Jump to content

Photo

Bad Apple by R0ger


84 replies to this topic

#1 R0ger OFFLINE  

R0ger

    Moonsweeper

  • 344 posts
  • Location:Olomouc, Czech Republic

Posted Sat Jun 3, 2017 11:26 AM

After recent releases of Bad Apple for Atari 800 and Sinclair I kinda got infected and I simply had to try myself. So here is my version !

 

So far there is only cartridge version. It uses 8mbit Maxflash cartridge, it's also tested with Ultimate cartridge. I'm working on ATR version which will need 1MByte extended RAM, but this version only needs standard 64k Atari .. and the cartridge of course.

 

If you use it with emulator, and have to select cartridge type, choose Maxflash 8MBit, old or new type, both should work.

 

There are 2 draw modes .. scanlines and filled. Scanlines look less blocky, it looks good especially on CRTs. Sadly LCDs often process the image too much and the lines don't look good .. that's where the fill mode is useful. Or if you prefer the look ..

 

The video plays at constant 12.5 FPS, resolution is 256x96. Animation itself takes cca 860k.

There are 2 versions of the music, stereo and mono, detection is automatic. Stereo version is of course lot better and recommended.

 

So enjoy !

 

Youtube version (from Altirra):

 

 

PS: If you can't get the song out of your head, sorry about that. Trust me, I know the feeling ..

Attached Files


Edited by R0ger, Sat Jun 3, 2017 11:44 AM.


#2 BillyHW OFFLINE  

BillyHW

    River Patroller

  • 3,549 posts

Posted Sat Jun 3, 2017 11:29 AM

Can somebody post a YouTube of it?



#3 R0ger OFFLINE  

R0ger

    Moonsweeper

  • Topic Starter
  • 344 posts
  • Location:Olomouc, Czech Republic

Posted Sat Jun 3, 2017 11:39 AM

Added youtube link to first post ..


Edited by R0ger, Sat Jun 3, 2017 11:44 AM.


#4 BillyHW OFFLINE  

BillyHW

    River Patroller

  • 3,549 posts

Posted Sat Jun 3, 2017 12:38 PM

Very cool.



#5 Mathy OFFLINE  

Mathy

    River Patroller

  • 2,775 posts
  • Location:Heerlen, NL

Posted Sat Jun 3, 2017 1:01 PM

Hello ROger

 

I see you are from Olomouc.  Have you been to the Fujiama meeting in Lengenfeld?  IIRC, at least one other person from Olomouc has visited the Fujiama (in 08485 Lengenfeld in Germany) before.  You can find out more about the Fujiama on my meetings page.  (and pictures, to check out the other Olomoucian(s)   :D  ).

 

Sincerely

 

Mathy


Edited by Mathy, Sat Jun 3, 2017 1:02 PM.


#6 R0ger OFFLINE  

R0ger

    Moonsweeper

  • Topic Starter
  • 344 posts
  • Location:Olomouc, Czech Republic

Posted Sat Jun 3, 2017 2:53 PM

Oh no .. guys are angry at me ! I forgot to mention the demo was released (ie finished, tested, and fixed) during Platariada party !

 

http://pl.atariada.cz



#7 emkay OFFLINE  

emkay

    Quadrunner

  • 9,603 posts
  • What's up?
  • Location:Holy Grail ;)

Posted Sat Jun 3, 2017 4:00 PM

That version is very good. but ;)

If using Stereo, why not using a 16 bit channel for the main melodic voice?

How about some challenge? Using no black "scanlines" and to optimize the tune for one POKEY ? Saving some CPU for the music? Using the vertical scrolling could help to remove the scanlines... ;)

#8 Irgendwer OFFLINE  

Irgendwer

    Stargunner

  • 1,410 posts
  • Location:Germany

Posted Sat Jun 3, 2017 4:20 PM

Now that we have two times the "Bad Apple", I wonder when we get a nice version of this:

 

 

?


Edited by Irgendwer, Sat Jun 3, 2017 4:20 PM.


