ideal menu selection would be source direct native resolution mode, plus the following menu options would be ideal 480i, 480P, 576i pal, 576p pal, 720P, 1080i, 1080P, and 2160P with both 60Hz and 50Hz supported.

 

Of course I could just use the HDMI input on my OPPO UDP-203 and the Blu-ray player well up-scale or down-scale the native CollectorVision video to any of the above resolutions I select in the menu and 24Hz, 50Hz, and 60Hz is supported in the OPPO UDP-203. I am guessing that the HDMI output for the CollectorVision system well do 60Hz and maybe also 50Hz for international HDTV's. 24Hz is not needed since we are not dealing with film based material.

Why would you want to even do that? That is optimized for DVD/Blu-ray movies, not video game consoles. I'm pretty sure its going to add input lag vs just having it upscale via the system itself. Those types of scalers are not in anyway optimized to upscale sharp pixel graphics.

Edited by SegaSnatcher

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Why would you want to even do that? That is optimized for Blu-ray movies, not video game consoles. I'm pretty sure its going to add input lag vs just having it upscale via the system itself.

The CollectorVision system should not have any HDMI lag since the HDMI chip well be in sync with the ColecoVision core. Once in HDMI format one should be able to connect to a HDMI A/V receiver or any HDMI scaler without input lag. If your theory about input lag was true then any 720P, 1080i, 1080P or 4K display could not be able to be used since they would all scale the native 480P CollectorVision video image to the sets native resolution. But we know that people with XBOX and Playstation 3,4 systems use HDMI just fine with external and internal HDMI scalers since the signal is always kept in the HDMI chain. Its when one uses a analog to HDMI scaler is when lag can occur.

Edited by HDTV1080P

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It might be a case where adding more display features would slow down deployment of additional consoles being added. Given the choice of meddling with their existing feature timeline and fancier graphics.. well, I'd rather develop SMS, MSX and other games using this console :)

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These are the resolution modes that would be ideal on the CollectorVision system over HDMI to offer the widest compatibility with equipment if a full functional built in 4K scaler was going to be included. (There are some old tube TV's that do 480i and 1080i, plus some first generation flat panels that do 480P and some older 720P flat panels).

 

So the ideal menu selection would be source direct native resolution mode, plus the following menu options would be ideal 480i, 480P, 576i pal, 576p pal, 720P, 1080i, 1080P, and 2160P with both 60Hz and 50Hz supported.

 

Of course I could just use the HDMI input on my OPPO UDP-203 and the Blu-ray player well up-scale or down-scale the native CollectorVision video to any of the above resolutions I select in the menu and 24Hz, 50Hz, and 60Hz is supported in the OPPO UDP-203. I am guessing that the HDMI output for the CollectorVision system well do 60Hz and maybe also 50Hz for international HDTV's. 24Hz is not needed since we are not dealing with film based material.

 

TVs and monitors (and blu-ray players) are optimized to scale video sources for things like TV and movie content. Scaling videogames is a bit more difficult, because you generally wish to retrain the pixel edges. Passing sharp edge pixels through a typical scaler will fuzz them out. I can see a big difference in how my various monitors and TVs scale 480p vs. 720p or 1080p on pixel art.

 

This is why scaling the output in an FPGA will beat any scaler on a typical TV or monitor- they simply are not designed to scale this content. Also, when upscaling to non-integer ratios, you need to keep a tight leash on the interpolation to prevent it getting fuzzy. Most people seem to like the sharp edge pixels. Also, the scalers on FPGAs can be more flexible in another way a TV/monitor/blu-ray player typically cannot- they can give you very fine control over the width (and sometimes height) so you can tweak it to suit your tastes and monitor.

 

I learned a lot of people are sensitive to aspect ratio issues, and really like having the fine X width control to tweak it 'just so'. Just my 2 bits (1/4 byte).

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TVs and monitors (and blu-ray players) are optimized to scale video sources for things like TV and movie content. Scaling videogames is a bit more difficult, because you generally wish to retrain the pixel edges. Passing sharp edge pixels through a typical scaler will fuzz them out. I can see a big difference in how my various monitors and TVs scale 480p vs. 720p or 1080p on pixel art.

 

This is why scaling the output in an FPGA will beat any scaler on a typical TV or monitor- they simply are not designed to scale this content. Also, when upscaling to non-integer ratios, you need to keep a tight leash on the interpolation to prevent it getting fuzzy. Most people seem to like the sharp edge pixels. Also, the scalers on FPGAs can be more flexible in another way a TV/monitor/blu-ray player typically cannot- they can give you very fine control over the width (and sometimes height) so you can tweak it to suit your tastes and monitor.

