Flojomojo Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 That reminds me ... shouldn't the Coleco Mini Arcades be out by now? I had forgotten about them. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBerel Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 It's a tricky one. I guess the best option for the Gameband backers would be to get a lawyer to take on a class action case on a no win no pay basis. But since they said the money is gone, that's going to be very hard to get a lawyer that would do that. They would need some evidence that the Gameband team either lied about there being no money, or there was evidence of fraud so they could to go after the Gameband CEO personnaly to retrieve cash. The situation sucks. This reminds me of the Peachy printer campaign where they flat out came out and said that one of the team members stole a huge chunk of backers money - $320K. And yet nothing happened. At least not to date and it's been years. Actually when one considers they may well have an actionable case for conspiracy to defraud, the best thing they could do is contact the DA for the state of jurisdiction and file a formal criminal complaint. The fact that it was a Kickstarter does not relieve Fergie of fraud liability when he did not comply with the terms of the service agreements. Those are an actual contract despite it being click through crap. You know the software companies enforce their click through (never read) terms all the time. Economic and white collar crimes such as state tax fraud, check kiting, and consumer fraud can be prosecuted in state court. It doesn't matter if the jack-weed actually has any money remaining or not. If the DA finds sufficient evidence of fraud, he would be held liable and subject to financial penalties or jail time. https://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/GoFundMe-Homeless-Veteran-John-Bobbitt-Hearing-501535691.html Yeah, turn off "smart quotes." Thanks, I figured it was an Ipad setting but nothing I found made sense. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flojomojo Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 Actually when one considers they may well have an actionable case for conspiracy to defraud ... I kinda doubt it, especially when everyone involved in IGG ("entrepreneurs" and "backers" alike) enter into the contract from here when using the site. That doesn't mean someone couldn't sue them successfully, but the Ataribox fans don't seem like they have the resources to pull off that kind of thing. Bold highlights are mine. INDIEGOGO HAS NO FIDUCIARY DUTY TO ANY USER. THE SERVICES, INDIEGOGO CONTENT, USER CONTENT, AND ANY OTHER MATERIALS MADE AVAILABLE OR THROUGH THE USE OF THE SERVICES ARE PROVIDED ON AN "AS IS" AND "AS AVAILABLE" BASIS WITHOUT ANY WARRANTIES OF ANY KIND, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING, WITHOUT LIMITATION, IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY OR FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, NONINFRINGEMENT OR COURSE OF PERFORMANCE. 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racerx Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 The "limited edition" at $79 after discount is almost a not stupid price. They've been trying to get someone to buy those "Limited Edition" Bladerunner hats since they launched a year ago. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBerel Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 Yeah, it's so stereotypical of all these sham crowd funders that when they are finally called to the carpet to explain their complete inability to communicate about months and months of missed deadlines, their response is always, "There's just this one minor problem we are fine tuning to make things perfect." Then they roll out their new and improved timeline that looks like this...... Jan 17, 2018 Launch money grab & announce November release Feb 27, 2018 Funding success April 15, 2018 Silence July 24, 2018 Silence October 15, 2018 More silence November 18, 2018 We're totally on track, just a single minor issue to address then everything is full speed ahead. February 4, 2019 Great news we've updated our timeline. Feb 12, 2019 Prototype complete Feb 15, 2019 Design validation Feb 17, 2019 Electrical Validation Feb 19, 2019 Sign contracts Feb 22, 2019 Order raw materials Feb 24, 2019 Ramp up production Feb 25, 2019 Testing Feb 26, 2019 Mass production March 1, 2019 Shipping As simple as that! 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBerel Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 (edited) I kinda doubt it, especially when everyone involved in IGG ("entrepreneurs" and "backers" alike) enter into the contract from here when using the site. That doesn't mean someone couldn't sue them successfully, but the Ataribox fans don't seem like they have the resources to pull off that kind of thing. Bold highlights are mine. I'm talking about FMTwo games and Feargal having charges filed against them by the DA based on complaints filed by the backers. The crowdfunding rackets don't enter into it since they just provide the mechanism like a lawyer or accountant. They also know enough to shield themselves from the actual project risks. If the company running the project doesn't comply with the terms of the fundraising mechanism, or pledges to their backers, they can be held liable for consumer fraud. As I've mentioned from the beginning, anytime these "companies" offer a pre-order, as they clearly did, they set themselves up for criminal liability for failure to deliver. A waiver from the crowdfunding site doesn't relieve the sleazy companies or individuals of legal liability. Edited November 30, 2018 by JBerel 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PlaysWithWolves Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 The Sinclair Vega Plus ruling might be a precedent, at least in the UK. You may recall that the judge ruled in favor of the lawsuit because the crowdfunding was set up like an ordering page, including using the word "order". I see the Gameband Kickstarter was set up the same way with "pre-order". 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColecoJoe Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 The shipping options have a big meaty asterisk, "from the moment the goods are available in the warehouse." ** ** They have such strange unprofessional disclaimers. As if a Russian troll was writing these 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColecoJoe Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 That reminds me ... shouldn't the Coleco Mini Arcades be out by now? I had forgotten about them. Screen Shot 2018-11-30 at 9.03.57 AM.pngScreen Shot 2018-11-30 at 9.04.17 AM.pngScreen Shot 2018-11-30 at 9.04.47 AM.pngScreen Shot 2018-11-30 at 9.05.02 AM.png I hate these people but at least their update if true is transparent enough to let the fools know there is an audio issue they are working on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
