New Atari Console that Ataribox?

[PlaysWithWolves]

19 minutes ago, Zoyx said:

So calling Atari "cunts" isn't hate? I guess I learned a new thing.

 

"Something something something hate?  I guess I learned something."

[Zoyx]

3 minutes ago, AtariLeaf said:

In Australia it can actually be a positive

One of my favorite podcasts is called, "Don't say Cunt".

[Zoyx]

3 minutes ago, PlaysWithWolves said:

 

"Something something something hate?  I guess I learned something."

Look, I get it now. This is just one big lovefest for Atari SA, and you are just offering kind constructive criticism to make Atari VCS a better a product for all of us to enjoy. I sincerely apologize for misjudging you all.

[ColecoJoe]

1 minute ago, Zoyx said:

Look, I get it now. This is just one big lovefest for Atari SA, and you are just offering kind constructive criticism to make Atari VCS a better a product for all of us to enjoy. I sincerely apologize for misjudging you all.

Wrong again. It’s about Tacos bro. 

[Lodmot]

6 minutes ago, Zoyx said:

Look, I get it now. This is just one big lovefest for Atari SA, and you are just offering kind constructive criticism to make Atari VCS a better a product for all of us to enjoy. I sincerely apologize for misjudging you all.

 

In fairness to you, I sorta get where you're coming from, because I was there too. One thing you have to realize is that there's going to be a lot of sarcasm in this thread, because this is a thread about the Atari VCS-- a console that the general public is NOT taking seriously at all.

 

I usually like having meaningful conversations about the topic at hand, but Atari burned me as a developer and a consumer, so I don't frankly care what people are like towards the project anymore.

Reality is harsh, but you get used to it.

Edited December 3, 2019 by Lodmot

[Mockduck]

2 hours ago, PlaysWithWolves said:

 

Speaking of which, @Mockduck found out our secret plan to say things we've been saying for a long time. WHO TOLD HIM?!

 

Thanks for the harassment, snowflake dirtbag. Keep moving that goal post!

[ColecoJoe]

2 minutes ago, Mockduck said:

Thanks for the harassment, snowflake dirtbag. Keep moving that goal post!

You consider posting a screenshot of your post harassment then accuse HIM of being a snowflake???? 

 

[Mockduck]

5 minutes ago, ColecoJoe said:

You consider posting a screenshot of your post harassment then accuse HIM of being a snowflake???? 

 

yup. pretty obvious unless you are a fool.

 

But let me be nice and thank all the keyboard warriors here fighting for Internet Justice, you are doing God's work. When truth needs a friend, the world can depend on your heroism. 

[JBerel]

I hate to re-post this, but your lack of self awareness is astonishing. 

 

snow·flake
/ˈsnōˌflāk/

noun

noun: snowflake; plural noun: snowflakes; 
1. a flake of snow, especially a feathery ice crystal, typically displaying delicate sixfold symmetry.
 
2. INFORMAL•DEROGATORY
     A very sensitive person. Someone who is easily hurt or offended by the statements or actions of others.

 

 

 

 

Stay woke brother.

woke

/wōk/

verb

1. past of wake¹.

    

adjective

INFORMAL•US

adjective: woke; comparative adjective: woker; superlative adjective: wokest

1. alert to injustice in society, especially racism.

   "we need to stay angry, and stay woke"

 

Edited December 3, 2019 by JBerel

[PlaysWithWolves]

1 hour ago, Zoyx said:

Look, I get it now. This is just one big lovefest for Atari SA, and you are just offering kind constructive criticism to make Atari VCS a better a product for all of us to enjoy. I sincerely apologize for misjudging you all.

 

Look, I'd have prefered @Shawn wouldn't have used that word because American women find it highly offensive.  There's really no need to possibly run women off here over a word.  But, I also recognize it doesn't have that kind of weight in much of the world.  I hope adult men and women recognize this, too, and not jump into "I'm offended" mode.

 

What word would you have preferred he use?  Jerks?  Bastards?  Grifters?  Con men?  Jackasses?  Liars?  Pigeon keepers?

[Mockduck]

1 minute ago, JBerel said:

I hate to re-post this, but your lack of self awareness is astonishing. 

 

snow·flake
/ˈsnōˌflāk/

noun

noun: snowflake; plural noun: snowflakes; 
1. a flake of snow, especially a feathery ice crystal, typically displaying delicate sixfold symmetry.
 
2. INFORMAL•DEROGATORY
     A very sensitive person. Someone who is easily hurt or offended by the statements or actions of others.

