New Genesis Flashback

[+-^CrossBow^-]

Edit: Oh, I also wanted to know if it's true 3 button controllers still don't work with the machine? Some reviews I've read seem to suggest they don't, which is crazy considering that's the controller model most people are likely to have in their attic/garage/closet.

 

I believe in the Kotaku article, they did test it with a standard 3 button controller and it did work on the games, but you loose the ability to easily access the menu options etc. But they did figure out a button combo to still do the rewind function. But basically, the standard controller did work with the games to play them.

[MantaNZ]

Emulation is still a choppy mess going by John Hancock's footage. There's clearly no quality control. B and C buttons for up/down in the menus? Seriously, WTF?

This sucks. I was hoping it would be properly fixed but I guess I'll wait and see what next year brings...

[aliensyndrome]

I don't know, it seems to be a bit of a mixed bag as far as choppiness goes. Sonic does look to be stuttering a little but Vectorman seems OK to me (though I'm not familiar with the game). I think it's tolerable, but not perfect and certainly not up to the standards of the SNES mini.

 

It's interesting that the Kotaku review mentions 3-button controller support when the Polygon review seems to suggest the opposite! They can't both be right... Perhaps polygon didn't bother testing a 3-button pad?

 

Anyway, a lot of people I'm sure would like to know how well this thing plays actual cartridges, particularly some of the more common games (after all, that's really the major selling point of this thing). Strange that not many reviewers so far have tried as many carts as they can.

 

Two of the reviews I've read complained about certain games not appearing on the system (like Streets of Rage, for example) yet they still didn't bother to see if a physical copy of the game will work in the machine. A shame really, because I can't think of a better game to test the Flashback's upgraded sound emulation.

Edited October 18, 2017 by aliensyndrome

[+-^CrossBow^-]

I don't know, it seems to be a bit of a mixed bag as far as choppiness goes. Sonic does look to be stuttering a little but Vectorman seems OK to me (though I'm not familiar with the game). I think it's tolerable, but not perfect and certainly not up to the standards of the SNES mini.

 

It's interesting that the Kotaku review mentions 3-button controller support when the Polygon review seems to suggest the opposite! They can't both be right... Perhaps polygon didn't bother testing a 3-button pad?

 

Anyway, a lot of people I'm sure would like to know how well this thing plays actual cartridges, particularly some of the more common games (after all, that's really the major selling point of this thing). Strange that not many reviewers so far have tried as many carts as they can.

 

Two of the reviews I've read complained about certain games not appearing on the system (like Streets of Rage, for example) yet they still didn't bother to see if a physical copy of the game will work in the machine. A shame really, because I can't think of a better game to test the Flashback's upgraded sound emulation.

 

I might try and pick one up just to do a battery of tests with different carts on it to see what does and doesn't work. I don't have nearly a complete collection as John Hancock and others do, but I do own over 340 different Genesis games not including a few homebrews that would be interesting to test on this once it is released.

[MantaNZ]

Maybe the slogan could be "The new Sega Genesis Flashback - it's tolerable!" lol.

[aliensyndrome]

 

I might try and pick one up just to do a battery of tests with different carts on it to see what does and doesn't work. I don't have nearly a complete collection as John Hancock and others do, but I do own over 340 different Genesis games not including a few homebrews that would be interesting to test on this once it is released.

 

That's a pretty impressive collection! I have about 50 at most, which is part of the reason why this Flashback console is tempting me. Just for the RPGs alone, I think it would be worth the price (and since they're unlikely to have performance related issues, I imagine they'll run perfectly). I'm sure once fans get their hands on the console we'll have a better idea how the compatibility holds up. I'd love to know if the Mega Games series of carts load (10 of my games are on compilation carts). I doubt it... I won't know until someone in Europe picks up a Flashback.

 

TBH, I'd be anxious testing out battery back up games in this thing, just in case it somehow wipes the old save files away. But not knowing exactly how battery back up worked in the old days, I don't know if the console will also load the old save files into memory too. Might be interesting to find out.

 

 

Maybe the slogan could be "The new Sega Genesis Flashback - it's tolerable!" lol.

 

Hey, tolerable is a huge step up compared to the previous models.

Edited October 18, 2017 by aliensyndrome

[Flojomojo]

The Sega Genesis Flashback doesn't let the cartridge save to the cartridge's internal battery at all; this was explained a few pages back. It "dumps" the cartridge ROM to the onboard emulator and plays from there. That's how you can get save states and rewinding.

