New Atari Console that Ataribox?

[jaybird3rd]

35 minutes ago, PlaysWithWolves said:

Tommy's doing a lot right, and clearly is passionate and has information we don't. But maybe not take the volume to 11 any time concerns are raised would be a good thing?

Fair enough.  Tommy's response didn't strike me as unduly lengthy, given the points that Flojo raised.  But, I can see your point, too.

[Lodmot]

Here's my 2 cents:

 

Both @Flojomojo and @Tommy Tallarico raised valid points and feedback. I think the discussion overall was handled in a very civil fashion, so props there to you both.

I'm of the stance that criticism and positivity/compliments are both necessary for things like this. If you have too much criticism to make, the person taking the criticism won't know what they're doing right, and it can get to feel more like an attack rather than constructive criticism.

 

If there's too many compliments, then the person taking them will feel like they're doing absolutely no wrong, even if they are. 

As a person I tend to lean more towards positivity, because that's just how I am. It depends on my mood I guess though. LOL.

[Flojomojo]

Is this news? It was to me.

 

So the factory OS will be soldered to the board (there's always a way to erase these things), but you can bring your own internal SSD for another OS. Sweet spot for this kind of storage (assuming the common 2280 format) is ~$50 for 500GB. External would be cheaper and more versatile, but slower. 

 

 

 

[Lodmot]

30 minutes ago, Flojomojo said:

Is this news? It was to me.

 

So the factory OS will be soldered to the board (there's always a way to erase these things), but you can bring your own internal SSD for another OS. Sweet spot for this kind of storage (assuming the common 2280 format) is ~$50 for 500GB. External would be cheaper and more versatile, but slower. 

 

 

 

I don't think it was "news" per say, but Atari did a horrible job at communicating the actual configuration until that comment. 

It's obviously a "dual-boot" setup that they'll have with it, to make Sandbox mode work.

Pretty simple-- upon turning on the console it looks for an M.2 drive. If one is connected and it has a bootable partition on it, the console will give you the option to boot from it. 

Basically the same as how a regular PC's "boot device selection" screen works before Windows loads up.

[godslabrat]

1 hour ago, Flojomojo said:

It was meant as (admittedly faint) praise, but the constant drum-beating for the thing has been frankly exhausting. I don't care about research data, I don't know how the thing will sell, I certainly don't care what buyers at big box stores think. Not my circus, not my monkey. I just know what the barriers to entry would be for me, a consumer, who is generally interested in this kind of thing. 

Agreed.  FWIW, I think Tommy is a good guy who is passionately developing a real product for actual customers.  I don't predict I, myself, will be one of them.  I've got my reasons.  I encourage Tommy to continue participating, but hope he realizes there are lots of people who know he's on the level and still aren't in.

[Flojomojo]

 

The Atari VCS console could be coming sooner than you think

 

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On their website, Atari have kept things vague. At the moment we can see the promise that the VCS will be “shipping early 2020!” They love an exclamation mark at Atari, but we’ll have to wait and see whether the VCS is worth all the excitement.

 

 

Quote

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[TankedThomas]

3 hours ago, Tommy Tallarico said:

 

I respect your opinion... and understand why you would feel that way... but the data and research (and major big box brick and mortar retailers who know their customers) disagree with your thoughts.

 

Families do in fact want a simple and easy to use physical hardware device that everyone can play.  We (and big investors) know the data.  Its been 13 years since the Wii and everyone has been waiting for the follow up.

 

The "mobile" arguement also doesn't work in this instance as CASUAL and stuff for kids is ALL solitary now.  And everyone knows how predatory mobile is in regards to $$.  There is no simple and affordable system to play together as a family.  And its not Switch.  Again... the data shows the opposite and Nintendo in fact has the most adult content, the most difficult parental controls and the most confusing home console marketplace (and with the least overall quality for home consoles). Wanna play 4 player?  Most Switch games would require at least 2 (sometimes 4) consoles or multiple controllers and $40+ purchases.

