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UAV - Ultimate Atari Video - Atari 7800


-^CrossBow^-

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Bryan has approved this so I felt it was high time to really get the word out on little miracle that AA user Bryan has created. In short, his Ultimate Atari Video mod board should also be known as the Universal Atari Video mod board. But enough of that, I installed one of these jewels into my 7800 yesterday and at least for me; I've found the s-video modification I've wanted since forever!

 

I did a brief video with installation overview along with game play footage captured using my camcorder aimed at my LED flat panel. The colors are still off, but I'm pretty sure it has been established that colors being wrong are and LCD technology thing and not an actual issue with the 7800 itself. Anyway, no ghosting to really speak of, no horrid color bleeding or fringing and it isn't blurry. Looks really really good!

 

Now I didn't take any captures from the composite, but I can confirm it works fine on a CRT display however, I did notice the composite image was really dark on my flat panel so do keep that in mind.

 

This is a very easy mod to do, doesn't require anything to be removed from the 7800, no switches required to shut off TIA colorburst...just soldering wires to easy to solder to points.

 

Here is the video. The video description also has links to an installation guide I created along with a link to a dropbox folder containing still pics from various games.

 

 

 

Here are some screen shots taken from my Nikon..all from S-video

 

Commando title screen comparison between the LHE and UAV. UAV is darker, but notice the color bleeding on the LHE on the edges

post-6-0-91341800-1496028719_thumb.png

 

Game play screens from the UAV:

post-6-0-06910800-1496028704_thumb.pngpost-6-0-06944600-1496028707_thumb.png

 

post-6-0-53375000-1496028702_thumb.png

 

Ballblazer as seen from through UAV:

post-6-0-94123400-1496028687_thumb.png

 

Dark Chambers title screen comparison between the LHE and UAV. Again you will notice the color bleeding present from the LHE:

post-6-0-95042500-1496028724_thumb.png

 

Here is a shot of the Harmony cart menu through the UAV. Very easy to read, even on a flat panel:

post-6-0-49949600-1496028726_thumb.png

 

Here is the title screen from Space Rocks through the UAV:

post-6-0-68682500-1496028729_thumb.png

 

Finally, here is a pic of the UAV installed in my 7800. Keep in mind the RF modulator does NOT have to be removed or disabled in anyway with this video mod board. Mine was removed for the LHE mod I had before, and also as recommended when using the s-video only board from Magic Knight:

post-6-0-69381400-1496028732_thumb.png

 

 

UAV_Installation_A7800_Revised.pdf

Edited by -^CrossBow^-
New PDF Install guide added
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This is a very easy mod to do, doesn't require anything to be removed from the 7800, no switches required to shut off TIA colorburst...just soldering wires to easy to solder to points.

 

Did your use on a 7800 that had an LHE mod?

The switch (that nobody tells you about, until you search for how to fix LHE problems) is kinda of annoying.

Does the svideo look less "blocky" than than the LHE? Tower Toppler looks -- not great.

 

Also, I just found about this mod today.

The post was very informative - Thanks.

 

 

 

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SORRY.

 

Ultmiate error. :P

 

I would like to see it on a CRT, looks "too" crisp, the whole color bleed technique from Dark Chambers is broken.

Yeah I only just noticed that about an hour ago...I can fix it and re-render the video and up it back up later. or not..

 

The only CRT I have with s-video is my tiny 8" PVM I use for bench tests. And what color bleed tech are you talking about with Dark Chambers? Cause color bleeding was the one thing that I couldn't stand about the LHE mod that was in this 7800 before.

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Did your use on a 7800 that had an LHE mod?

The switch (that nobody tells you about, until you search for how to fix LHE problems) is kinda of annoying.

Does the svideo look less "blocky" than than the LHE? Tower Toppler looks -- not great.

 

Also, I just found about this mod today.

The post was very informative - Thanks.

 

 

 

 

This 7800 in the video originally had an LHE mod..and I never liked it on my flat panel. If you click on those comparison shots...you can really see the blue lines or ghosting coming off the edges of graphics against dark backgrounds. Also you can't really see it in the pics I posted here, but the LHE had bad vertical jail bar like lines along the left hand side of the screen that was always there. And I actually did know about the TIA 9 cutoff needed to remove the diagonal interference patterns and yes, those screen shots from the LHE side had the switch installed and TIA 9 disabled.

