UAV - Ultimate Atari Video - Atari 7800

[+DrVenkman]

13 minutes ago, envytomdead2 said:

So do you think my issues are related to the 7800 itself ...

You said initially that the carts work on your original 7800, so it sure sounds to me like something is off with this one, though I doubt it’s anything directly related to the video mod. Is the modded machine socketed? If so, I’d try swapping first the TIA and then the RIOT to see if the problem carts start working. 

[RevEng]

Battlezone 2600 can be shaky on some TVs. I had a look at the code, and VSYNC is turned on at a fairly arbitrary position in the scanline. This is likely the culprit, and the sort of thing that would be worse on some TVs and completely fine on others.

[+-^CrossBow^-]

I've tested many games on many...MANY UAV upgraded 7800s over the past 3 years and haven't seen what you are describing. If I were to really take a guess here it is something specific to your TV and the Tink possibly not liking what that 7800 is doing. I know that some 2600 games still aren't quite within scanline spec and will cause the Tink2x to do some weird stuff. There is another post on here that mentions this but one of the games is Emprie Strikes Back. The screen will bounce pretty badly or blank out completely for a second or two everytime you take down one of the AT-ATs. Moon Patrols title screen will cause issues but once you start the game it is fine. 

 

The 7800 shown in the video is my personal 7800 that has always nearly been 100% compatible. I say nearly because I have never been able to get Activision Decathlon to work on it. But it can use a supercharger, plays space shuttle, Robot Tank etc without issue. You might look to see if you have C64 on your mainboard on the center right side between two smaller IC chips. If you do, you might try clipping one of the legs on it to take it out of circuit but clip it in the middle so you can put a dab of solder on it later if it doesn't make a difference for you. But you might not even have the extra timing circuit where that capacitor resides. 

 

So in my case I don't see these issues likely because of the hardware I'm using to convert my analog signals into my OSSC out to my flatpanel I play my games on. So it either a result of a the cartridge port pins simply not making good enough contact with those games, the extra timing circuit possibly causing an issue or something that you TV might not like from these games or a combo of all of that.

 

 

[+DrVenkman]

37 minutes ago, RevEng said:

Battlezone 2600 can be shaky on some TVs. I had a look at the code, and VSYNC is turned on at a fairly arbitrary position in the scanline. This is likely the culprit, and the sort of thing that would be worse on some TVs and completely fine on others.

Very interesting. I pulled out my own copy of Battlezone and just tried it in my 7800. Connected directly to a CRT or into the legacy composite input on my flatscreen, the game plays fine. But when run through my RetroTink-2X Pro, game play is very jerky, as if frames are not being generated and rendered completely, and the TV periodically loses HDMI sync entirely before the image comes back. Totally unplayable experience. 

 

By chance, is there a "fixed" or hacked version of Battlezone that correct this VSYNC issue? Because if not, as more and more people move to flatscreen TVs and scalers (since most TV's don't have analog inputs at all anymore), I foresee a lot of BZ carts being tossed or relegated to "unplayable/broken" piles by people who don't realize the programming issue that's causing the problem.

[RevEng]

Looks like there's a fixed Battlezone 2600 here, courtesty Omegamatrix.

 

Apparently I've grown older and wiser. Previously I would have started working on a hack myself. This time I knew it was likely that either @Omegamatrix or NukeyShay had beaten me to the punch by several years. ?

[+-^CrossBow^-]

15 minutes ago, DrVenkman said:

Very interesting. I pulled out my own copy of Battlezone and just tried it in my 7800. Connected directly to a CRT or into the legacy composite input on my flatscreen, the game plays fine. But when run through my RetroTink-2X Pro, game play is very jerky, as if frames are not being generated and rendered completely, and the TV periodically loses HDMI sync entirely before the image comes back. Totally unplayable experience. 