 

Finally... in regards to our App download numbers.  We have yet to spend a single dime of our $11M marketing campaign.  Way too early.  It doesnt start until the end of next summer.  So until then, we're just focusing on the hardcore retro gamers who are paying attention.  Spending zero money. The real "sign" of things to come should be in all the comments and Like to Dislike ratios on any of our videos.  Read the comments.  See what people are saying. That is only going to be magnified a million times when the time is right.  We haven't even begun our marketing or ad spends at all.  

 

Out of respect I don't want to hijack this thread so please feel free to carry on the discussion in my Intellivision thread. I don't mind giving folks more info and having respectful discussions with folks.

 

Again, I understand why you may think the way you do... but when you dive a little deeper you will find that our future looks more positive than you may initially thought.  

 

Admittedly, I have my doubts too, but as of now, I'm quite keen to buy an Amico. I hope it does succeed. I'm just not so sure there are enough people who care. 

 

And don't get me wrong, I agree on a lot of your points about modern gaming (especially how the majority of mobile games are just aggressively monetised, manipulative BS), but at least from where I'm sitting, people are too obsessed with streaming services and garbage social media to often care about these things, and will buy whichever big console is a success next (probably the next Xbox, assuming Microsoft and Sony are still taking turns at being the greediest scumbag company). 

 

Anyway, I need to pop over to the Amico thread later and pick your brain more. Not sure how much more you can say about the hardware right now but I'm very curious. 

2 hours ago, Lodmot said:

If Atari actually does in fact have a proprietary UI for the VCS though, on which you can add people as friends and stuff like their concept animations suggest, then I propose everyone that got suckered into backing the unit (including myself) adds each other as VCS friends, just as a gag.. LOL

Do you REALLY want to be friends with the Werner Bros. and Looney Lucas?

50 minutes ago, Flojomojo said:

Is this news? It was to me.

 

So the factory OS will be soldered to the board (there's always a way to erase these things), but you can bring your own internal SSD for another OS. Sweet spot for this kind of storage (assuming the common 2280 format) is ~$50 for 500GB. External would be cheaper and more versatile, but slower. 

 

 

 

Nah, we've known for a while but it was always poorly communicated, as @Lodmot said. If I remember correctly though, it's meant to be a 32GB eMMC NAND max, so... you'll get about 25GB or so for your games. 

 

But yes, I believe it's standard M.2 size, best I can tell from their photos. Personally, I'd recommend sticking to Samsung or Western Digital drives. Some of the cheaper ones like Adata aren't as reliable (though if it's not for important information, it should be fine). 

 

External might be fine if it were USB 3.1, but they're calling it USB 3.0 (the 1606G supports up to 3.1). This could be them confusing the (admittedly confusing mess of) names, but if it's the slower one... Ouch. 

 

Speaking of which, I looked into the Ryzen 1606G more and... I was wrong. It's a 14nm Zen chip made by Global Foundries, NOT a 12nm Zen+ chip from TSMC. Even though it came out this year. From what little information I can find, it should theoretically get out-performed even by AMD's first generation of mobile Zen processors. Oh, and as far as IO goes, they've almost used up all potential ports for the CPU. That's how limited this thing is. It's not designed for this sort of use. 

All of which is obviously bad. News flash, I guess. 

15 minutes ago, Lodmot said:

I don't think it was "news" per say, but Atari did a horrible job at communicating the actual configuration until that comment. 

It's obviously a "dual-boot" setup that they'll have with it, to make Sandbox mode work.

Pretty simple-- upon turning on the console it looks for an M.2 drive. If one is connected and it has a bootable partition on it, the console will give you the option to boot from it. 

Basically the same as how a regular PC's "boot device selection" screen works before Windows loads up.

Based on what Rob Wyatt said previously, it's more like a Mac, where it lacks a traditional bootloader, but supposedly you won't be able to even bring up boot device options like any other computer - according to information previously posted, it seems it'll bypass the internal OS when the M.2 is plugged in, and you'll need to remove it to boot Debi- I mean, Atari OS. 

[+frankodragon]

 

 

                 

 

 It's like the scene in Beavis and Butthead Do America with the automatic flushing urinals.