 

 

Not sensitive, just pushing back against the harassment from Playswithwolves. Doesn't make me a snowflake to defend myself against a personal attack. Calling me out on the forums, circling a Facebook post, then harassing me does indeed make one a snowflake, especially since I wasn't talking to this person. They have been on my ignore list for a while due to harassment. Unfortunately, this kind of harassment is happening not just here from Playswithwolves and a few other big names here. You'd think as adults I wouldn't have to deal with middle school bullies, but there ya go. 

[Lodmot]

8 minutes ago, JBerel said:

I hate to re-post this, but your lack of self awareness is astonishing. 

 

snow·flake
/ˈsnōˌflāk/

noun

noun: snowflake; plural noun: snowflakes; 
1. a flake of snow, especially a feathery ice crystal, typically displaying delicate sixfold symmetry.
 
2. INFORMAL•DEROGATORY
     A very sensitive person. Someone who is easily hurt or offended by the statements or actions of others.

 

 

Lol, setting aside all conversation about the VCS for a second-- I didn't even know this was a thing. o 3 o 

I'm not going to pick sides here, but personally I don't like that term... I'm willing to bet it was made up by someone on the internet in the last 15 years, and it's just a term to give people an excuse to be assholes to other people. But that's just me. LOL.

Edited December 3, 2019 by Lodmot

[ColecoJoe]

It's getting chilly in here

 

[Lodmot]

2 minutes ago, ColecoJoe said:

It's getting chilly in here

 

We got a foot of snow here in Eastern US. ;3

[JBerel]

9 minutes ago, Mockduck said:

Not sensitive, just pushing back against the harassment from Playswithwolves. Doesn't make me a snowflake to defend myself against a personal attack. Calling me out on the forums, circling a Facebook post, then harassing me does indeed make one a snowflake, especially since I wasn't talking to this person. They have been on my ignore list for a while due to harassment. Unfortunately, this kind of harassment is happening not just here from Playswithwolves and a few other big names here. You'd think as adults I wouldn't have to deal with middle school bullies, but there ya go. 

[jaybird3rd]

54 minutes ago, Mockduck said:

Thanks for the harassment, snowflake dirtbag. Keep moving that goal post!

How is it "harassment" or a "personal attack" to draw a circle around a public comment that you voluntarily wrote and posted under your own name?  Whether or not you were previously talking to the person who did it is irrelevant; if you don't want anyone commenting on whatever it is that you have to say, don't say it in a public forum.

 

I'd also love to know how we're "moving the goal posts."  As far as I can tell, we still have the same position that we've held for months.  I didn't think I'd have to post this again so soon, but here you go, from way back in mid-June:

 

On 6/11/2019 at 5:11 PM, jaybird3rd said:

The argument hasn't been that they will release *nothing*, but that what they finally *do* release will fail to live up to the hype, because KookyFrenchGuyAtari does not have the necessary talent or resources to create anything sufficiently different from other alternatives to justify the $3M that they raised from crowdfunding. When "that Ataribox?" finally does ship—whatever it ends up being—and when the True Believers inevitably claim that this somehow "proves the naysayers wrong," they will only be setting up a straw man.

[TankedThomas]

On 12/2/2019 at 12:37 PM, bonehead said:

I believe I got the free "bonus" promised to early backers for the delay.  Just in time for Thanksgiving weekend too.

 

Long time listener, first time caller.  I'll hang up and listen.  Love the show.  

Welcome, fellow hater and troll! ?

On 12/3/2019 at 5:51 AM, Zoyx said:

Weird. Must be a RAM issue, because it has the same APU.

 

I believe these units can be upgraded to 16 GB.

At only 4GB, it could be a RAM issue, but the real issue is really just Ryzen Embedded. 

 

Besides, I'd assume they've cheaper out with a single SODIMM slot. If they have, you'll need to buy a single stick and won't have dual-channel memory. But I guess we'll see...

On 12/3/2019 at 6:41 AM, Flojomojo said:

So, "Atari" is a background joke in a cult movie from the 1980s, as well as its poorly-performing sequel. That certainly reflects well on the lifestyle brand. You too can be a part of the dystopic future! Hunt artificial people in the rain and wonder why you didn't leave Earth like the smart people. 

DON'T FORGET ABOUT THE SPE-

Quote

And no, Biffy, there won't be a native "Export to ATARI VCS" feature in Unity, because if there is, I will buy and eat a SpeakerHat (Blade Runner version).

Well okay then. Guess you remembered about that fantastic movie tie-in after all. ?