 

The old SD system, the "Sega Genesis Classic Console" works more like the traditional Genesis, saving to cartridge.

 

It's a big trade-off. With the Flashback approach, you can save any game, anywhere. That's kinda neat. I presume it goes onto onboard flash. You can't move the save file anywhere, though, it's stuck in the system. That's not necessarily any worse than saving to cartridge, which has an onboard battery that WILL eventually die, and isn't portable, either.

 

I've said that the competition for these things isn't the original consoles, but other formats such as PC and console collections, and of course piracy. Pirate emulators have pause/rewind/save states, too -- and they let you move your save files around.

 

Tolerable is indeed a big step up. The little issues add up, though -- imperfect emulation + dorky menus are big minuses. Easy plug+play, cartridge support, and lots of licensed onboard games are nothing to sneeze at. I would have bought one sight unseen back in Aug/Sept before the delays, when this seemed like a total slam-dunk.

[+-^CrossBow^-]

I'm still curious about it for the fact that you can play the games through native HDMI. I'm curious how it looks, and if there is any noticeable lag as compared to my current setup with an actual Genesis using the HD Retrovision cables to the component input on my receiver and then to my TV directly. There isn't much lag at all but there is still some as the TV takes the 240p signal from the Genesis and upscales to 480i or at least that is what is displayed in the info when the Genesis is powered up.

 

And yes, Flojo is correct in that Bill stated a few posts back that the carts are literally just read and dumped and then played back in active memory on the console. So save states are where all the saving would be handled. I'm curious though on a game like sonic 3, which saves automatically to onboard non-volatile flash instead of needing a battery, if that game will still work or have issues when trying to auto save between levels?

 

Has sonic 3 been tested by anyone?

[derFunkenstein]

I'm still curious about it for the fact that you can play the games through native HDMI. I'm curious how it looks, and if there is any noticeable lag as compared to my current setup with an actual Genesis using the HD Retrovision cables to the component input on my receiver and then to my TV directly. There isn't much lag at all but there is still some as the TV takes the 240p signal from the Genesis and upscales to 480i or at least that is what is displayed in the info when the Genesis is powered up.

 

And yes, Flojo is correct in that Bill stated a few posts back that the carts are literally just read and dumped and then played back in active memory on the console. So save states are where all the saving would be handled. I'm curious though on a game like sonic 3, which saves automatically to onboard non-volatile flash instead of needing a battery, if that game will still work or have issues when trying to auto save between levels?

 

Has sonic 3 been tested by anyone?

This is what I was trying to figure out when this came up. And also what about the non-volatile RAM for the built-in games. Bill made it sound like I can't use a traditional save with Shining Force, instead having to rely on save states. That's about as backwards as it gets. Even bad emulators these days properly emulate and store SRAM.

[+-^CrossBow^-]

This is what I was trying to figure out when this came up. And also what about the non-volatile RAM for the built-in games. Bill made it sound like I can't use a traditional save with Shining Force, instead having to rely on save states. That's about as backwards as it gets. Even bad emulators these days properly emulate and store SRAM.

I believe you are correct in that you must use the save states for all games essentially. Again, it makes sense if it just dumps the code from the cart to memory then it doesn't contain the additional hardware to do this. You stated emulators do this, and you are correct. But they do so usually by writing a file that goes with the game. So I suppose it was just another thing to have to add to costs and potentially provide support for. I can see it from the design perspective. Why add in support for the different types of on cart saving if they can just create an all in one save state solution for everything played on it?

 

Is using save states instead of the onboard saves really a bad thing? You are still saving the game, in this case exactly where you left off. So I don't really consider it a deal breaker. Now if the games freak out and lock up because they are trying to write to hardware that doesn't exist, then yes.... that isn't such a great thing and that is why a list of games that work or do not and why should be available. But @Games obviously doesn't have access to the entire library of games physically to test this or else they would have such a list yes?

[derFunkenstein]

Is using save states instead of the onboard saves really a bad thing? You are still saving the game, in this case exactly where you left off. So I don't really consider it a deal breaker. Now if the games freak out and lock up because they are trying to write to hardware that doesn't exist, then yes.... that isn't such a great thing and that is why a list of games that work or do not and why should be available. But @Games obviously doesn't have access to the entire library of games physically to test this or else they would have such a list yes?