 

 

[PlaysWithWolves]

 

On Reddit, Pdubs posted Atari's email to wannabe developer's:

 

Developing for the Atari VCS

Thank you for expressing interest in developing content for the Atari VCS. 

As we continue working towards the consumer launch of the Atari VCS, we want to provide you with information about the VCS development environment. Our goal is to make this an easy process for developers looking to create new content or repurpose existing games and applications.

How to Get Started
You can start developing for the Atari VCS right away with Unity or standard Linux tools.

Unity: Most non-VR games and apps developed in Unity will be readily compatible with the Atari VCS. (If you are working developing for VR please contact us at Dev@Atari.com.) We are working with Unity and other popular development engine makers on specific guidance for porting content to the Atari VCS and will provide more details as soon as we have them.  (Some Unity resources: https://unity.com/)

Linux: The Atari VCS uses a version of the Debian Linux OS and supports games and apps developed using standard 64-bit Linux code, APIs and tools. You can expect a large majority of Linux-compatible content to be fully compatible with the Atari VCS (Some Debian resources: https://www.debian.org/)

Finalizing compatibility will involve testing your content on actual Atari VCS hardware and controllers when it becomes available in early 2020. 

Submission and Approval: Atari will be implementing a submission portal and approval process for getting games or apps into the Atari store. Stay tuned for more information, including a link to the registration form for our developer program and additional support and documentation. 

Revenue Sharing: Publishers and developers will receive 88 percent royalty on all Atari VCS-exclusive titles, and an 80 percent royalty on non-exclusive titles, approved and placed in the Atari VCS store.

For more information about the Atari VCS, including up-to-date hardware specs, please visit https://medium.com/@atarivcs.

Thanks again for your interest. More to come!

-- The Atari VCS Team

[Tavi]

12 minutes ago, PlaysWithWolves said:

 

On Reddit, Pdubs posted Atari's email to wannabe developer's:

 

Developing for the Atari VCS

Thank you for expressing interest in developing content for the Atari VCS. 

As we continue working towards the consumer launch of the Atari VCS, we want to provide you with information about the VCS development environment. Our goal is to make this an easy process for developers looking to create new content or repurpose existing games and applications.

How to Get Started
You can start developing for the Atari VCS right away with Unity or standard Linux tools.

Unity: Most non-VR games and apps developed in Unity will be readily compatible with the Atari VCS. (If you are working developing for VR please contact us at Dev@Atari.com.) We are working with Unity and other popular development engine makers on specific guidance for porting content to the Atari VCS and will provide more details as soon as we have them.  (Some Unity resources: https://unity.com/)

Linux: The Atari VCS uses a version of the Debian Linux OS and supports games and apps developed using standard 64-bit Linux code, APIs and tools. You can expect a large majority of Linux-compatible content to be fully compatible with the Atari VCS (Some Debian resources: https://www.debian.org/)

Finalizing compatibility will involve testing your content on actual Atari VCS hardware and controllers when it becomes available in early 2020. 

Submission and Approval: Atari will be implementing a submission portal and approval process for getting games or apps into the Atari store. Stay tuned for more information, including a link to the registration form for our developer program and additional support and documentation. 

Revenue Sharing: Publishers and developers will receive 88 percent royalty on all Atari VCS-exclusive titles, and an 80 percent royalty on non-exclusive titles, approved and placed in the Atari VCS store.

For more information about the Atari VCS, including up-to-date hardware specs, please visit https://medium.com/@atarivcs.

Thanks again for your interest. More to come!

-- The Atari VCS Team

Wuf...

Well if this is accurate, I guess that puts and end to any speculation this is going to be essentially a micro-PC running Linux in a Atari shell.

But on the plus side, if it is just a fancy skinned PC they might actually be able to actually build and release it without too many further delays?

[+Andrew Davie]

17 minutes ago, PlaysWithWolves said:

 

Revenue Sharing: Publishers and developers will receive 88 percent royalty on all Atari VCS-exclusive titles, and an 80 percent royalty on non-exclusive titles, approved and placed in the Atari VCS store.