 

Now..I didn't fire up tower toppler, but that game was programmed to heavily use CRT artifacting to produce the colors you see in the game. With S-video the artifacting is removed and so you see the dither pattern used to make the colors bleed together into new hues that can only occur on a CRT. I will have to pop in tower toppler and see how it looks. But I suspect it will have that very CGA look to it through S-video. The Composite out likely would look correct though.

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How do the "dots" in Ms. Pac-Man look?

 

I remember one mod years ago that had "double" images of them, white and a blue shadow or ghost.

 

Ok, no pun intended!

 

That is the color bleed effect I'm talking about and while I also didn't fire up Ms. Pac-man, I would imagine it to look clean through the UAV.

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Thanks for that installation guide! I have a spare rev C UAV I intend to use in one of my 7800's eventually. Nice to see all the information gathered and annotated in one place. Thanks, -^Cro§Bow^- .

 

I haven't looked at a rev C, but I do know that the original picture that Bryan took of installing a UAV in his 7800 didn't quite match up with the rev D version of the board. At first I wanted to follow the picture exactly, but then I remembered that Bryan told me he had the numbers marked on the rev D. So I went ahead and followed the numbers on the board instead of the earlier picture. It worked matching the numbers on the rev D. So again I don't know if instructions will work for the other revisions or not.

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I haven't looked at a rev C, but I do know that the original picture that Bryan took of installing a UAV in his 7800 didn't quite match up with the rev D version of the board. At first I wanted to follow the picture exactly, but then I remembered that Bryan told me he had the numbers marked on the rev D. So I went ahead and followed the numbers on the board instead of the earlier picture. It worked matching the numbers on the rev D. So again I don't know if instructions will work for the other revisions or not.

 

No worries. I already put my other older Rev C board into one of my 2600's and have the UAV pinout handy. I basically just like having a handy PDF with the photos and everything handy showing pickup points off the 7800 board and discussing how to get audio and mix it properly for both TIA and POKEY. I have two Rev D boards as well, one in an 800XL and the second received a few weeks ago destined for a 1200XL I'm going to get back in service.

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Too bad no one has developed an Atari mod board with adjustable (external) tint/hue controls, AFAIK. Regardless of how sharp the image is the colors are still skewed from what a CRT produces; Commando being among the worst of them.

 

Curious how Pitfall for the 2600 appears with this UAV mod too. It utilizes the same Hue ($1x) range as Commando for part of its color selections, which can often appear too green on a modern display without tint/hue adjustment, as opposed to a CRT.

 

The 'best' work around I have seen for palette colors that vary between a CRT and modern display, as it affects other consoles too, like the NES, is hard coding of base palette values, often offering 2 or 3 base options. It is applied with some NES RGB Mods as well as the Atari 2600 RGB mod.

 

post-18-0-41811700-1496073323.pngpost-18-0-93800800-1496073323.pngpost-18-0-44308000-1496073324.png

post-18-0-91096900-1496073324.png

post-18-0-54059100-1496073325.png

 

The comparison/correct/appropriate setting for the Atari 7800 is relatively easy to achieve by loading up the 7800 Diagnostic Cart, RevEng 7800 Utility cart, or any of the other homebrew utility programs that provide color bars/swatches.

 

Hue $1x under NTSC for the 2600/5200/7800 is supposed to be the gold range. A dark brown for the darker luminance scale, bright yellow on the lighter luminance scale, and gold in the middle, for the $1x range. Leaning green or chartreuse is not how that range is intended to appear.

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Yes and I stated that the colors were still off on my flat panel. On a CRT it looks like your pics above. But then I don't use a CRT and if that was all I intended to use, then the LHE I had originally would have been fine.