 

By chance, is there a "fixed" or hacked version of Battlezone that correct this VSYNC issue? Because if not, as more and more people move to flatscreen TVs and scalers (since most TV's don't have analog inputs at all anymore), I foresee a lot of BZ carts being tossed or relegated to "unplayable/broken" piles by people who don't realize the programming issue that's causing the problem.

You should try Empire Strikes Back through that Tink2x. When you take down AT-ATs the screen will completely blank out for a second or two. I don't see this because my Extron appears to be very tolerant of these slightly out of spec signals and converts everything to a VGA output anyway.

 

Also, I thought the newer Tink2x Pro was supposed to correct some of the issues of the earlier Tink2x that had problems with these games? But maybe I misunderstood...

 

 

[+DrVenkman]

8 minutes ago, -^CrossBow^- said:

Also, I thought the newer Tink2x Pro was supposed to correct some of the issues of the earlier Tink2x that had problems with these games? But maybe I misunderstood...

I don't know. I see in the release notes for the various firmware updates that he's targeting a lot of NES stuff and audio sync issues. I doubt he's given any Atari stuff consideration much at all, unfortunately. I'll try Empire next. 

 

EDIT: Okay, through the RetroTink, when you destroy an AT-AT, the screen freezes for a split second like it loses a couple frames but HDMI sync stays intact and the picture doesn't disappear entirely as it does in Battlezone periodically. I destroyed several AT-AT's and the same thing happens every time you hit the "sweet spot" but I didn't see it when I just shot the same walker 16 or whatever number it takes to destroy them by brute force. 

[+-^CrossBow^-]

42 minutes ago, DrVenkman said:

I don't know. I see in the release notes for the various firmware updates that he's targeting a lot of NES stuff and audio sync issues. I doubt he's given any Atari stuff consideration much at all, unfortunately. I'll try Empire next. 

 

EDIT: Okay, through the RetroTink, when you destroy an AT-AT, the screen freezes for a split second like it loses a couple frames but HDMI sync stays intact and the picture doesn't disappear entirely as it does in Battlezone periodically. I destroyed several AT-AT's and the same thing happens every time you hit the "sweet spot" but I didn't see it when I just shot the same walker 16 or whatever number it takes to destroy them by brute force. 

Wonder what the difference between the two destruction methods actually is? Does the screen flash the same way when taking them down regardless of method used?

 

[+DrVenkman]

39 minutes ago, -^CrossBow^- said:

Wonder what the difference between the two destruction methods actually is? Does the screen flash the same way when taking them down regardless of method used?

 

It's been too long since I played it for any length of time to really have a strong memory. I need to reconnect to my CRT and maybe video it to compare. 

 

EDIT: Okay, I reconnected my 7800 to my CRT and there's no real difference that I can see in one way to effect a kill versus the other: in both cases, the AT-AT does the patented Atari color-cycle for a second or two, then disappears. Now I want to go try Adventure through the RetroTink to see if the chalice color cycle when you return it to the Yellow Castle causes it to freak out. 

 

 

[+DrVenkman]

2 hours ago, RevEng said:

Battlezone 2600 can be shaky on some TVs. I had a look at the code, and VSYNC is turned on at a fairly arbitrary position in the scanline. This is likely the culprit, and the sort of thing that would be worse on some TVs and completely fine on others.

 

Thanks for that fix! Battlezone works great through the RetroTink now. Huzzah!  

 

28 minutes ago, DrVenkman said:

EDIT: Okay, I reconnected my 7800 to my CRT and there's no real difference that I can see in one way to effect a kill versus the other: in both cases, the AT-AT does the patented Atari color-cycle for a second or two, then disappears. Now I want to go try Adventure through the RetroTink to see if the chalice color cycle when you return it to the Yellow Castle causes it to freak out. 

So I tried Empire again through the RetroTink - just as before, destroying AT-AT's by just pounding them with blaster fire results in a typical Atari color-cycle effect but no screen skipping or lost-frames, but hitting them in they soft-spot causes the same effect but whatever happens in the game code makes the RetroTink skip a bit and miss a frame or two, though no lost HDMI sync.