godslabrat Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 Yeah, it's so stereotypical of all these sham crowd funders that when they are finally called to the carpet to explain their complete inability to communicate about months and months of missed deadlines, their response is always, "There's just this one minor problem we are fine tuning to make things perfect." Then they roll out their new and improved timeline that looks like this...... Jan 17, 2018 Launch money grab & announce November release Feb 27, 2018 Funding success April 15, 2018 Silence July 24, 2018 Silence October 15, 2018 More silence November 18, 2018 We're totally on track, just a single minor issue to address then everything is full speed ahead. February 4, 2019 Great news we've updated our timeline. Feb 12, 2019 Prototype complete Feb 15, 2019 Design validation Feb 17, 2019 Electrical Validation Feb 19, 2019 Sign contracts Feb 22, 2019 Order raw materials Feb 24, 2019 Ramp up production Feb 25, 2019 Testing Feb 26, 2019 Mass production March 1, 2019 Shipping As simple as that! Indeed. Just like saying that "one key element" is not in place. Then identifying that key element as being something incredibly trivial: the controller. Then eight months later announcing how you've made GREAT STRIDES in getting to a command prompt. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannacek Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 (edited) Quote, Choice bits bolded: If a creator is unable to complete their project and fulfill rewards, they’ve failed to live up to the basic obligations of this agreement. To right this, they must make every reasonable effort to find another way of bringing the project to the best possible conclusion for backers. A creator in this position has only remedied the situation and met their obligations to backers if: they post an update that explains what work has been done, how funds were used, and what prevents them from finishing the project as planned; they work diligently and in good faith to bring the project to the best possible conclusion in a timeframe that’s communicated to backers; they’re able to demonstrate that they’ve used funds appropriately and made every reasonable effort to complete the project as promised; they’ve been honest, and have made no material misrepresentations in their communication to backers; and they offer to return any remaining funds to backers who have not received their reward (in proportion to the amounts pledged), or else explain how those funds will be used to complete the project in some alternate form. The creator is solely responsible for fulfilling the promises made in their project. If they’re unable to satisfy the terms of this agreement, they may be subject to legal action by backers. There is nothing you can do if a crowdfunder takes the money and runs. All they owe you is an explanation of what went wrong, and in court you could sue them to get the explanation, if they refuse to provide one. You can not get a refund, even if they all got drunk and spent the money on hookers. You would in theory be able to force them to admit they got drunk and spent the money on hookers. Edited November 30, 2018 by Hannacek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flojomojo Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 You would in theory be able to get them to admit they got drunk and spent the money on hookers. “Ultimately the time, cost, and complexity have turned out to be far more challenging than we expected, and as a startup we simply do not have the finances or resources to continue to forge ahead. We have looked at it from many angles, met with new potential partners, and tried to find additional funding to keep going, however we have not been able to make progress.” 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lingyi Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 (edited) This completely boggles my mind, the campaign is currently back up to $3,003,479! Which means people are still signing up! Okay, some probably just heard of it, but don't people search for what's being said before throwing their money at something? Or is it someone (who could that be? ) making sure the campaign doesn't fall behind $3 mil? Edited November 30, 2018 by lingyi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lingyi Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 “Ultimately the time, cost, and complexity have turned out to be far more challenging than we expected, and as a startup we simply do not have the finances or resources to continue to forge ahead. We have looked at it from many angles, met with new potential partners, and tried to find additional funding to keep going, however we have not been able to make progress.” Noooo... no one would say that. Ohh... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerx Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 This completely boggles my mind, the campaign is currently back up to $3,003,479! Which means people are still signing up! Okay, some probably just heard of it, but don't people search for what's being said before throwing their money at something? Or is it someone (who could that be? ) making sure the campaign doesn't fall behind $3 mil? To be fair, there isn't much being said now that wasn't also being said before and during the campaign. There will always be people with more money than sense. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flojomojo Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 Or is it someone (who could that be? ) making sure the campaign doesn't fall behind $3 mil? No one knows. 