 

Also taking the pics of the screen with my camera has some odd effects that aren't actually on the screen. For instance, the commando title screen shown in the comparison pic, has this dither or checker pattern on the green. That isn't actually on the screen and is a solid color. No idea why my nikon is picking up stuff like this from the UAV but I noticed it from all pics. Also worth noting that the TV I use now, isn't the same TV I had when I had the LHE. I had a Samsung before and a firmware update bricked it. But it was also two months past warranty...so yeah. Now I have a newer Sony with higher refresh or less lag.

 

With that TV I found that I could get the green to look more brown (Although a really dark brown), by increasing the hue towards the red. But I had to pretty much max it to the red to do that and of course that throws all other games colors way outta whack on the other systems.

 

There is a pot on this board, but it is used to adjust the artifacting. Turning this has a very very minimal effect on my TVs as it only seems to slightly move the pixels a little left to right. But only by a few pixels and since the entire image does this it doesn't really change anything that I could see. Same results using that on my PVM test crt as well.

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To Trebor's point, the UAV I've got installed in one of my 2600's looks pretty great. I did adjust the color pot using a color bar test rom loaded off my Harmony cart while the machine was warmed up and running on my usual gaming CRT, also warmed up. I got the colors as close to "perfect" you can get, I guess, with 30+ year old hardware (and my gaming monitor is 30 years old this year as well!) The 2600 is only using Composite and I like it that way. I'll probably stick to Composite as well when I put a UAV into the 7800.

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To Trebor's point, the UAV I've got installed in one of my 2600's looks pretty great. I did adjust the color pot using a color bar test rom loaded off my Harmony cart while the machine was warmed up and running on my usual gaming CRT, also warmed up. I got the colors as close to "perfect" you can get, I guess, with 30+ year old hardware (and my gaming monitor is 30 years old this year as well!) The 2600 is only using Composite and I like it that way. I'll probably stick to Composite as well when I put a UAV into the 7800.

 

Excellent way to tune the color pot via a CRT. The color pot in the 2600 console (5200 & 7800 too) adjusts the degrees of separation between the color hues.

 

There's a problem though, if trying that same technique on a modern display. The goal of those various utilities (I.E. 2600 Color Bar Generator, 7800 Diagnostic Cart, RevEng's Utility Cart, 5200 Pam Diagnostic) is matching two different hue ranges as close as possible. Specifically, matching Hue $Fx with Hue $1x.

 

If Hue $1x is displaying overly green or chartreuse, as shown in the OP, ultimately the end user may also set Hue $Fx incorrectly as well. :|

 

Yes and I stated that the colors were still off on my flat panel. On a CRT it looks like your pics above. But then I don't use a CRT and if that was all I intended to use, then the LHE I had originally would have been fine...

 

...With that TV I found that I could get the green to look more brown (Although a really dark brown), by increasing the hue towards the red. But I had to pretty much max it to the red to do that and of course that throws all other games colors way outta whack on the other systems.

Unfortunately, the above is a limitation and remaining issue utilizing the subject mod, no different from the many others out there already. As noted earlier, regarding the other relatively newer mods linked to for the 2600 and NES, they have alleviated such a dilemma by offering the aforementioned selectable base palettes. ;)

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Right...usually the adjustment I make to the color is by connecting the 7800 to my PVM and then adjusting after warm up. Still doesn't make the colors look correct on the LCD...just on the crt. But again, that has to be an issue with how LCDs read these video signals. I find it hard to believe that with at least 4 different methods of AV output that I've tried, that all of them are built the same? In fact I know they aren't given the complexity of the board and components being used. So it really must be an issue with flat panel TVs in general.

 

With that, does anyone have a 7800 that looks correct on an flat panel? Even my other 7800 with just stock RF looks basically the same, only noisier colorwise.

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Right...usually the adjustment I make to the color is by connecting the 7800 to my PVM and then adjusting after warm up. Still doesn't make the colors look correct on the LCD...just on the crt. But again, that has to be an issue with how LCDs read these video signals. I find it hard to believe that with at least 4 different methods of AV output that I've tried, that all of them are built the same? In fact I know they aren't given the complexity of the board and components being used. So it really must be an issue with flat panel TVs in general.

 

With that, does anyone have a 7800 that looks correct on an flat panel? Even my other 7800 with just stock RF looks basically the same, only noisier colorwise.