 

I next tried Adventure and the color-cycle has no effect at all. So ... must be something quirky in the Empire code when you kill a walker by hitting them in that vulnerable spot.

 

I might try contacting the RetroTink developer and asking him to spend a few days playing 2600 titles (starting with Battlezone!) and seeing if they cause loss-of-sync or skipping issues he might be able to address via firmware updates. 

[RevEng]

1 hour ago, DrVenkman said:

Thanks for that fix! Battlezone works great through the RetroTink now. Huzzah!  

Good stuff. Out of curiosity, does this Empire fare any better? This rom normally has 2 lines of VSYNC, but the recommended amount is 3. I've changed this one to use 3 lines.

 

Star Wars - Empire more VSYNC.bin

 

I'm not totally confident, since it's the same sync routine used for every other frame, but maybe the colors and other other things going on when you hit the AT-AT are enough to cause problems with the short VSYNC. (with some sensitive displays)

[+DrVenkman]

16 minutes ago, RevEng said:

Good stuff. Out of curiosity, does this Empire fare any better? It normally has 2 lines of VSYNC, but the recommended amount is 3. I've changed this one to use 3.

 

I'm not totally confident, since it's the same sync routine used for every other frame, but maybe the colors and other other things going on when you hit the AT-AT are enough to cause problems with the short VSYNC.

Star Wars - Empire more VSYNC.bin 4 kB · 2 downloads

Thanks, I'll give that a try in a bit.

 

I ran into another weird issue - Activision StarMaster of all things.  Looks great on CRT but whatever is going on with the main screen display, I get a "RESOLUTION NOT SUPPORTED" message. I guess the RetroTink is just too simple ("You get 480p and you'll like it!") and presumes you'll always have a  240-line signal, which as we know is *not* the case with 2600 stuff. For a system that depends so utterly on electron-gun timing on an analog set, there will always be compatibility issues with modern flatscreens, especially as they all lose analog inputs year over year. *sigh* 

 

EDIT: Your Empire fix seems better - there's a very slight pause after you hit the AT-AT sweet spot but it doesn't look like you've just missed a frame or two as you would see using the stock .BIN through the scaler. 

[envytomdead2]

9 hours ago, DrVenkman said:

You said initially that the carts work on your original 7800, so it sure sounds to me like something is off with this one, though I doubt it’s anything directly related to the video mod. Is the modded machine socketed? If so, I’d try swapping first the TIA and then the RIOT to see if the problem carts start working. 

I'm not sure if it is socketed I bought the 7800 of eBay. I suppose I could contact the seller. 

 

8 hours ago, -^CrossBow^- said:

If I were to really take a guess here it is something specific to your TV and the Tink possibly not liking what that 7800 is doing. I know that some 2600 games still aren't quite within scanline spec and will cause the Tink2x to do some weird stuff

I did suspect it might be a RetroTink/flat screen so I moved all of my testing to a crt via composite. Empire Strikes works for me as do the rest of my Activision games - Pitfall, River raid, Kaboom, chopper command, stampede, keystone kapers, Enduro, Commando, freeway and pressure cooker. It's just those 5 games I mentioned  it doesn't like for some reason. 

Edited June 15, 2020 by envytomdead2
Added another thought.

[+DrVenkman]

So I tested my own RetroTink 2X-Pro tonight on the newer (2018) 4K Samsung QLED downstairs. The same problematic games exhibit issues on that TV as well, even though that's a higher-end, more capable display than the older one upstairs I use normally for my retro-stuff.

 

I wonder if it would be worthwhile to start a dedicated "RetroTink Compatibility Thread" somewhere? I think most people who buy these will have issues with 2600 games, through ironically the first problem I noticed myself was this past weekend testing out a new 5200 homebrew that had a problem with a text-mode title screen (too many lines in the display list). I don't have a huge 7800 library personally but does anyone know if there are common NTSC 7800 titles that use more or fewer than 240 scanlines?