Not that I'd ever consider development for this "platform", but those royalties seem pretty steep to me.  You write a game, with your own IP, you spend all your own time and resources to get it done, and then you plonk it on the VCS "store" and they take up to 20% of the profit. I don't think they're going to have a lot of takers for that business model. That's my 2c as a "developer" such as the title applies to me, anyway.

[CPUWIZ]

8 minutes ago, Andrew Davie said:

Not that I'd ever consider development for this "platform", but those royalties seem pretty steep to me.  You write a game, with your own IP, you spend all your own time and resources to get it done, and then you plonk it on the VCS "store" and they take up to 20% of the profit. I don't think they're going to have a lot of takers for that business model. That's my 2c as a "developer" such as the title applies to me, anyway.

 

Wouldn't fly with me, because the user base is going to be very low.  Sony, maybe.

[Matt_B]

It's slightly better than Steam's royalty rate of 70%. However, I suspect most devs will still take the market of 90 million over 10 thousand.

 

88% is parity with the Epic store, although Epic also cover the royalties for UE with that.

 

Atari are probably just wishlisting here though. This requires considerable back end infrastructure and development, and they haven't even shown us a rigged demo yet.

Edited December 11, 2019 by Matt_B
Added info

[+Nathan Strum]

11 hours ago, Tommy Tallarico said:

This is what personally perplexes me about the VCS.  I don't want to "pile on", but it seems like they don't understand (or at least communicate to their audience) that it's not the technology or hardware that make a new game system appealing (just ask Trip Hawkins and 3DO!).  It's the GAMES, the playability and the unique user experience.  Unfortunately over the past year or so they have not shown either of those things.  I've been in the industry over 30 years and I've never seen a game console not show games months before the release of the console.  By this summer (E3 in June) you'll see a TON of PS5 footage, Scarlett footage, more Amico of course, etc.  And they will all still be about 6 months from launch.  This is very typical. 

My simple advice to Atari would be this...

If AtariVCS wants to win over folks (including most of the folks in here!) all they need to do is show a bunch of unique games playing on their system.  It would go a VERY LONG way and win over a bunch of naysayers if the footage was epic and exciting.  It's pretty obvious.  But because they are not doing that... you need to ask yourself a question.  Why?  I think a lot of folks assume to know the answer.  Because it probably doesn't exist.

This right here is everything you need to know about why I'm critical of Atari.

 

Plug it in.

Play some games.

Or you have nothing.

[digdugnate]

1 hour ago, PlaysWithWolves said:

 

On Reddit, Pdubs posted Atari's email to wannabe developer's:

 

Developing for the Atari VCS

Thank you for expressing interest in developing content for the Atari VCS. 

As we continue working towards the consumer launch of the Atari VCS, we want to provide you with information about the VCS development environment. Our goal is to make this an easy process for developers looking to create new content or repurpose existing games and applications.

How to Get Started
You can start developing for the Atari VCS right away with Unity or standard Linux tools.

Unity: Most non-VR games and apps developed in Unity will be readily compatible with the Atari VCS. (If you are working developing for VR please contact us at Dev@Atari.com.) We are working with Unity and other popular development engine makers on specific guidance for porting content to the Atari VCS and will provide more details as soon as we have them.  (Some Unity resources: https://unity.com/)

Linux: The Atari VCS uses a version of the Debian Linux OS and supports games and apps developed using standard 64-bit Linux code, APIs and tools. You can expect a large majority of Linux-compatible content to be fully compatible with the Atari VCS (Some Debian resources: https://www.debian.org/)

Finalizing compatibility will involve testing your content on actual Atari VCS hardware and controllers when it becomes available in early 2020. 

Submission and Approval: Atari will be implementing a submission portal and approval process for getting games or apps into the Atari store. Stay tuned for more information, including a link to the registration form for our developer program and additional support and documentation. 

Revenue Sharing: Publishers and developers will receive 88 percent royalty on all Atari VCS-exclusive titles, and an 80 percent royalty on non-exclusive titles, approved and placed in the Atari VCS store.