 

 

Making it one or the other is a bad thing. It doesn't have to be mutually exclusive. Especially for the on-board games, there is absolutely no excuse to not use SRAM emulation. This thing needs to be held to the same standards as Nintendo's offerings. The NES Classic and SNES Classic both provide save states AND SRAM for the games that need it. I don't want to have to remember to make a save state every time I quit a game.

 

In Shining Force or Sword of Vermillion (two built-in games! not cartridges! they're shipped on the system!), you go talk to the save dude and then you quit the game. Talking to the save dude is also required if the hero dies because that's where he'll respawn. So in Sword of Vermillion and Shining Force, I have to talk to the save dude in case the hero dies AND remember to make a save state because the save system on the console is totally broken.

 

I'm a huge Genesis fanatic. Of all the video game consoles that exist in this world, that's the one that gives me the warmest nostalgic feelings. I can deal with not every game I'd want to play being on this system, but I just revolt at the idea of the games not working as they were designed.

Edited October 19, 2017 by derFunkenstein

[Bill Loguidice]

If anyone wants to compile a list of concise "demands" and/or features that they think are not addressed by the current Genesis Flashback, I will be happy to pass those on. This will help inform some of the other changes we have planned for the 2018 model (keep in mind that an SD card slot is already being considered). Same thing for the Atari side (keeping in mind that cartridge and SD card slots are already being considered).

[+-^CrossBow^-]

 

 

Making it one or the other is a bad thing. It doesn't have to be mutually exclusive. Especially for the on-board games, there is absolutely no excuse to not use SRAM emulation. This thing needs to be held to the same standards as Nintendo's offerings. The NES Classic and SNES Classic both provide save states AND SRAM for the games that need it. I don't want to have to remember to make a save state every time I quit a game.

 

In Shining Force or Sword of Vermillion (two built-in games! not cartridges! they're shipped on the system!), you go talk to the save dude and then you quit the game. Talking to the save dude is also required if the hero dies because that's where he'll respawn. So in Sword of Vermillion and Shining Force, I have to talk to the save dude in case the hero dies AND remember to make a save state because the save system on the console is totally broken.

 

I'm a huge Genesis fanatic. Of all the video game consoles that exist in this world, that's the one that gives me the warmest nostalgic feelings. I can deal with not every game I'd want to play being on this system, but I just revolt at the idea of the games not working as they were designed.

 

Do we know for a fact in the case of Sword of Vermillion and Shining Force if this is how we save the game on those two included ones? I've not actually seen how that is handled or discussed in any of the reviews was it? Because if that does work, then it would mean that at least some of sram emulation was put in but just for those specific titles, or they were rewritten to emulate this in a different way specific to the FB hardware?

[derFunkenstein]

 

Do we know for a fact in the case of Sword of Vermillion and Shining Force if this is how we save the game on those two included ones? I've not actually seen how that is handled or discussed in any of the reviews was it? Because if that does work, then it would mean that at least some of sram emulation was put in but just for those specific titles, or they were rewritten to emulate this in a different way specific to the FB hardware?

 

Going back to Bill's comments about the save system a couple pages back, it's save states only, even for built-in games.

 

@Bill: I'd certainly appreciate it if you can pass along. I think my list of wants is fairly small and basic:

 

For 2018

* SRAM support (for both built-in and cart games)

* Address whatever is causing lag I'm seeing in videos (and people are mentioning in said videos - Polygon's review is still brutal)

* A low-pass filter on the audio. It's what made the original Genesis sound nice. Vids I've watched sound shrill

* Just dump the "Bonus" games. It'd be nice if SoR and TJ&E were represented, but the junk just for the sake of numbers has to go.

 

I don't care about the menu navigation, because I'll adjust. It seems weird but I've dealt with worse UIs. I'm happy to hear that SD slot is being considered (so it's not on my list). Please make sure AtGames knows they're just going to be compared to Nintendo's offerings, and subpar emulation and shovel ware are going to be marks against them, even if it is priced $10 lower. I (like everyone in this thread) love the Genesis and want to see it represented well in the 21st century. AtGames has been entrusted with it and so far none of their products are must-haves. The 2017 is close but it still seems to need some love, and I hope they really put some thought into what's going to put it on par with the SNES Classic.