#9 Tangentg OFFLINE  

Tangentg

    Moonsweeper

  • 414 posts

Posted Sat Jun 3, 2017 6:25 PM

Nice. Good to see other Touhou fans (possibly) here.



#10 jvas OFFLINE  

jvas

    Moonsweeper

  • 422 posts
  • Location:Budapest, Hungary (Europe)

Posted Sun Jun 4, 2017 5:35 AM

Very nice! Tested on Eclairé.



#11 R0ger OFFLINE  

R0ger

    Moonsweeper

  • Topic Starter
  • 344 posts
  • Location:Olomouc, Czech Republic

Posted Sun Jun 4, 2017 3:35 PM

If using Stereo, why not using a 16 bit channel for the main melodic voice?

I felt it's not needed. The music actually uses slightly modified freq tables in RMT. In the end I found the lead to be ok just like this. The bass line in one channel uses 16bit. The lead has 2 different voices, and I came to conclusion that I need base drum in both channels to get that dancy feeling of the original. So I didn't really have channels to spare.

 

How about some challenge? Using no black "scanlines" and to optimize the tune for one POKEY ? Saving some CPU for the music? Using the vertical scrolling could help to remove the scanlines... ;)

 

Not sure I follow. There is mono version .. it plays when you have Atari with single POKEY.

 

Using no black lines ? There's option for that.

As for playing the video in full 256x192, that would only be possible at halve the framerate. I prefer this combination. I don't think there is much room for improving playback speed. I can play some of the frames at 25fps .. but the overall framerate is defined by the slowest frames. Which I know can do at 12.5 fps. Of course, there could be variable framerate .. but then I don't really have that much room to store more frames, and it would complicate synchronization with the music, which I think is important for music video (and sadly not often achieved in 8-bit remakes).

 

Saving some CPU for the music? Music takes 15% of the time, which I consider way too much. There are 2 RMT calls per frame to achieve tricky 5.5 frames per line .. it also helps with instruments. The resulting speed is 136.36 BPM .. which is 2% slower then the original 138 BPM. The video is then slowed accordingly to match the music. That's pretty unnoticeable difference unless you play it side by side.

 

Using the vertical scrolling could help to remove the scanlines ? What ? How ? Also .. why ? I love the scanlines (on CRT) ..



#12 R0ger OFFLINE  

R0ger

    Moonsweeper

  • Topic Starter
  • 344 posts
  • Location:Olomouc, Czech Republic

Posted Sun Jun 4, 2017 3:41 PM

Now that we have two times the "Bad Apple", I wonder when we get a nice version of this:

 

Nice. Good to see other Touhou fans (possibly) here.

 

I'm fan of all Japanese in general, but not really especially Touhou inclined. Just like this video and the associated remakes. I even held 1 hour lecture about history of it on this year's Atariada, it's on youtube, in Czech only though. As for other videos .. first .. I'm not making any more for some time now I guess .. second .. unless it has cute anime girls, forget it .. :-D


Edited by R0ger, Sun Jun 4, 2017 3:42 PM.


#13 Tangentg OFFLINE  

Tangentg

    Moonsweeper

  • 414 posts

Posted Sun Jun 4, 2017 7:56 PM

Unsure what you mean "all Japanese" but since you mentioned anime girls I guess you mean anime and manga and possibly games with anime styled graphics

#14 Kyle22 OFFLINE  

Kyle22

    River Patroller

  • 3,713 posts
  • Call my BBS! telnet://broadway1.lorexddns.net
  • Location:McKees Rocks (Pittsburgh), PA

Posted Sun Jun 4, 2017 8:09 PM

Looks nice. The only thing I noticed is that my screen turns green just as she throws the knife. If I press L it fixes the screen.  I must press L again because the lyrics make my Sharp Aquos monitor go crazy and vertically 'flip' a lot.  This is the same monitor that supports NTSC, PAL, PAL60, but NOT NTSC50!

 

The green problem has nothing to do with the monitor, of course.

 

I am running it from an Ultimate cart on an Incognito 800 in 1088XE mode.

 

Edit: With 65c802 CPU.


Edited by Kyle22, Sun Jun 4, 2017 8:32 PM.