 

The issue is there are certain colors in the spectrum that sit on the border of looking one way or another depending on the NTSC display's SMPTE standard applied and the tint/hue display setting.

 

The unfortunate part is a range of those colors lie within Hue $1x. A very close range of colors that appearing similar to $1x but slightly more "orange" is Hue $2x.

 

To highlight this another way, looking at another platform, such as the NES and its version of Commando, it utilizes 'tan/brown' that is similar to what would be found in an Atari's Hue $2x range. That is why NES Commando's tan/browns will typically appear in that brown/tan-ish family regardless of display.

 

In other NES games, such as Battletoads' first level, some devices have the ground leaning all green, others with brown/auburn mixed into the ground. Same with the hill side of Contra's opening level. The color being utilized in those instance behaves similarly to an Atari's Hue $1x range.

 

post-18-0-80608300-1496091536.pngpost-18-0-43082800-1496091536.png

post-18-0-57143900-1496091537.pngpost-18-0-20728100-1496091537.png

 

Here's another good way to understanding the issue with a very common 7800 game - Dig Dug. Compare the ground layers between display devices. It breaks down this way:

 

First Layer = Hue $1x

Second Layer = Hue $2x

Third Layer = Hue $2x

Fourth Layer = Hue $1x

 

Across many display devices, the Second and Third Layer is going to look 'right' because of the overall more consistent results with the Hue $2x range.

 

The First layer though, may lean more greenish or chartreuse on a modern display, rather than a bright yellow as seen on a CRT, unless the hue/tint of the display is adjusted or a video mod is produced (Like the NES and 2600 RGB one) that utilizes hard coded RGB values that will produce a desired bright yellow color.

 

The Fourth Layer is tricky. It is the darkest of the Hue $1x luminescence ($10), so it may appear 'right' even on a modern display, as an extremely dark green may come across as brown depending on saturation, brightness, and contrast settings. However, under a CRT, regardless of saturation, contrast, brightness, it is a dark brown color.

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The issue is there are certain colors in the spectrum that sit on the border of looking one way or another depending on the NTSC display's SMPTE standard applied and the tint/hue display setting.

 

The unfortunate part is a range of those colors lie within Hue $1x. A very close range of colors that appearing similar to $1x but slightly more "orange" is Hue $2x.

 

To highlight this another way, looking at another platform, such as the NES and its version of Commando, it utilizes 'tan/brown' that is similar to what would be found in an Atari's Hue $2x range. That is why NES Commando's tan/browns will typically appear in that brown/tan-ish family regardless of display.

 

In other NES games, such as Battletoads' first level, some devices have the ground leaning all green, others with brown/auburn mixed into the ground. Same with the hill side of Contra's opening level. The color being utilized in those instance behaves similarly to an Atari's Hue $1x range.

 

attachicon.gifBattletoads_SONY_NTSC50.pngattachicon.gifBattletoads_NTSC50.png

attachicon.gifCONTRA_SONY_NTSC50.pngattachicon.gifCONTRA_NTSC50.png

 

Here's another good way to understanding the issue with a very common 7800 game - Dig Dug. Compare the ground layers between display devices. It breaks down this way:

 

First Layer = Hue $1x
Second Layer = Hue $2x
Third Layer = Hue $2x
Fourth Layer = Hue $1x
Across many display devices, the Second and Third Layer is going to look 'right' because of the overall more consistent results with the Hue $2x range.
The First layer though, may lean more greenish or chartreuse on a modern display, rather than a bright yellow as seen on a CRT, unless the hue/tint of the display is adjusted or a video mod is produced (Like the NES and 2600 RGB one) that utilizes hard coded RGB values that will produce a desired bright yellow color.
The Fourth Layer is tricky. It is the darkest of the Hue $1x luminescence ($10), so it may appear 'right' even on a modern display, as an extremely dark green may come across as brown depending on saturation, brightness, and contrast settings. However, under a CRT, regardless of saturation, contrast, brightness, it is a dark brown color.