[Flojomojo]

If anyone wants to compile a list of concise "demands" and/or features that they think are not addressed by the current Genesis Flashback, I will be happy to pass those on. This will help inform some of the other changes we have planned for the 2018 model (keep in mind that an SD card slot is already being considered). Same thing for the Atari side (keeping in mind that cartridge and SD card slots are already being considered).

 

I'd like to see:

1. smaller system footprint (is there a lot of empty air space in the current Sega Flashback?)
2. USB power, no proprietary brick
3. rechargeable batteries in the controller, if possible (understandable this would drive up cost)
4. bluetooth controllers (with option to bring your own)
5. SD card, not only for ROMs, but to move/preserve save game progress
6. SRAM would be "nice" ... is that feasible if you're running off a cartridge?
7. lose the bonus games.
8. more licensed stuff would be most welcome. There aren't any sports games on the Flashback! Add EA games, Tengen games, Capcom games
9. Everdrive support (if SD card is not present)
10. Wide retail availability.
11. Demo kiosks or better marketing. Head off the haters at the pass with a true kickass product.
12. Intuitive menu navigation. I'm sorry but this is the single thing that's keeping me away right now. I'll probably get one anyway, and like DerF says below, I'll probably adjust, but a nice GUI needs to come standard.

Also this

I don't care about the menu navigation, because I'll adjust. It seems weird but I've dealt with worse UIs. I'm happy to hear that SD slot is being considered (so it's not on my list). Please make sure AtGames knows they're just going to be compared to Nintendo's offerings, and subpar emulation and shovel ware are going to be marks against them, even if it is priced $10 lower. I (like everyone in this thread) love the Genesis and want to see it represented well in the 21st century. AtGames has been entrusted with it and so far none of their products are must-haves. The 2017 is close but it still seems to need some love, and I hope they really put some thought into what's going to put it on par with the SNES Classic.

[Bill Loguidice]

Thanks. Keep them coming. And yes, USB-based power is definitely under consideration, though miniUSB instead of microUSB for technical reasons.

[Flojomojo]

Thanks. Keep them coming. And yes, USB-based power is definitely under consideration, though miniUSB instead of microUSB for technical reasons.

 

If the new one is to come out in 2018, how about USB C?

[+-^CrossBow^-]

I had a thought on menu navigation. Since there are already extra buttons on the provided controllers...couldn't you set it up so that maybe one of the 3 primary buttons on the controller just switches between the left menu and right menu areas?

 

This way you default it to the left hand menu area and just use the up and down on the controller to move between options. Press like the A button to select that option or better, have it then switch to the right hand side automatically and then use like the B or C button as the Back button.

 

This is similar to how the menus work on many flash carts. Don't see why something like that couldn't be implemented here as well?

[Bill Loguidice]

I had a thought on menu navigation. Since there are already extra buttons on the provided controllers...couldn't you set it up so that maybe one of the 3 primary buttons on the controller just switches between the left menu and right menu areas?

 

This way you default it to the left hand menu area and just use the up and down on the controller to move between options. Press like the A button to select that option or better, have it then switch to the right hand side automatically and then use like the B or C button as the Back button.

 

This is similar to how the menus work on many flash carts. Don't see why something like that couldn't be implemented here as well?

 

I honestly don't see how that's better than the current solution.

[SignGuy81]

 

I'd like to see:

1. smaller system footprint (is there a lot of empty air space in the current Sega Flashback?)

 

Was with you on everything pretty much except that one. I think it is small enough. I like having a little extra space in the console in case I want to do something with it later on have plenty of room to work it. Also I don't want the thing so small(like a roku) that won't even lay flat when I hook the HDMI cord to it because it is so small and light. Also I believe due to the size of the cart slot if they were to go much smaller they wouldn't be able to keep the scale right with the original Genesis and it wouldn't look right. Would you want the cart slot to go all the way from the left side of the console to the right, for example? Then you would have what you want, the last Genesis flashback, which doesn't resemble the original Genesis, which is one of the major selling points of this one.

Edited October 19, 2017 by SignGuy81

[+-^CrossBow^-]

 

I honestly don't see how that's better than the current solution.

Okay..apparently I'm not speaking well enough?

 

Here are the two ideas for menu navigation I was trying to imply:

 

- Use a button on the controllers like the A,B, or C buttons and that would allow you to switch between the left hand side and right hand side. You would use the up and down on the controller to move between selections on the left side, and then either use a button to swap to the other half of the screen. Then you can move up,down, left, or right as you wish again using the controller. Another different button enters the selections and the third unused button would be a back button perhaps to cancel a selection.