#15 Poison OFFLINE  

Poison

    Moonsweeper

  • 364 posts
  • Location:Czech Republic

Posted Mon Jun 5, 2017 12:56 AM

Great work! Super music!



#16 pirx OFFLINE  

pirx

    Moonsweeper

  • 443 posts
  • Location:Poland

Posted Mon Jun 5, 2017 2:16 AM

my little ATASCII test of the notorious video enclosed. might not work on the real deal, have no atari on me :( This is because many (too many?) lines used to keep the original (?) video ratio. 

requires hard disk or something, reading with floppy speed not advised :]

start with "X BAD.XEX" on SDX, but possibly it is cool to run it from e.g. SIDE.

 

it starts with some apparently blank screens, but it is just the video as it is.

 

the goal of the experiment was to check whether it is possible at all to see anything in ATASCII animated. experiment was a success : ]

Attached Files


Edited by pirx, Mon Jun 5, 2017 2:18 AM.


#17 emkay OFFLINE  

emkay

    Quadrunner

  • 9,603 posts
  • What's up?
  • Location:Holy Grail ;)

Posted Mon Jun 5, 2017 3:01 AM

Using no black lines ? There's option for that.


Well, I wrote that after a short view over the video. Forget that part ;)


Saving some CPU for the music? Music takes 15% of the time, which I consider way too much. There are 2 RMT calls per frame to achieve tricky 5.5 frames per line .. it also helps with instruments. The resulting speed is 136.36 BPM .. which is 2% slower then the original 138 BPM. The video is then slowed accordingly to match the music. That's pretty unnoticeable difference unless you play it side by side.


Nice effort. But, as it seems, it's not my kind of music, added with the typical POKEY 8-bit detune that keeps me distant...
But it sounds much better than the "other" version.

#18 R0ger OFFLINE  

R0ger

    Moonsweeper

  • Topic Starter
  • 344 posts
  • Location:Olomouc, Czech Republic

Posted Mon Jun 5, 2017 5:26 AM

Looks nice. The only thing I noticed is that my screen turns green just as she throws the knife. If I press L it fixes the screen.  I must press L again because the lyrics make my Sharp Aquos monitor go crazy and vertically 'flip' a lot.  This is the same monitor that supports NTSC, PAL, PAL60, but NOT NTSC50!

 

The green problem has nothing to do with the monitor, of course.

 

I am running it from an Ultimate cart on an Incognito 800 in 1088XE mode.

 

Edit: With 65c802 CPU.

Probably some problem with timing. There is code in the demo which turns screen yellow when it fails to render frame in time. It might come out as greenish on some devices .. I was thinking about some softer approach, but real Atari and proper emulators have no problem with timing being precise enough. And as for lyrics, it's simply because they use more then 200 lines. That's still totally legal, but some emulators or monitors can have trouble with that.



#19 R0ger OFFLINE  

R0ger

    Moonsweeper

  • Topic Starter
  • 344 posts
  • Location:Olomouc, Czech Republic

Posted Mon Jun 5, 2017 5:31 AM

Well, I wrote that after a short view over the video. Forget that part ;)



Nice effort. But, as it seems, it's not my kind of music, added with the typical POKEY 8-bit detune that keeps me distant...
But it sounds much better than the "other" version.

 

I see .. well yeah .. I spent like half of the time writing the tracks, fiddling with instruments, adjusting volumes, deciding channel allocation, all that jazz .. and the other half I spent researching limits and options of how the get the damn thing in tune. The demo actually uses modified freq tables for RMT for the lead voices. But I'm not sure it helps much. One day it seems like it helps a lot, other day I can't tell the difference.



#20 R0ger OFFLINE  

R0ger

    Moonsweeper

  • Topic Starter
  • 344 posts
  • Location:Olomouc, Czech Republic

Posted Mon Jun 5, 2017 5:31 AM

my little ATASCII test of the notorious video enclosed. might not work on the real deal, have no atari on me :( This is because many (too many?) lines used to keep the original (?) video ratio. 

requires hard disk or something, reading with floppy speed not advised :]

start with "X BAD.XEX" on SDX, but possibly it is cool to run it from e.g. SIDE.