 

 

The amount of info you've collected and the level of detail is astounding, Trebor. Have you considered contacting Bryan to see if he might do some kind of updated Rev E/"Super UAV" affordable, easy-to-install video board that will work with "correct" colors on modern devices for those who don't or can't use CRTs? He's by far the most-informed, most-knowledgeable guy actively posting in the 8-bit forum who ALSO happens to be recently-experienced with designing and building video boards.

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Here are pics I just captured from a normal consumer grade CRT from back in the 90s and after adjusting from this CRT after warm up using the Utility cart for the 7800 and colorbar generator for the 2600. Sorry about the glare on the tube from the closed curtains...

 

All pics taken through s-video out on the CRT -

 

Commando Title screen:

post-6-0-82649800-1496094688_thumb.png

 

Commando game screen:

post-6-0-16930100-1496094687_thumb.png

 

Tower Toppler title screen:

post-6-0-35108500-1496094696_thumb.png

 

Tower Toppler tower screen:

post-6-0-88373400-1496094693_thumb.png

 

Tower Toppler bonus stage screen:

post-6-0-01311200-1496094692_thumb.png

 

Color test through the 7800 Utility:

post-6-0-45070500-1496095029_thumb.png

 

And finally here is 2600 Pitfall through the UAV modded 7800:

post-6-0-60222000-1496094690_thumb.png

 

Composite looks really good also on this CRT. With the added benefit that artifacting actually works properly under composite of course.

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This 7800 in the video originally had an LHE mod..and I never liked it on my flat panel. If you click on those comparison shots...you can really see the blue lines or ghosting coming off the edges of graphics against dark backgrounds. Also you can't really see it in the pics I posted here, but the LHE had bad vertical jail bar like lines along the left hand side of the screen that was always there. And I actually did know about the TIA 9 cutoff needed to remove the diagonal interference patterns and yes, those screen shots from the LHE side had the switch installed and TIA 9 disabled.

 

Now..I didn't fire up tower toppler, but that game was programmed to heavily use CRT artifacting to produce the colors you see in the game. With S-video the artifacting is removed and so you see the dither pattern used to make the colors bleed together into new hues that can only occur on a CRT. I will have to pop in tower toppler and see how it looks. But I suspect it will have that very CGA look to it through S-video. The Composite out likely would look correct though.

 

 

Thanks for The Tower Toppler pics! Those look much better than my 7800 LHE svid(even on a PVM, its just slightly better).

 

This board looks pretty good, Picture, install and price.

 

 

Also just to make things easier if someone come across this from a web search.:

 

The UAV Rev. D Video Upgrade Thread

Post on which boards to order

 

Extra links just makes things easier.icon_wink.gif

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The amount of info you've collected and the level of detail is astounding, Trebor. Have you considered contacting Bryan to see if he might do some kind of updated Rev E/"Super UAV" affordable, easy-to-install video board that will work with "correct" colors on modern devices for those who don't or can't use CRTs? He's by far the most-informed, most-knowledgeable guy actively posting in the 8-bit forum who ALSO happens to be recently-experienced with designing and building video boards.

 

I may just have to do that; hopefully, he may even see this thread. :)

 

NTSC Atari 5200 and 7800 palette's hue order and behavior are the same. They also have the same number of luminance scale values. (256 colors = 16 hues x 16 luminances)

 

The NTSC 2600 follows the same hue order and behavior as it's younger siblings with half the luminance scale values. (128 colors = 16 hues x 8 luminances)

 

The info regarding colors is found in many of the publicly available reference works: TIA Interface Adapter, Atari VCS Pop Field Service Manual, Stella Programmers' Guide, CGIA NTSC - Document D020577, GTIA C014805 NTSC.

 

The above linked document sections make it clear that Hue $1x should be gold/golden in appearance; not leaning green or chartreuse.

 

For more of a breakdown and comparisons, including incorporating console warm-up factor, there are these threads for their respective systems: Atari 2600, Atari 5200, and Atari 7800.

 

Random Terrain's TIA Color Charts and Tools as well as the Atari 8-Bit Dev 7800 site's Atari 7800 Color Documentation are extremely beneficial.

 

There is a tremendous amount of admiration and respect for anyone's work in being able to produce these video modification. Nonetheless, hopefully and ideally, when designing such a device, the end visual results match what the technical documents state should be evident. After all, a game's palette selections were based upon such expectations and/or the corresponding resulting colors experienced on the display at that time (CRT).