 

I feel bad for whoever the Hollywood goon was who made that marketing choice. And I hate Hollywood. 

22 hours ago, keithbk said:

 

Hopefully nobody pees on Atari's one though. 

21 hours ago, Lodmot said:

It will be my own nifty little streaming box, and an emulation device for Atari 2600, 5200, 7800 and Atari Jaguar games (and perhaps some MAME). But that's all it's going to be.

I can't BELIEVE you'd forget about the 2500 and XT! ARE YOU EVEN A TRUE FAN?

21 hours ago, Zoyx said:

Internal storage... it has an m.2 slot.

 

It has plenty of power. It'll be able to play esport games at 60 fps.

It may be internal, but it's still a separate part you need to buy separately. 

20 hours ago, Zoyx said:

Rocket League and Overwatch will run fine.

A 500 GB m.2 costs $60. Less if you catch a sale.

See, if you'd said League of Legends or DOTA, I might have agreed.

 

Rocket League will run like crap (but should be playable at toaster quality), but I highly doubt Overwatch will ever run well enough on Ryzen Embedded to play it properly.

 

Keep dreaming. 

20 hours ago, Flojomojo said:

A wikipedia entry without a citation is not proof. 

 

But the October Medium Update does count, "Atari" did say that recently. It's a change from what they have said repeatedly in the past. Kurt is correct!

 

To be fair, the M.2 slot is visible on their prototype board. I believe I was the first person to point it out.

 

But as a fan of M.2 SSDs due to the speed and convenience (for my use cases, anyway - I do video editing, among other stuff, which actually benefits from NVME speeds), I don't understand this choice from a consumer point of view. Sure, it takes up a lot less space, but they cost more.

 

Plus, if they used a regular 2.5" SATA connection like on the PS4, you could use an SSD OR a hard drive, with the latter being significantly cheaper for more storage. 

19 hours ago, Zoyx said:

Yeah, I plan on buying one when it is released. I'm currently not a backer.

Why not build or buy an existing PC that is more powerful for the same price or less, such as the AliExpress ones I pointed out a couple of days ago? If this is a product you want, why not spend the same amount of money on getting a better product than the VCS?

17 hours ago, Zoyx said:

Can an Xbox be used as a web server, vpn server, ad-blocker, plex server, network storage?

 

An Atari VCS can.

If it is released, then yes, it could be all of things. 

 

The question is: would you wantit to be any of those things?

 

My answer: hell no.

 

If you want an ad blocker, either use PiHole (Raspberry Pis are way cheaper) or use software on your modem/router.

Personally, I just use custom firmware and Entware on my ASUS router to run Skynet (firewall) and Diversion (ad blocker) - it basically works the same as a PiHole setup but it's on my existing device, so it costs me nothing but a bit of maintenance/setup time. 

 

If you want a NAS, build or buy a dedicated NAS. Nobody sane uses a single M.2 drive and some NAND flash as a NAS. 

 

As for a VPN server, most people don't even need VPNs, especially if they're not doing (confidential) business and the like. If they do... You can just set it up on any old PC you could buy for a few dollars on eBay or at a flea market or such. 

 

For a media server, you preferably want something that is powerful enough to transcode well (which would be a given in this case because you specified Plex). Ryzen Embedded isn't going to be up to that task. 

 

Finally, as a web developer myself, I would never, ever, ever, ever run a web server on such a crappy machine. Hell, I'd sooner run one on a Raspberry Pi. 

17 hours ago, Zoyx said:

It's a PC with access to the Atari Store. Pretty simple, actually.

As I said previously, slapping Atari's name on Debian's Synaptic Package Manager doesn't magically make it their own Atari Store. 

17 hours ago, Zoyx said:

Dunno. They might have it set up so you can purchase and download only within the Atari linux distro. Or not.

 

Another question is whether the AtariOS will be installable on other PCs.

The former may be possible depending on the code used. 

 

The latter is not. If it's Linux, it has to be open source, and thus yes, anyone can download it and install it on their own computer. See SteamOS as an example. 

16 hours ago, Zoyx said:

 

This one glitched the hell out. Will have to re-quote and edit my post shortly. Smartphones sure are dumb despite the name... 

[digdugnate]

can't we all just.. get along?

 

[H.Hannig]

Does anybody here know if it is finally possible to watch netflix in UHD/4K on a linux device?
Last time I checked there was no way to do so due to DRM/Drivers.