 

it starts with some apparently blank screens, but it is just the video as it is.

 

the goal of the experiment was to check whether it is possible at all to see anything in ATASCII animated. experiment was a success : ]

 

Wanna see it ! But can't make the xex work (in Altirra) .. any chance you can upload it on youtube ?


Edited by R0ger, Mon Jun 5, 2017 5:32 AM.


#21 rdea6 OFFLINE  

rdea6

    River Patroller

  • 2,757 posts
  • Location:Arizona USA

Posted Mon Jun 5, 2017 5:39 AM

start with "X BAD.XEX" on SDX, but possibly it is cool to run it from e.g. SIDE.

the goal of the experiment was to check whether it is possible at all to see anything in ATASCII animated. experiment was a success : ]

I uploaded this to my Side Cartridge and ran with SpartaDos X and it is very good.  As good as the VS videos.



#22 R0ger OFFLINE  

R0ger

    Moonsweeper

  • Topic Starter
  • 344 posts
  • Location:Olomouc, Czech Republic

Posted Mon Jun 5, 2017 6:02 AM

Unsure what you mean "all Japanese" but since you mentioned anime girls I guess you mean anime and manga and possibly games with anime styled graphics

I learn Japanese, I visit Japan every year, I even climbed Fuji .. in other words fully developed Japanophilia ..



#23 pirx OFFLINE  

pirx

    Moonsweeper

  • 443 posts
  • Location:Poland

Posted Mon Jun 5, 2017 8:43 AM

Wanna see it ! But can't make the xex work (in Altirra) .. any chance you can upload it on youtube ?

 

one needs to load it from some loader or DOS as Altirra is possibly loading XEXes cleverly directly to the memory in no time at all, so all these 5MiB got loaded at once and then it crashes as the file got no code at all.  



#24 emkay OFFLINE  

emkay

    Quadrunner

  • 9,603 posts
  • What's up?
  • Location:Holy Grail ;)

Posted Mon Jun 5, 2017 8:56 AM

I see .. well yeah .. I spent like half of the time writing the tracks, fiddling with instruments, adjusting volumes, deciding channel allocation, all that jazz .. and the other half I spent researching limits and options of how the get the damn thing in tune. The demo actually uses modified freq tables for RMT for the lead voices. But I'm not sure it helps much. One day it seems like it helps a lot, other day I can't tell the difference.


Is it allowed to have a look in the RMT ? What patches did you use?

I don't know about how the Data has to be converted from the original to your version. But could it be possible to use Antic D in fullscreen without a huge amount of "rework" ? It either could result in the double of used frames or RMT could be used at 3 or even 4 times replay speed.

Edited by emkay, Mon Jun 5, 2017 8:57 AM.


#25 R0ger OFFLINE  

R0ger

    Moonsweeper

  • Topic Starter
  • 344 posts
  • Location:Olomouc, Czech Republic

Posted Mon Jun 5, 2017 9:39 AM

Is it allowed to have a look in the RMT ? What patches did you use?

I don't know about how the Data has to be converted from the original to your version. But could it be possible to use Antic D in fullscreen without a huge amount of "rework" ? It either could result in the double of used frames or RMT could be used at 3 or even 4 times replay speed.

As for RMT patch, I tried some, but made my own in the end. Basically RMT A mode is tuned to 440Hz more or less. C and E are bit higher though. So I shifted A mode so it's better in tune with C and E. Still it's not universally usable, the 8 bit bass modes are way off.

 

The D mode is actually good idea .. I wanted to go 256 in width, to preserve as much detail as possible .. and it wouldn't be 3 times faster .. but it could pretty well be 2 times faster, which is all I would ever ask for .. will think about it ..

 

Edit: Did quick compression test .. at 128x96, 25FPS it takes 1.133 meg .. in other words it does not compress as well, which is to be expected. And it doesn't look that much good either .. so I guess I'm not even trying to modify the playback on Atari ..


Edited by R0ger, Mon Jun 5, 2017 9:54 AM.





0 user(s) are browsing this forum

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users