[ApolloBoy]

I can give these games a try on my setup, I use a Koryuu as opposed to a RetroTINK so we'll see if that performs any better.

 

EDIT: Battlezone and Gravitar work perfectly fine, Empire Strikes Back loses sync for a second whenever I hit an AT-AT in its weak spot.

Edited June 16, 2020 by ApolloBoy

[+DrVenkman]

5 hours ago, ApolloBoy said:

I can give these games a try on my setup, I use a Koryuu as opposed to a RetroTINK so we'll see if that performs any better.

 

EDIT: Battlezone and Gravitar work perfectly fine, Empire Strikes Back loses sync for a second whenever I hit an AT-AT in its weak spot.

Try Activision Starmaster when you get a chance.

 

EDIT: I just looked at your link; that’s device doesn’t look like it’s an HDMI scaler, it looks like it’s a pure analog signal path with RBG/Component output, correct? If so, it’s not likely to have quite the same issue as going straight to HDMI. 

[+-^CrossBow^-]

1 hour ago, DrVenkman said:

Try Activision Starmaster when you get a chance.

 

EDIT: I just looked at your link; that’s device doesn’t look like it’s an HDMI scaler, it looks like it’s a pure analog signal path with RBG/Component output, correct? If so, it’s not likely to have quite the same issue as going straight to HDMI. 

Same reason I don't see any issues. I'm using an Extron 7SC for all of my analog signals and that box coverts everything to a 640x480P VGA output signal into my OSSC and then HDMI. So I'm guessing the Extron is cleaning up some of that oddness in these old VCS games. 

[+DrVenkman]

Ironically, these games may be one time when a cheap $25 Amazon/eBay scaler may do a “better” job than a RetroTink - they tend to output a fixed 720p/1080i signal regardless of the number of scanlines on the analog inputs. I need to do some more tests with the (unpatched) BATTLEZONE and especially with STARMASTER, which doesn’t work at all with the RetroTink.

 

I do think this topic deserves its own thread, though I’m not sure where to put. The Hardware forum seems like a natural fit but it’s sort of a wasteland that not a lot of folks visit often.

[John Stamos Mullet]

Bit of an necroupdate here:

 

I've had a UAV modded 7800 for a while now, but never hooked up the S-video connection before because I never had a TV with S-Video jacks on it. Just recently we replaced our aging/dying 65" DLP (bummer, no more 3D movies), with a Samsung Q series 4K UHD. But bummer - it has no composite, not S-video, not even Component. Just HDMI.

 

So I got a Retrotink 2x Mini - and now I finally have an S-video option (in addition to composite)

 

I gotta say - UAV S-Video + RetroTink 2x, + Q series 4k TV - is as clean as/identical to my Raspberry Pi 4 running Retropie. So incredibly clean. It almost looks fake. And No perceptible lag. amazing!
 

however - one thing I did notice now that I have a concerto and can test oodles of games that is mildly distracting is - on games that use 320 mode for numbers or letters like Pole Position 2 and Space Invaders - there is red and/or blue color haloing/ghosting around the letters. Pole position 2 is the worst of the lot. By no means is if unplayable - but I thought maybe it would be better than composite, an it's kind of, not. 
 

is this common with UAV mods and 320 mode lettering, or did I leave a hidden solder blob somewhere?

[+MrZarniwoop]

15 minutes ago, John Stamos Mullet said:

games that use 320 mode for numbers or letters like Pole Position 2 and Space Invaders - there is red and/or blue color haloing/ghosting around the letters

I get best results with my RetroTINK 2X-MINI with the UAV and S-Video with the recessed COMB switch set to "Retro" to disable the S-Video mode high frequency luma filter.