[Mockduck]

1 hour ago, jaybird3rd said:

How is it "harassment" or a "personal attack" to draw a circle around a public comment that you voluntarily wrote and posted under your own name?  Whether or not you were previously talking to the person who did it is irrelevant; if you don't want anyone commenting on whatever it is that you have to say, don't say it in a public forum.

 

I'd also love to know how we're "moving the goal posts."  As far as I can tell, we still have the same position that we've held for months.  I didn't think I'd have to post this again so soon, but here you go, from way back in mid-June:

 

Keep in mind that Playswithwolves has been harassing and stalking me for a couple of years now. Frankly, it's gotten quite creepy, and I'm sick of it. Note that he is the one who sent the notifications into my inbox deliberately by at'ing me. If my forum account here hadn't been at'd by a creepy stalker, I wouldn't have had a problem with it at all. After all, I stand by the Facebook post. 

 

Added: Also note that despite this behavior being visible for quite some time and me politely asking the mods here to do something about it, they don't, so I chose to respond publicly rather than my usual tactic of just ignoring it. Guess he's a cool kid and gets special treatment.

 

Mods: I've looked at how to just delete my forum account here, and can't seem to do it. Please feel free to do so. If I want to return, I'll do it on an account no longer linked to my real name so the creepier side of the Internet here doesn't engage in this kind of behavior again. 

Edited December 3, 2019 by Mockduck

[TankedThomas]

17 hours ago, Zoyx said:

It's a thing, from Rob Wyatt over a year ago:

 

17 hours ago, Zoyx said:

 

“Our core architecture consists of the Atari Secure Hypervisor and a heavily modified linux kernel called the AtariOS. All of this is in flash memory and before the AtariOS loads, any external storage device is checked, and if a bootable device is found, the OtherOS on that device is loaded instead.

We don’t have a typical OS loader like UBoot or GRUB, and because the CPU is already in 64 bit protected mode from our boot code, the OtherOS will need its typical startup code changing.”

Haven't figured out how to/if I can move quotes around on my phone so just going to make this a separate post to save myself trouble (and because I'll probably forget if I leave it until I'm on my computer). 

 

Disclaimer: I'm not an expert on this stuff, just an enthusiast and hobbyist, but I'm going to try to break down what Rob Wyatt was talking about and why it could be problematic if this remains true. Incoming technobabble shite (still makes more sense than half of Voyager's dialogue though). 

 

First, as someone else mentioned, without a traditional bootloader, theoretically the only way to boot in Atari OS, if your SSD has other operating systems on it, will be to remove the SSD. Sounds amazing.

 

But since it's all Linux, I don't see any reason you couldn't put a bootloader such as GRUB or rEFInd on it. In fact, if you install another Linux distro that isn't Atari OS, it'll typically ask you to install a bootloader anyway.

 

Bootloaders these days are mostly automatic and easy to use but they can still cause issues or be a pain to deal with from time to time, especially when Windows (or macOS) is involved. Not the best idea for people with the mental capacity of a toddler...

 

Anyway, next point is he says that Atari OS will be a heavily modified Linux kernel. Now, this is either misleading or he's an idiot (or both).

Whilst the kernel is technically the (main part of the) operating system, the distro itself is what we usually think of as the operating system. 

But regardless, a heavily modified version is technically allowed according to the GPL open source license. Whether they abide by that is another question (doubtful though). 

 

Still, that doesn't magically make it not Linux, and I doubt that a heavily modified kernel is something they're even capable of, unless we're talking about Atari rolling their own kernel with optimisation patches and such.

I guess with enough of those, it could be considered "highly modified", but that'd be a weasely way to word it at best. 

([url=https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kernel_(operating_system)]Info on kernels here[/url])

 

The main point here though is that Rob is confusing Atari OS (theoretically should be a Linux distro) with a kernel. So which is it? Is Atari OS its own full distro (possibly with a custom Linux kernel), or is it just the kernel? He makes it sound like it's just the kernel.

Either that, or he has no idea what he's talking about, because the distro isn't the kernel nor vice versa (though a distro typically contains a kernel).

To clarify: Rob is saying Atari OS will be a modified kernel. Does that mean Atari OS is ONLY a modified kernel (for an existing distro?), or does he not know the difference between the two...?

 

Finally, based on what he said, it sounds like that last bit is about Secure Boot. This is a major red flag (as if we needed more). I'm a bit of a newbie to Secure Boot but let me give a quick run-down of how it works:

Secure Boot is enabled in UEFI (colloquially called BIOS, but technically they're two separate things - UEFI is basically our modern replacement for BIOS, becoming commonplace ~10 years ago). 

