Keatah Posted June 24, 2017 Share Posted June 24, 2017 Wasn't it already agreed upon to use an older version of Emulator Stella and not go with custom or original chips? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Nathan Strum Posted June 24, 2017 Share Posted June 24, 2017 I certainly didn't agree to that. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+stephena Posted June 24, 2017 Share Posted June 24, 2017 As of now, the version of Stella used is 1.1 plus some improvements. But unless/until more negotiations happen, it won't contain any of the new features of Stella from the past 10 years or so (unless they reimplement them). Please note that this is my understanding of the situation; they may have further announcements that update this. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawn Posted June 24, 2017 Share Posted June 24, 2017 As of now, the version of Stella used is 1.1 plus some improvements. But unless/until more negotiations happen, it won't contain any of the new features of Stella from the past 10 years or so (unless they reimplement them). Please note that this is my understanding of the situation; they may have further announcements that update this. Have you talked to Hyperkin yet? Would be nice to know that you have a line of communication with them as that would only do their upcoming product a great service. That is as long as you and they can come to some agreement. I sure hope you can! But who knows, maybe the additions they have done to v1.1 will make it all that is needed, not likely, but it could happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+stephena Posted June 24, 2017 Share Posted June 24, 2017 What I stated above is from them. As of now, they're using a licensed version of 1.1 plus some improvements (which I'm not privy to). Unless I hear back from them and/or they change their minds, then the hardware won't include a later release of Stella. I've made my offers of help, but for now I will leave it alone; basically the ball is in their court. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andromeda Stardust Posted June 24, 2017 Share Posted June 24, 2017 As of now, the version of Stella used is 1.1 plus some improvements. But unless/until more negotiations happen, it won't contain any of the new features of Stella from the past 10 years or so (unless they reimplement them). Please note that this is my understanding of the situation; they may have further announcements that update this. What I stated above is from them. As of now, they're using a licensed version of 1.1 plus some improvements (which I'm not privy to). Unless I hear back from them and/or they change their minds, then the hardware won't include a later release of Stella. I've made my offers of help, but for now I will leave it alone; basically the ball is in their court. Bravo... Let's see, off the bat, that means essentially all Melody enhanced homebrews (including the harmony cart itself) will not work. Does Pitfall II even work with version 1.1? Supercharger? What other back in the day releases absolutely didn't work with version 1.1? What about vanilla bankswitched homebrews which use undocumented opcodes? This includes most of Batari Basic homebrews as well as it uses undocumented opcodes in the kernel. Did nobody bring any Atari homebrews to try out at the e3 demo? What games besides VCS Pacman has actually been shown running on it? I cannot even find cellphone footage of the thing online, just static screenshots. Surely someone whipped out a smartphone and captured something??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andromeda Stardust Posted June 24, 2017 Share Posted June 24, 2017 Just found this: 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted June 24, 2017 Share Posted June 24, 2017 That's right boys! You tell'em! People are tired of trying to hook up old systems to new TVs. heh heh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted June 24, 2017 Share Posted June 24, 2017 It would be funny if they read the cartridge, computed a checksum, then looked that checkum up in a database and ran the appropriate rom. ha! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Nathan Strum Posted June 24, 2017 Share Posted June 24, 2017 That's right boys! You tell'em! People are tired of trying to hook up old systems to new TVs. heh heh Mine works just fine. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CPUWIZ Posted June 24, 2017 Share Posted June 24, 2017 Just found this: I hate to tell you this Pat, but the 4-switcher has 6 switches too. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schizophretard Posted June 24, 2017 Share Posted June 24, 2017 What I stated above is from them. As of now, they're using a licensed version of 1.1 plus some improvements (which I'm not privy to). Unless I hear back from them and/or they change their minds, then the hardware won't include a later release of Stella. I've made my offers of help, but for now I will leave it alone; basically the ball is in their court. I don't understand them. If an emulator isn't licensed for commercial use then they use it anyway but if an emulator is licensed for commercial use then they rather look for an inferior option. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted June 24, 2017 Share Posted June 24, 2017 There's more awareness in the market today. They better not screw up and get bad press and piss off enthusiasts. So they stick with an older version, with the bonus not having to share their code, and stay "legal" in the community. The newer emulator has different terms and requires they share their code, which they don't wanna do. They may also be looking at making an upgrade available later to great fanfare, the old "don't reveal all your cards at once" trick. Does that make sense? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schizophretard Posted June 24, 2017 Share Posted June 24, 2017 There's more awareness in the market today. They better not screw up and get bad press and piss off enthusiasts. So they stick with an older version, with the bonus not having to share their code, and stay "legal" in the community. The newer emulator has different terms and requires they share their code, which they don't wanna do. They may also be looking at making an upgrade available later to great fanfare, the old "don't reveal all your cards at once" trick. Does that make sense? Nope. Edit: It doesn't make sense because not using the most up to date version is already revealing their cards which shows they have a bad hand. So, them keeping the code proprietary isn't making it less likely for someone to copy them because now if someone wants to copy them they could just do a better job by making a similar product with the most up to date version. They have nothing to lose by using the best and making the product the best they can. On the other hand, they have something to lose by not making it the best they can because now someone else could. And if someone else wouldn't compete then why does it even matter if they share the code? It wouldn't. It only matters if someone is willing to compete and if they are willing to compete and you choose to use a proprietary inferior version while a superior version already exists then you aren't really doing yourself any favors because they will just copy you but use the superior version. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jferio Posted June 24, 2017 Share Posted June 24, 2017 I don't understand them. If an emulator isn't licensed for commercial use then they use it anyway but if an emulator is licensed for commercial use then they rather look for an inferior option. They don't want to release the code with their changes, which the newer version mandates by license. They probably want to keep people from doing their own firmware changes (signed updates like they did with the Retron 5), which the newer version disallows by license. They probably want to lock you into using actual cartridges, which the two aforementioned things would make harder by preventing the security around firmware changes and providing enough code that some people could figure out how to get a different emulator on it that allows one to, say, run ROMs off SD card or internal memory rather than the cartridge dump. Basically, they learned the lesson from the Retron 5, and decided out of the options of obey the terms of Gnu Public License, or go with an older base that would require work to upgrade but not have the licensing entanglements, they would prefer to go with the older base that they can proceed with the specific business model they did with the Retron 5. Or it could just be a smokescreen; get the license from the developer of the pre-GPL version, and just use the GPL version anyway. That would definitely fall into "no sale for me" territory. And I'm waiting for reviews on units "in the wild" before I make the determination if that's the case. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schizophretard Posted June 24, 2017 Share Posted June 24, 2017 They don't want to release the code with their changes, which the newer version mandates by license. They probably want to keep people from doing their own firmware changes (signed updates like they did with the Retron 5), which the newer version disallows by license. They probably want to lock you into using actual cartridges, which the two aforementioned things would make harder by preventing the security around firmware changes and providing enough code that some people could figure out how to get a different emulator on it that allows one to, say, run ROMs off SD card or internal memory rather than the cartridge dump. Basically, they learned the lesson from the Retron 5, and decided out of the options of obey the terms of Gnu Public License, or go with an older base that would require work to upgrade but not have the licensing entanglements, they would prefer to go with the older base that they can proceed with the specific business model they did with the Retron 5. Or it could just be a smokescreen; get the license from the developer of the pre-GPL version, and just use the GPL version anyway. That would definitely fall into "no sale for me" territory. And I'm waiting for reviews on units "in the wild" before I make the determination if that's the case. Why would just this be your line in the sand? If they kept it legal then legally they wouldn't be going against Stella but in a way they still would with your first sentence,"They don't want to release the code with their changes, which the newer version mandates by license." The whole point of releasing something with the GPL is so that people will use it, make changes, release the changes, the software gets better, etc. for the benefit of those who use the software. So, in not choosing to use it they are still basically saying,"Fuck Stella!" even though legally they are keeping it legit. I think it is pretty shitty that Stephen is pretty much a "team" of one that has licensed it in such a way that is basically saying,"Let's all work together to make this great!" and then people rather ignore this open invitation, go their own way, slow down progress, etc. Stella 1.1? WTF?! If I were Stephen I would feel very unappreciated and be wondering why I'm working on free and open source software in the first place if I was going to be a "team" of one either way it goes. It has got to be frustrating to give out an open invitation to have teamwork make the dream work and no one coming to the party. Other than a few donations he works on this for free, has worked hard on it, and is only one man. Any device that uses Atari emulation should use the proper Stella and anyone that has benefited from Stella should demand that devices use it. I think Stephen has earned better from us than just the law being our lines in the sand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andromeda Stardust Posted June 24, 2017 Share Posted June 24, 2017 There's more awareness in the market today. They better not screw up and get bad press and piss off enthusiasts. So they stick with an older version, with the bonus not having to share their code, and stay "legal" in the community. The newer emulator has different terms and requires they share their code, which they don't wanna do. They may also be looking at making an upgrade available later to great fanfare, the old "don't reveal all your cards at once" trick. Does that make sense? But it could have been a million-billion-trillion-quadrillion times better if they'd just used the current code, open sourced their project, and shared their improvements to it. Nope. Edit: It doesn't make sense because not using the most up to date version is already revealing their cards which shows they have a bad hand. So, them keeping the code proprietary isn't making it less likely for someone to copy them because now if someone wants to copy them they could just do a better job by making a similar product with the most up to date version. They have nothing to lose by using the best and making the product the best they can. On the other hand, they have something to lose by not making it the best they can because now someone else could. And if someone else wouldn't compete then why does it even matter if they share the code? It wouldn't. It only matters if someone is willing to compete and if they are willing to compete and you choose to use a proprietary inferior version while a superior version already exists then you aren't really doing yourself any favors because they will just copy you but use the superior version. Yup. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted June 24, 2017 Share Posted June 24, 2017 But it could have been a million-billion-trillion-quadrillion times better if they'd just used the current code, open sourced their project, and shared their improvements to it. Then people could buy the board they're using and build their own retron 77. But why even bother at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted June 24, 2017 Share Posted June 24, 2017 (edited) Any device that uses Atari emulation should use the proper Stella and anyone that has benefited from Stella should demand that devices use it. I think Stephen has earned better from us than just the law being our lines in the sand. Well yes. And if they don't reveal their reason for using earlier version, it'll be obvious why once the final feature set is determined and what changes have been made. So far, the premier VCS experience remains Emulator Stella on the PC. With all the little goodies and extraordinary compatibility the latest version offers, it can't be beat. --- EDIT: Hey wait. Maybe the system requirements are too high to use the latest version? Higher system requirements would obviously need more processing power which would raise the price. Edited June 24, 2017 by Keatah 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hizzy Posted June 24, 2017 Share Posted June 24, 2017 .As an additional tinker-friendly feature, we expect to leave an opportunity (for example in a form of a service port) to install other versions of Stella -- we honor everyone's IP rights, but since it's open-source, I believe users are free to rebuild and deploy any build of Stella they want. Do you think they'll do this? If they do, does it solve the licensing issue? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schizophretard Posted June 24, 2017 Share Posted June 24, 2017 Hey wait. Maybe the system requirements are too high to use the latest version? Higher system requirements would obviously need more processing power which would raise the price. Hopefully the specs are high enough to do more than version 1.1. If this thing is suppose to accept carts, be compatible with real controllers, output through HDMI, etc. to give a quality experience then it should have specs closer to their Retron 5 instead of my electronic cigarette or my wife's vibrator. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jferio Posted June 24, 2017 Share Posted June 24, 2017 Why would just this be your line in the sand? If they kept it legal then legally they wouldn't be going against Stella but in a way they still would with your first sentence,"They don't want to release the code with their changes, which the newer version mandates by license." The whole point of releasing something with the GPL is so that people will use it, make changes, release the changes, the software gets better, etc. for the benefit of those who use the software. So, in not choosing to use it they are still basically saying,"Fuck Stella!" even though legally they are keeping it legit. I think it is pretty shitty that Stephen is pretty much a "team" of one that has licensed it in such a way that is basically saying,"Let's all work together to make this great!" and then people rather ignore this open invitation, go their own way, slow down progress, etc. Stella 1.1? WTF?! If I were Stephen I would feel very unappreciated and be wondering why I'm working on free and open source software in the first place if I was going to be a "team" of one either way it goes. It has got to be frustrating to give out an open invitation to have teamwork make the dream work and no one coming to the party. Other than a few donations he works on this for free, has worked hard on it, and is only one man. Any device that uses Atari emulation should use the proper Stella and anyone that has benefited from Stella should demand that devices use it. I think Stephen has earned better from us than just the law being our lines in the sand. Doing the proprietary trick, yet using GPL code, would be my guaranteed line in the sand, the guaranteed "I'm NOT buying it, nor anything in the future." If they go proprietary, with no GPL? I'd need to see what the product can actually do. But it would have to be pretty stellar and on track out of the gate for me to get one in lieu of my combination of Real Hardware and RetroPie here. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinks Posted June 24, 2017 Share Posted June 24, 2017 In all the years this forum has been around. I'm surprised nobody banded together to get a console that is "VCS faithful" into production. Oh sure we've seen plenty of FPGA, emulation, and other 1-off projects. But nothing to replace the original. Not without compromises. It'd be cool to see an originally "shaped" console with 6 switches, that plays all cartridges, accepts all controllers, and has an SD slot tucked away in the back. All the while supporting standard RF, composite, and HDMI. A no-compromises console. Nothing sacrificed in place of something else. Essentially it would be identical to a sixer, with the only giveaways being a few extra ports/connectors on the back - discretely hidden. I agree 100% 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtariLeaf Posted June 24, 2017 Share Posted June 24, 2017 Other than a few donations he works on this for free, has worked hard on it, and is only one man. Any device that uses Atari emulation should use the proper Stella and anyone that has benefited from Stella should demand that devices use it. I think Stephen has earned better from us than just the law being our lines in the sand. Agreed, but my line in the sand is simply what works on this and what doesn't. I simply don't understand Hyperkins thinking here. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
accousticguitar Posted June 24, 2017 Share Posted June 24, 2017 I would like to see a device that is hardware based (no emulation) with hdmi out (to skip changing the signal from digital to analog and then back to digital). It would have an SD slot for roms (cartridge slot optional), the joysticks would plug into the front, and the buttons (difficulty switches, power, b&w switch, game select,and reset) would be on top. The only things plugging into the back would be the power source and hdmi cable. As for the design it could be small like a Genesis model 3 and on somewhere on it would be the console name of "Stella." 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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