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lingyi Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 (edited) Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain! - The Wizard of VCS Oh...forgot...almost three posts without it! Tacos! Edited November 30, 2018 by lingyi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBerel Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 (edited) If their aim has been to make it look like their company was a desirable acquisition, or raise their stock price, there's nothing that would prevent them from "investing" company dollars into their own crowdfunder. They'd just need to decide to pay the indiegogo fee, but they would probably write off the entire amount as a business expense including fees, then refund themselves off the books through an intermediary when they closed out the project after failing, or actually delivering something (unlikely). Sounds like a great tax dodge that they would probably get away with. They could just claim that a couple million of their own dollars got burnt up in all the high level development activities, but out of good faith, they decided to refund a few big backers, or most of them, once it failed. In fact, that seriously makes me wonder how much of their backer fund is legitimate at all. It's very, very unusual that it would hover just over $3M like that, and as disappointing as the lack of critical thinking skills are these days, I have a hard time believing they found around 10,000 suckers that thought it was a good idea. I'd believe several hundred to a few thousand. The backer comments don't even look like a legitimate campaign of that size. We may eventually find that they never had anything to loose by failing because it was all just a paper exercise that a handful of kool-aid drinking schlubs got caught up in. Thinking more on it, I don't see any mechanisms in place that would prevent, or even reveal a pretty simple ponzi scheme via these crowd funding sites. Rather than collect funds from hapless backers, do little or nothing and then claim project failure while keeping the money, they could easily do the following: 1. Collect backer funds on the order of say $500,000 2. Inject company money into the campaign through a number of fake backer accounts or employees of the business, say $2M. 3. Company writes off $2M as capital or operating expenses for the campaign. 4. As the campaign runs, they communicate just enough to suggest any level of activity is actually happening that costs money. 5. After the campaign runs it's course and fails, they issue partial refunds to avoid a riot thereby siphoning money from legitimate backers while making themselves whole or better. 6. They collect their $2M back or more while legitimate backers pay their indiegogo expenses via the portion of their contribution that wasn't refunded. 7. They write off anything and everything as a loss without reporting income on the proceeds they got from their refund to themselves. I don't think that's tin foil hat stuff there at all. At best it's simply creative accounting. Edited November 30, 2018 by JBerel 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannacek Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 Startups buy their own products all the time as a way to boost their sales numbers, and give a false sense of confidence in their business. But for Atari to do that while having to pay Indigogo and credit card fees would be insane. The only way they would do it, is if they are putting very small amounts of money into it to claim the moral victory of staying above $3 million. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBerel Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 It wouldn't be insane if they always intended to refund themselves which can be done selectively at their own discretion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PacManPlus Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 That reminds me ... shouldn't the Coleco Mini Arcades be out by now? I had forgotten about them. Screen Shot 2018-11-30 at 9.03.57 AM.pngScreen Shot 2018-11-30 at 9.04.17 AM.pngScreen Shot 2018-11-30 at 9.04.47 AM.pngScreen Shot 2018-11-30 at 9.05.02 AM.png Just so you know, Rainbow Brite *was* finished by me a year ago, but they wanted to add save states and introductory text at the last minute. I completely misunderstood them and for both items thought they wanted something *much* more extravagant than they actually wanted (I thought they wanted pages of text everywhere, and a battery save state - which I have no idea how to do). So I told them 'no'. After I gave them the source code, I found out that they only wanted a few text boxes, and a 'continue' option. They had someone else add those. They were just finished a few weeks ago, and I play tested it. In the case of Coleco, they are telling the truth. 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannacek Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 It wouldn't be insane if they always intended to refund themselves which can be done selectively at their own discretion. You are probably overthinking it. This seems to just be a good old fashioned take the money and run scam. Maybe they were expecting to only raise $300,000 and they could reasonably claim they ran out of money. But they raised way more than expected, and had no plans to make a console. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+frankodragon Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 My guess is that when the time comes, it'll all go belly up. It's like when Clark Griswold expected a Christmas bonus, but got shafted with a Jelly of the Month club instead. Or as I like to call it- The Jar of Nothing. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flojomojo Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 Thinking more on it, I don't see any mechanisms in place that would prevent, or even reveal a pretty simple ponzi scheme via these crowd funding sites. I agree that you're probably overthinking it. Indiegogo skims a percentage of their take, so it's not like Atari is doing this for free. 5% of $3M is $150,000! Indiegogo's platform fee on all funds raised is 5%. It is free to sign up and create a campaign and fees are deducted from the funds you actually raise (not the goal you set). In addition, Stripe (credit card processor) charges a processing fee of 3% + 0.30 per transaction. There may also be an additional wire transfer fee, depending on your currency and bank account location. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBerel Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 (edited) Upon reflection, it may seem like more than that group can fathom, but the 5% and/or other fees isnt at issue. They get that back and more by only issuing partial refunds and keeping anything else. They refund themselves whatever they want, but the portion they held back from others would far exceed the 5% fee they paid. Remember in addition to that, they would also be writing off their expenses in doing it which would yield another 30% in tax exemptions. Its not a stretch to make money on the boondoggle both coming and going. Keeping in mind that their ultimate goal would be to demonstrate interest and buzz for potential shareholders. That said, with this group, they probably only raised 30k and they misplaced the decimal. Point is, theres no rule book or regulatory components in any of it. Edited November 30, 2018 by JBerel 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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