 

Secure Boot requires an OS to be signed with a key it recognises in order to boot said OS. 

 

Every time the OS has a kernel update (Windows and Mac have these too), the key bust be regenerated. This process can be automated but, at least for Linux, this requires manual setup before it can then be automated (not the most straightforward task but it's doable). 

 

If there is no traditional UEFI (such as on Mac), Secure Boot (for additional operating systems added by the user, anyway) isn't possible to my knowledge - macOS has its own implementation on newer devices with the T2 chip - though this can be turned off (for now), it's locked to any OS that Apple signs - you cannot sign them yourself, which is a trick Atari could copy if they wanted to do so.

In other words, as far as I'm aware, if the UEFI cannot be written to, you cannot tell it which keys are valid. 

 

In this case, I would assume it already has the Atari OS key and is capable of regenerating it when the OS is updated. But if you tried to install another OS and it couldn't write its key to the UEFI, Secure Boot would fail and your other OS wouldn't boot. 

Which would mean Sandbox Mode is a no-go. 

There are always workarounds, of course, but that's besides the point.

 

Now, that's a big IF. I doubt anyone could screw up this big. It's possible to do this though, even though my specifics may be a little off (like I said, newbie on the subject, and I'm tired, so please forgive me if I made any mistakes). If anyone is more knowledgeable on kernels and Secure Boot and such, please feel free to chime in and correct me. 

But as far as I can tell, Rob's implementation at least has the potential to completely kill Sandbox Mode. 

 

Some further reading on Secure Boot I'd recommend if anyone is interested in learning more (and stuff I'll undoubtedly be re-reading to brush up):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unified_Extensible_Firmware_Interface#Secure_boot

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Secure_Boot (great wiki even for non-Arch distros)

http://www.rodsbooks.com/efi-bootloaders/secureboot.html (Rod is an absolute genius on this stuff)

http://www.rodsbooks.com/efi-bootloaders/controlling-sb.html

[TankedThomas]

31 minutes ago, H.Hannig said:

Does anybody here know if it is finally possible to watch netflix in UHD/4K on a linux device?
Last time I checked there was no way to do so due to DRM/Drivers.

There was a useragent workaround that was blocked by Netflix. That's the only method I'm aware of. Firefox and Chrome can both run Netflix on Linux now, as of last year, but that's about it. 

I really wish they'd sort this out. It only encouraged people to pirate instead. 

[PlaysWithWolves]

16 minutes ago, Mockduck said:

Keep in mind that Playswithwolves has been harassing and stalking me for a couple of years now. Frankly, it's gotten quite creepy, and I'm sick of it. Note that he is the one who sent the notifications into my inbox deliberately by at'ing me. If my forum account here hadn't been at'd by a creepy stalker, I wouldn't have had a problem with it at all. After all, I stand by the Facebook post. 

 

I barely know you.  Your name is in your profile and on your frigging avatar picture.  I was perusing Facebook comments and recognized the name.  I "at'd" you because I knew you lurked(stalked?) here and didn't want to seem like I was being sneaky.

 

You have the wrong person, or are delusional, or are trying to deflect from overreacting in the first place.

[Matt_B]

3 hours ago, AtariLeaf said:

In Australia it can actually be a positive

Well, you might get close friends calling each other cunts as a term of endearment but it's still more usually used for someone that you find contemptible.

 

It's not a "wow! did you actually say that?" word like it is in parts of the US though.

[JaqenHghar]

2 hours ago, Mockduck said:

Keep moving that goal post!

 

I mean this in all sincerity, with no sarcasm or snark: people often make the mistake of thinking critics are united and of one mind. We're all individuals with our individual concerns and objections.

 

What one perceives as "moving the goal posts" by critics is often just one set of critics with one set of objections dying down, and another becoming louder. Individually, no one's criticism changed. No goal posts are moved. There are just a bunch of different people with different goal posts.

 

Personally my criticism has always been that Atari is showing great incompetence at this and the product sounds underwhelming even if/when they eventually get it done. I expect they will get it done but it will be half-assed because it seems like it's stretched them to the limit just to get this far. And yeah maybe I couldn't do better if I did it myself but I'm competent enough to know I shouldn't claim otherwise... and I definitely wouldn't have take people's money up front on promises I wouldn't be qualified to keep at the time I made them. But I do believe they're trying. I personally think it's been more a "fake it 'til you make it" scenario than a deliberate grift.

 

But if everyone who put money on this is happy in the end then from your perspective, sure, mission accomplished. From my perspective they'll still appear to have been incompetent. Both can be true at the same time.