 

I learned a lot of people are sensitive to aspect ratio issues, and really like having the fine X width control to tweak it 'just so'. Just my 2 bits (1/4 byte).

There are several millions of people using XBOX and PS3, and PS4 systems and are happy with the TV sets scalers for videogames.

 

If the high end TV set and external scalers are such a problem then this would be more reason to include a 4K scaler in the Collectorvision system. However I have been happy with the picture quality of my ColecoVision ADAM computer when scaled from 192 interlaced composite video to 1080i, 1080P, and 4K Ultra HD.

Edited by HDTV1080P

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It might be a case where adding more display features would slow down deployment of additional consoles being added. Given the choice of meddling with their existing feature timeline and fancier graphics.. well, I'd rather develop SMS, MSX and other games using this console :)

Good point. And that is why the system could launch with 640 x 480P resolution and later on with a firmware update other resolutions like simulated 720P or higher could be supported.

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There are several millions of people using XBOX and PS3, and PS4 systems and are happy with the TV sets scalers for videogames.

 

If the high end TV set and external scalers are such a problem then this would be more reason to include a 4K scaler in the Collectorvision system. However I have been happy with the picture quality of my ColecoVision ADAM computer when scaled from 192 interlaced composite video to 1080i, 1080P, and 4K Ultra HD.

These systems aren't outputting sharp edge pixel art usually. They are generally 3D style games which is fairly similar content to TV/movies. In the case of classic videogames, we generally do not want the pixels to be antialiased :-)

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I appreciate you and BMack36 responding without hostility. Wished some other posters here would do the same.

 

Keep it up pal and we'll see how things go for you here...

 

giphy.gif

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If the CollectorVision system outputs native 480P, then the only scaling involved is the one used in the display (which could be a DLP projector or flat panel). However if the CollectorVision system is scaling 480P to 720P then anyone that owns a 1080P, 4K Ultra HD, or 8K display well be using two scalers (one scaler in the CollectorVision and one in the display). Its better to only use one scaler since two scalers has the potential to add more digital artifacts. And for people that claim scalers add lag time then two scalers in theory would add more lag time when compared to one scaler.

Edited by HDTV1080P

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If the CollectorVision system outputs native 480P, then the only scaling involved is the one used in the display (which could be a DLP projector or flat panel). However if the CollectorVision system is scaling 480P to 720P then anyone that owns a 1080P, 4K Ultra HD, or 8K display well be using two scalers (one scaler in the CollectorVision and one in the display). Its better to only use one scaler since two scalers has the potential to add more digital artifacts. And for people that claim scalers add lag time then two scalers in theory would add more lag time when compared to one scaler.

Colecovision doesn't require a framebuffer, so there shouldn't be any source input lag regardless of the internally scaled resolution, its just dependent on your display. HDTVs like being fed higher resolutions which is why I've been so insistent on 720p being the minimum standard. And like Kevtris pointed out before, you have more control scaling from the FPGA vs relying on your TV to do the brunt of the work.

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You can thank people like me willing to ask for more if 720p gets implemented. You're welcome.

If you want to take credit, maybe you could do more than just make demands on the internet. How's your VHDL? ;) Changing the resolution is more than just setting a compile switch and rebuilding. It changes the spacing and the offsets of the image generation circuitry, requires a faster clock, and more FPGA space (for the larger counters if nothing else). It's not free.

 

I know you're just being snarky, but seriously, there's a lot more effort involved than just being willing to ask for more. :)

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In the case of classic videogames, we generally do not want the pixels to be antialiased :-)

 

Modern heresy :) This is one of the main reasons people still keep CRTs around. Super-sharpness applied to retro games looks totally unnatural to me and old TV's intrinsic AA was always a blessing.

 

Of course, I'm not saying that fuzz & other scaling artifacts are a good thing.

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If you want to take credit, maybe you could do more than just make demands on the internet. How's your VHDL? ;) Changing the resolution is more than just setting a compile switch and rebuilding. It changes the spacing and the offsets of the image generation circuitry, requires a faster clock, and more FPGA space (for the larger counters if nothing else). It's not free.

 

I know you're just being snarky, but seriously, there's a lot more effort involved than just being willing to ask for more. :)

Its a request, not a demand. And I've stated that I know its not easy, but most likely worth it. I know I appreciate 720p on my AVS as do many others.

Edited by SegaSnatcher

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