[+DrVenkman]

Although I have installed UAVs in my daily-driver 2600, 5200 and 7800, I still prefer composite for gaming over S-video. Through the Retrotink 2X-Pro, they all look excellent on the LED TV upstairs, though I usually have them all hooked up to a 27" Toshiba CRT. One warning with the Retrotink units, at least for 2600 games and potentially some 5200 titles - if the signal coming out of your system is non-standard in any way, the Retrotink scaler is likely to choke and your current-era TV will have problems - a bunch of 2600 titles have too many or two few scanlines in their display kernels, or do some weird, non-standard stuff like ending a scanline early or a little late as part of the game code. Programming tweaks like were in the noise for analog RF TVs BITD, but the Retrotink is a scaler and simply doubles the input and outputs it over HDMI. Similarly, some A8 and 5200 titles may do some funny stuff with their ANTIC display lists and generate too many or two few scanlines in the outputs - playing a late demo of the new 5200 game MAGICAL FAIRY FORCE, I discovered a bug in the menu display screen because of the way the programmer was doing the display list. Fortunately that particular issue got fixed. But there are undoubtedly many other games and programs that might cause similar issues with those systems.

 

As for the 7800, I haven't (yet?) run into any NTSC titles that cause problems through the Retrotink, but I don't have a huge collection of original carts (only about two dozen or so plus some homebrews). 

[+ZeroPage Homebrew]

On 12/30/2020 at 5:01 PM, John Stamos Mullet said:

I gotta say - UAV S-Video + RetroTink 2x, + Q series 4k TV - is as clean as/identical to my Raspberry Pi 4 running Retropie. So incredibly clean. It almost looks fake. And No perceptible lag. amazing!

I agree! I just installed the UAV S-Video a couple of days ago and I'm running it through my Framemeister with the Concerto cart and the picture is CRYSTAL clear, it's hard to distinguish from PC emulation! Jump through my latest broadcast below to check out the quality (make sure you set it to 1080P60).

 

- James

 

 

 

[+-^CrossBow^-]

On 6/16/2020 at 8:26 AM, DrVenkman said:

Ironically, these games may be one time when a cheap $25 Amazon/eBay scaler may do a “better” job than a RetroTink - they tend to output a fixed 720p/1080i signal regardless of the number of scanlines on the analog inputs. I need to do some more tests with the (unpatched) BATTLEZONE and especially with STARMASTER, which doesn’t work at all with the RetroTink.

 

I do think this topic deserves its own thread, though I’m not sure where to put. The Hardware forum seems like a natural fit but it’s sort of a wasteland that not a lot of folks visit often.

Starmaster works just fine on my UAV 7800 through AV setup. But again, my Extron is much more tolerant of these odd signals when it sends them to the OSSC. The ONLY game I can say for sure goes haywire is the title screen on Buck Rogers. That is a vhold mess through Extron on my setup. But if I connect up straight RF to the TV it doesn't happen. So yeah...just depends on the games.

[John Stamos Mullet]

1 hour ago, -^CrossBow^- said:

Starmaster works just fine on my UAV 7800 through AV setup. But again, my Extron is much more tolerant of these odd signals when it sends them to the OSSC. The ONLY game I can say for sure goes haywire is the title screen on Buck Rogers. That is a vhold mess through Extron on my setup. But if I connect up straight RF to the TV it doesn't happen. So yeah...just depends on the games.

It's the Retrotink with Starmaster that causes the problem. Mine does the same.

[+DrVenkman]

8 hours ago, John Stamos Mullet said:

It's the Retrotink with Starmaster that causes the problem. Mine does the same.

Indeed. Similarly, Atari’s Battlezone and Parker Bros’ Empire Strikes Back are troublesome as well. Battlezone has frozen and skipped frame - you can hear sound but the display kernel is so funky you rarely see enemy shots or tanks until you get hit and die. Empire just has weird flashing/loss of sync during explosions ... I found all these examples within under an hour of fooling around last spring when I got my Retrotink. I’m sure there are many more.

 

But none of this is UAV-specific, just a problem with the Retrotink devices when used with 2600 games.