For more information about the Atari VCS, including up-to-date hardware specs, please visit https://medium.com/@atarivcs.

Thanks again for your interest. More to come!

-- The Atari VCS Team

Darn, beat me to it.

[OCAT]

Me thinks Atari is in for a shock, Microsoft failed to get people to make apps for Windows phone, no matter how much money they threw at them and made porting easy, Atari want people to DEVELOP games for a platform that does not have ANY userbase WHATSOEVER!!!!
Do not forget that people are not going to wait an hour for games to download, the back end better be lickety split.

When you have only 10,000 units out in the wild, there cannot be any exclusives! a tripple AAA title would proabably need every owner of the console to buy a copy or the game... TWICE!! to cover the cost, much less turn a profit.

[Agillig]

2 hours ago, CPUWIZ said:

 

Wouldn't fly with me, because the user base is going to be very low.  Sony, maybe.

What was Nintendo raking in back in the 80's before they got hammered in court?

[Flojomojo]

Industry standard: store takes 30% (Google Play, Apple App Store, Steam)

 

New courtship ritual: store takes less for exclusive deals, recurring subscriptions. 
 

Both of these assume a very large installed base of customers. "Atari" is offering slightly more but it's not commensurate with how tiny it's potential reach might be. 
 

Some of the financial speculation from RedEye (which is highly suspect as a source) thought there might be some sharing deals with Steam or Epic. I'm not sure why the big guys would bother with "Atari."

 

They have no infrastructure of their own, no support team either. They're renting time from Xsolla, which they won't be able to sustain when (haha, "if," sure) demand fails to materialize. 
 

The supporters need to know that sustaining an online store takes large numbers of paying customers buying lots of content. The existence of content to buy depends on that happening quickly. Most real platforms have their launch titles and system sellers waiting in the wings, with buyers lining up to get the new good stuff. "Atari" has Atari Vault, which is a fine six-dollar collection of forty-year-old games. Whoo. 

 

i think it unlikely that most people will be fooled by the appearance of the "Atari Store."

[Agillig]

7 hours ago, bmadgames said:

Honestly, I think the Amico has a really good chance of success. As anyone with younger kids will tell you, today's consoles are way too complex for younger children (and expensive on top of that) then you add in all the other casuals who don't want to deal with an expensive complex console, I think the Amico can play in a huge market.

 

In my view, (based in my experience in the tech/retail industries), all of these streaming services targeted to casual games are far away from any mainstream success.

 

Think of value proposition of the Amico: Less than $200, can buy it at retailers (I assume), easy to set up, can be played by kids and adults, comes with 2 controllers and games. If the console is even half as great as promised, there could be a huge market here.

I think you underestimate the knowledge young kids have with technology.   Mine have no problem navigating the Xbox One OS.  Sure, it's not as easy as putting in an NES cart, pushing it down, and pushing the power button, but they manage just fine.

 

The Amico is an interesting device, to be sure.   I think they're really going to have to market the heck out of it.  People still remember the Atari name, which is why the VCS death march has lasted as long as it has.  A new Earthworm Jim game will definitely raise the interest of a chunk of the market. 

[Flojomojo]

7 minutes ago, Agillig said:

What was Nintendo raking in back in the 80's before they got hammered in court?

As a percentage? Don't know, but unlike "Atari," they held like 85% of the market. Nintendo forced publishers to buy cartridges from them, and they refused to buy back unsold merchandise. 
 

Digital distribution is much less risky, but "Atari" is arriving fifteen years too late to make a difference with their me-too service. If Xsolla charges based on consumption, maybe it won't cost them too much to keep a virtual store running. 
 

Fun fact: Atari's Greatest Hits (similar product from the same contracted developer as Atari Vault) has been delisted from the Google and Apple App Stores for years now. "Atari" does not have a great track record for keeping these things going. There are lots of community-based 2600 emulators in Google Play, though. I know whose contributions I value most. 