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I just watched -^Cro§Bow^-'s (okay, that looks weird... how about Jess') video and I'm really grateful for some comprehensive coverage of the 7800 install. I recently moved back from Costa Rica to the US and I'm renovating an old house and it's been hard to find time to do all the little things like proper documentation.

 

First thing I want to get off my chest: I HATE MODERN TVs. Although there are some good ones, most of them pay little attention to how well the legacy ports work since we're all supposed to be using HDMI now, right? On some of them you get weird colors. On some of them you get lines in the picture. Some of them have S-Video inputs that look worse than the Composite inputs. Unfortunately, it seems most TV manufacturers aren't doing any analog engineering or testing anymore and are just running IC pins to ports.

 

Now, a little bit about UAV. This is the result of my desire for a video circuit to optimally deal with Atari's video issues.

 

1. LUM timing can be skewed quite a bit between different pins. Anyone who has seen the GTIA 7-8 dark line problem has seen what happens when the pins change at different times. (a scope pic of the problem). UAV waits a small amount of time after one of the LUM lines changes and then latches them all at once to provide a sharp re-clocked pixel edge. This delay is controlled by the blue trimmer pot, which also has the effect of adjusting the artifact colors.

 

2. Various Atari circuits and video upgrades produce signals that vary quite a bit in amplitude making some systems seem brighter than others. One disadvantage to over-driven video is that the color becomes washed out. UAV is set to broadcast safe levels that keeps luminance within the 1V p-p range. It also pays attention to proper black level which keeps a black background from being gray.

 

3. The chroma signal is reshaped to be as perfect of a sine-wave as possible. The TV is designed to filter a 3.58MHz (or 4.43MHz for PAL) wave out of the picture. When the chroma is noisy mess, more of it gets through. When Chroma has the wrong amplitude, the TV must employ its color tracking circuitry which leads to other degradations of the picture. Here's an example of an Atari burst vs a UAV one.

 

4. Impedance. In my opinion, this is the most misunderstood aspect of video. These are high-speed signals being fed down a coax transmission line. You have to pay attention to impedance or there's a good chance you're going to get standing waves (ripples/ghosting). The standard for consumer video is 75 ohms. This means the source driver, the vast majority of the cabling, and the receiver must all have this characteristic impedance or the signal is going to be reflected back to the source like waves in a tank. This will cause ripples to appear to the right of high contrast graphics. The longer the cable, the further apart the ripples will be. Some upgrades actually have a brightness pot in the output which means the output impedance is completely arbitrary. UAV uses high bandwidth 75 ohm video drivers intended for HDTV use. I tried some filtered video amps intended for standard definition, but I didn't like the way they looked passing 320-mode pixels so the output bandwidth is instead gently limited in the UAV's luma ladder circuit.

 

5. I didn't initially intend to support the 7800. Although the 7800 is very similar to other Atari 8-bits I was predominantly designing an upgrade for the computers. It wasn't until I began to get requests for a 7800 version that I figured out how to do it with the Rev C board, and then I added official support on Rev D. The main issue is that there are 2 chroma signals that need to be captured before they are mixed to properly drive the shaping circuit.

 

6. The small size and shape of UAV was an attempt to make it fit inside the shields of as many machines as possible.

 

7. I am working on a universal audio board. The intent is to make a simple board that easily adds buffered audio at an appropriate level to all Atari machines that lack a dedicated audio output. Stay tuned!

 

Anyway, that's all I can think of at the moment. I'm a big fan of using the original chipset to generate the original signals so I'll forego FPGA system replacement solutions for as long as I can. I'm also a fan of upgrades that require few modifications to the original board so they can be removed at a later date. UAV is designed so it can be installed without removing anything if desired.

 

-Bryan

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One other thing... The Basic board ($22) doesn't usually include the green terminal as it is intended to be entirely soldered, and the Kit version ($25) includes all the parts to make the Plug-In board. If you just want a Basic board with the terminal strip included, just ask and I'll include it for $1 extra.

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