 

or

 

- This method would work like the basic UIs do for menus on many flash carts. Basically you get a single screen to choose what you want to do. Press the A button to select that option and you are taken to the choices within that option. Use the B or C button to back out or cancel. Instead of the two sides and different menus, you just have a single screen that changes depending on the options you've chosen.

 

Bill I think the main issue others have expressed about the menu UI is the using of the B and C buttons to move up and down instead of controlling all the movement with the D pad as we are all naturally accustomed to doing.

 

Does that make better since?

Edited October 19, 2017 by -^Cro§Bow^-

[Flojomojo]

I hear you ...I just think it's silly when these plug and play systems like the Atari, Intellivision, and Colecovision Flashbacks are the size of a stick of gum inside, packed in a big, low quality empty case. Those are good for stashing Pi boards, though.

[Bill Loguidice]

Okay..apparently I'm not speaking well enough?

 

Here are the two ideas for menu navigation I was trying to imply:

 

- Use a button on the controllers like the A,B, or C buttons and that would allow you to switch between the left hand side and right hand side. You would use the up and down on the controller to move between selections on the left side, and then either use a button to swap to the other half of the screen. Then you can move up,down, left, or right as you wish again using the controller. Another different button enters the selections and the third unused button would be a back button perhaps to cancel a selection.

 

or

 

- This method would work like the basic UIs do for menus on many flash carts. Basically you get a single screen to choose what you want to do. Press the A button to select that option and you are taken to the choices within that option. Use the B or C button to back out or cancel. Instead of the two sides and different menus, you just have a single screen that changes depending on the options you've chosen.

 

Bill I think the main issue others have expressed about the menu UI is the using of the B and C buttons to move up and down instead of controlling all the movement with the D pad as we are all naturally accustomed to doing.

 

Does that make better since?

 

B and C only moves up and down on the left side of the menu at present, which you really wouldn't be changing all that much. Game navigation is with the d-pad like normal. What you're saying is actually more complicated since it requires more steps. Maybe if you get a chance to use one, you can see what I mean.

[+-^CrossBow^-]

 

B and C only moves up and down on the left side of the menu at present, which you really wouldn't be changing all that much. Game navigation is with the d-pad like normal. What you're saying is actually more complicated since it requires more steps. Maybe if you get a chance to use one, you can see what I mean.

The Kotaku article and John Hancock's video made it appear that B and C were used to navigate up and down on both the left hand side and within game selection? If the D pad works fully within the game selection and the B and C buttons are only used for navigation on the left than that isn't that bad. Though I still wonder why the D pad couldn't be used to select up and down on the left, Press A for the selection you want, it switches to the right and you use the D pad to move around and press A again to select the game. B could cancel or move back to the left menu depending on where you are. That seems very intuitive to me in that way and is how I would likely try and use the menu.

 

As I said, the main issue is using B and C to navigate up and down on the left hand side.

[shicky256]

If anyone wants to compile a list of concise "demands" and/or features that they think are not addressed by the current Genesis Flashback, I will be happy to pass those on. This will help inform some of the other changes we have planned for the 2018 model (keep in mind that an SD card slot is already being considered). Same thing for the Atari side (keeping in mind that cartridge and SD card slots are already being considered).

I'd say my biggest feature request is to license the Genesis Plus GX emulator instead of using whatever homegrown thing you're currently using. Emulators created by companies are typically inferior to those made by hobbyists, especially for older systems. This makes sense since you typically have a team working on an emulator for a few months and trying to get stuff working on a best-effort basis instead of fans of the console taking years to accurately simulate it. For example, in the Sonic video you posted, I noticed that the "Sega" voice sample was off-pitch, the tempo on the title screen music was all over the place, the scrolling was choppy, the instrumentation was weird, and the ring sound effect sounds distorted.

 

Also, fans seem fine with the wired controllers in the SNES mini. Hyperkin currently manufactures quality aftermarket 6-button Genesis controllers that feel reasonably similar to the originals, so maybe rebadging them would be possible.

Finally, simply having the menu of games scroll vertically and having the user go all the way to the left to switch categories would be better than the current confusing system.

Edited October 20, 2017 by shicky256