[MrBeefy]

7 hours ago, bmadgames said:

Honestly, I think the Amico has a really good chance of success. As anyone with younger kids will tell you, today's consoles are way too complex for younger children (and expensive on top of that) then you add in all the other casuals who don't want to deal with an expensive complex console, I think the Amico can play in a huge market.

 

In my view, (based in my experience in the tech/retail industries), all of these streaming services targeted to casual games are far away from any mainstream success.

 

Think of value proposition of the Amico: Less than $200, can buy it at retailers (I assume), easy to set up, can be played by kids and adults, comes with 2 controllers and games. If the console is even half as great as promised, there could be a huge market here.

I don't know. My one year old can hold a toy controller and understands buttons and the analogue. I mean he can't play my XboxOne but he is already starting to notice me playing. Kids are the first to adapt. Is those of us who are old or getting older who don't.

6 hours ago, jaybird3rd said:

Fair enough.  Tommy's response didn't strike me as unduly lengthy, given the points that Flojo raised.  But, I can see your point, too.

I will be the first to admit that I like the idea behind the Amico. I like the message. I know right now we are only seeing retro games, which while cool, is something we can get on our retro consoles. It makes sense that he is showing us those games.

 

BUT he needs to sometimes take a step back. I understand wanting to correct information and such. But I do believe he made the Pat and Ian thing worse by not backing down. It would have been easier and better to just quietly correct and say thanks for covering and that over time I hope your concerns are addressed or whatever etc.

 

Like I said so far I am a fan. Not 100% sold but I like how things are rolling, but I need to see more than just the retro. Right now in the Q&A thread there are a lot of fanboy type talk in which there is no wrong or concerns about this.

 

When the marketing kicks in we will know more. But I and others don't have the data. Yes Tommy does, but the details are in if it sells. Not if Flo or some others have concerns. I will be curious to see if peoples opinion around here changes when we start to see the 75% of games that aren't retro.

[JasperAK]

You know Atari could end the little brewhaha in this thread if they just posted an update or something about the games their machine will allow us to play. At least give us an update to let us know when they are going to post some gameplay footage or something.

 

I'm just sad that I don't expect to have any taco money next October... Wait, the Amico will be like $100 less than the Taco box. My family won't be able to live high on the hog, but we'll still be able to have tacos.

 

Uh oh, I just thought of something. Tommy, are the controllers taco resistant?

[MrBeefy]

11 minutes ago, JasperAK said:

You know Atari could end the little brewhaha in this thread if they just posted an update or something about the games their machine will allow us to play. At least give us an update to let us know when they are going to post some gameplay footage or something.

 

I'm just sad that I don't expect to have any taco money next October... Wait, the Amico will be like $100 less than the Taco box. My family won't be able to live high on the hog, but we'll still be able to have tacos.

 

Uh oh, I just thought of something. Tommy, are the controllers taco resistant?

Their bruhaha would be admitting their only games are the ones I got with my Flashback I bought almost a decade ago...

[Agillig]

44 minutes ago, JasperAK said:

You know Atari could end the little brewhaha in this thread if they just posted an update or something about the games their machine will allow us to play. At least give us an update to let us know when they are going to post some gameplay footage or something.

 

I'm just sad that I don't expect to have any taco money next October... Wait, the Amico will be like $100 less than the Taco box. My family won't be able to live high on the hog, but we'll still be able to have tacos.

 

Uh oh, I just thought of something. Tommy, are the controllers taco resistant?

They've indicated in the past you can use Sandbox mode to run emulators to play games.   Kinda strange to encourage a practice that is considered illegal by many, but whatever.  I suppose if all they're going to sell is a box I can run emulators, why wouldn't I just buy a Raspberry PI, or just use my laptop, since it has native apps?

 

So, I guess they could show MAME running and then say, "Look!  You can play Xmen vs Street Fighter on Atari VCS!"  Damn shady, and would probably get a wicked reaction from Capcom, but it would be a rare moment of honestly for Fred.

[RainbowCemetery]

with their ever expanding history of nonpayment i wouldn't care if the revenue split was 200%