atarifan88 Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 For the portable, I have a backup folder for my roms. When I want to write a new rom to the SD card, I delete all roms from the SD card, I copy the new rom to the backup, then I copy then I highlight all the roms on the backup starting with the last rom (Z) and ending with the first (A), and then drag and drop onto the SD card with the empty rom directory. It always writes them in alphabetical order. Then when I go to the display, they come up in correct order. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 Software Emulators are the new consoles of today. Virtual consoles. They cover just about all the classic systems. Yet nearly everyone rejects PC-based Software Emulation in favor of original hardware and FPGA, and there's years of posts here and elsewhere to back that statement up. Some say lag, some say improperly stretched/scaled images, others say not-CRT, and the old standby "cartridges"! Doesn't run game X, has harsh laser-sharp rendering on LCD ..among other reasons. Yet most are looking forward to the R77, and have already accepted NES-SNES minis, Flashback Portable, and other emulation based "replacement" consoles. And let us not forget FPGA consoles - which are godlike in their accuracy. So accurate that reviewers and gamers alike wax poetic in their discussions about them. The gush of goodness just doesn't stop for those. It almost sounds hypocritical to me! Because, now, we have the RetroN 77. This R77 console is generally getting more good praise than bad praise. And the faults in the unit are under scrutiny so that workarounds may be developed. Things like artificial limitations are being lifted. Things like changes in the emulation itself are being upgraded. That's fine. In fact it superbly illustrates that SE is so much more practical than FPGA - people are actually doing something! Whereas with an FPGA core, you have to wait on one specific developer to make a change. Here with SE anyone can change anything. Once people get a taste of the SD slot their console, they're going to want more of it. Just like SE has been doing for decades. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 This is the only current workaround. Eventually, it would be nice to re-purpose one of the buttons on the back to do it (say, the 4:3/16:9 button). Maybe there are un-used GPIO pins/points on that AllWinner board which can be connected up to more switches. A great idea for modding, add some of your own buttons to control emulator features. Drill a hole, mount the switch, solder it up, and hack the software. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaltran Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 You can also backup the 128mb card and if something goes wrong just re-flash it with the backup image but stop worrying, this stuff is super easy and I would be surprised if you bricked anything Yes but sounds like he has never done it before and if he can't flash the card with the new image he might just not be able to flash it with the old, so why take a chance if you don't have to. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 So now we can argue what is cheaper. Atari-on-a-Chip OR cart dumping/emulation OR FPGA. Likely the cart dumping and emulation combo is cheapest. It's certainly the most versatile solution both from a user's and developer's standpoint. I think many more people will go this way in time because "cartridges". And there is the added advantage of being able to put your carts on SD and play them from there, while at the same time reducing wear and tear. Though the "because cartridges" thing will fade with time, the SD slot will become more important. Aging gamers in their 50's and 60's aren't going to be getting up out their chair just to swap carts. Nor are they going to be chasing after carts that much anymore. Imagine some 70 year old fart hunchbacking his way into GoodWill looking for Big Bird's baby games (or some other kid's game). No. More important things are gonna be on his mind like which aide is giving showers or who gets front row at community movie nite. Finally Software Emulation is getting some of the recognition it has long deserved. FPGA is likely to remain a costly solution simply because the FPGA manufacturers continue to charge high prices for their chips. Any FPGA solution will have to have that one expensive part. There is the future potential for it to drop in price, especially as classic videogames can be done on the cheap low-end parts. I don't know about AOAC. But I will guess. Custom ASICs are likely still going to be expensive in the small quantities needed to make a run of consoles. Just expensive enough that no one is going to want to stockpile a supply for the future. Thus any system builder is stuck working with small quantities of expensive parts, never benefitting from economy-of-scale. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 For the portable, I have a backup folder for my roms. When I want to write a new rom to the SD card, I delete all roms from the SD card, I copy the new rom to the backup, then I copy then I highlight all the roms on the backup starting with the last rom (Z) and ending with the first (A), and then drag and drop onto the SD card with the empty rom directory. It always writes them in alphabetical order. Then when I go to the display, they come up in correct order. Yes, you either have to do something like that or a utility. That's simply because the host system or rom selector doesn't have any inbuilt sorting capability. So you rely on the SD card to send the directory information in order. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atarifan88 Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 Software Emulators are the new consoles of today. Virtual consoles. They cover just about all the classic systems. Yet nearly everyone rejects PC-based Software Emulation in favor of original hardware and FPGA, and there's years of posts here and elsewhere to back that statement up. Some say lag, some say improperly stretched/scaled images, others say not-CRT, and the old standby "cartridges"! Doesn't run game X, has harsh laser-sharp rendering on LCD ..among other reasons. Yet most are looking forward to the R77, and have already accepted NES-SNES minis, Flashback Portable, and other emulation based "replacement" consoles. And let us not forget FPGA consoles - which are godlike in their accuracy. So accurate that reviewers and gamers alike wax poetic in their discussions about them. The gush of goodness just doesn't stop for those. It almost sounds hypocritical to me! Because, now, we have the RetroN 77. This R77 console is generally getting more good praise than bad praise. And the faults in the unit are under scrutiny so that workarounds may be developed. Things like artificial limitations are being lifted. Things like changes in the emulation itself are being upgraded. That's fine. In fact it superbly illustrates that SE is so much more practical than FPGA - people are actually doing something! Whereas with an FPGA core, you have to wait on one specific developer to make a change. Here with SE anyone can change anything. Once people get a taste of the SD slot their console, they're going to want more of it. Just like SE has been doing for decades. Honestly, I'm waiting to see what AtGames has in store later this year. If they provide a product with Stella emulation and an SD card slot that works out of the box, I'm not even thinking twice and buying it. I was excited about the Retron 77 until I heard about all the stuff that still needs fixed. I just don't have the patience to wait for someone to come up with something that will fix: 1. A fire button that should always work 2. Preferences on screen size to be saved 3. Games that work on one variation but not the other 4. Limitations on the number of roms you can put on the card and play and most importantly... 5. The latest version of Stella 5 that allows the playing of such homebrews as Scramble and Super Cobra Arcade I don't think that's asking too much. Will AtGames meet all of those things this year? Maybe not, but I'm willing to bet they will meet at least 4 of them. I'll also bet that the Retron 77, while already getting some of these things fixed, will not have them all incorporated into one firmware release until this time next year. That's just a guess with all the stuff they are dealing with right now (i.e. different firmware versions for different Stella versions). I guess we shall see... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shipwreck Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 What if you copied all the ROMs back to the computer in 1 folder - erased them off the card, and then put them all back again at ONE time. Would that solve it? I originally moved them over in different orders Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shipwreck Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 4. Limitations on the number of roms you can put on the card and play Well, this one is now gone.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Thag Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 What if you copied all the ROMs back to the computer in 1 folder - erased them off the card, and then put them all back again at ONE time. Would that solve it? I originally moved them over in different orders That's a ridiculous waste of time, use the drivesort utility I linked above. Takes a couple of seconds. It's really easy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 Well, this one is now gone.... Yes and no. We are waiting for Hyperkin to merge their changes with Stella 3.9.3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atarifan88 Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 What if you copied all the ROMs back to the computer in 1 folder - erased them off the card, and then put them all back again at ONE time. Would that solve it? I originally moved them over in different orders Yes, it's the same principle. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 I'm concerned about Stella 5. making it onto the platform. While I don't understand all the improvements the way the original developers do. I do know there are enough to warrant whatever effort it takes to get it ported over. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atarifan88 Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 Well, this one is now gone.... Yes and no. It's gone if you are using the original version of Stella that came with the R77, but if you are using the upgraded Stella, then the firmware update will not work. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 For anyone interested my review of the Retron77 is here with a focus on programming games to run on all Atari consoles. I can't emphasize enough how strongly I feel that games should only be written for Original Hardware only. It is the responsibility of any clone manufacturer, any emulator writer, any FPGA designer, to get their product in compliance with the original specification. I also can't encourage the patching of roms, not a single byte, to make them compatible with any modern-day implementation of the original VCS. If we don't adhere to this "rule" then game developers will find themselves compiling 2, 3, or maybe more variations for the different products. The potential is there for us to begin seeing all sorts patches and half-assed mods and implementations of any one given game. Some of which may deviate enough so as not to work on original hardware. Surely that's gonna piss off future digital archaeologists now, isn't it? Not only that, it make the developers of new products lazy(1). They'll begin saying to themselves we're 90% of the way there, let the community make necessary patches (to roms). And the community itself now gets a sub-standard product. Until Original Atari and Cyan Engineering arise from the grave to bestow their blessings upon other variants, what I said above stands firm. --- Of all the VCS replacement products "on the maket" today, I would have to say Emulator Stella is the best offering. And closest to being "official". Rarely (if ever?) have I seen a game patched to operate on that emulator. The state of affairs and modus operandi is you compare it against real hardware and submit a bug report, and the emulator gets a revision. Had it been the other way around, each my bug complaints over the years would have added up to 20 - 30 new rom variations. Instead the emulator got fixed, the way it should be. --- (1) I don't mind or dislike devs handing off testing to the users for crowdtesting. With something as complex and tedious as emulator development, it is a godsend. You've got eyes everywhere each looking at something different and funneling the results back to the developer. I do dislike a product being sold as finished, then still having to fill out those bug reports. Thing is when you pay for something at retail, you expect it to be finished and working. When you download an emulator, it is understood, implied, even specified, that it is a work in progress and to expect issues. And as a user of such a product it is also the user's responsibility to fill out a bug report. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Thag Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 I also can't encourage the patching of roms, not a single byte, to make them compatible with any modern-day implementation of the original VCS. If we don't adhere to this "rule" then game developers will find themselves compiling 2, 3, or maybe more variations for the different products. The potential is there for us to begin seeing all sorts patches and half-assed mods and implementations of any one given game. Some of which may deviate enough so as not to work on original hardware. Surely that's gonna piss off future digital archaeologists now, isn't it? Not only that, it make the developers of new products lazy(1). They'll begin saying to themselves we're 90% of the way there, let the community make necessary patches (to roms). And the community itself now gets a sub-standard product. I hear where you are coming from, but really, we are not the primary demographic, which is kids and casual, nostalgia-motivated adults. The companies making this stuff will not get 'more lazy', they all cut corners because these are not high end, luxury products, but cheap 'good enough' products to cover a fad. The fact that a lot of gamers here got together and hacked a million games to run on, say, the Flashback Portable, is awesome. Didn't effect FBP sales in the slightest, but it sure made the unit more friendly to us long-time retro fans. If we had more of a market share, I'd agree with you whole-heartedly. But we don't. And if we don't band together and tinker with this stuff... we'll never get the systems to do what we want. At launch, the FBP SD card slot was mostly useless. Now, I use mine daily. Atgames wasn't going to make that thing work no matter who did or did not buy it here. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr_me Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 (edited) Honestly, I'm waiting to see what AtGames has in store later this year. If they provide a product with Stella emulation and an SD card slot that works out of the box, I'm not even thinking twice and buying it. I was excited about the Retron 77 until I heard about all the stuff that still needs fixed. ... My understanding is that Atgames uses their own proprietary emulators. Edited July 17, 2018 by mr_me 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SIO2 Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 I was just thinking how glad I am that I pre-ordered the Retron 77. All companies try to make things cheaper as they go. This Retron 77 I have here will likely be known in the future as the "heavy" and units of the future will be made from recycled Retron 1 shells then used plastic drinking straws then from plastic bags found in the chain link fence surrounding Hyperkin labs. Eventually, you will have to set a rock on top of your late model Retron 77 to keep it from blowing off the table when the dog walks by. I sure am glad I got mine early. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Loguidice Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 My understanding is that Atgames uses their own proprietary emulators. We will have a variety of Atari 2600-centric products this year. Some will use our proprietary emulator, while others will use a popular open source emulator for even better performance. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atarifan88 Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 My understanding is that Atgames uses their own proprietary emulators. Yes they do, but news broke that they are switching to a more popular emulator. The details haven been given yet, but that implies the use of Stella which is a win-win. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColecoJoe Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 Yes they do, but news broke that they are switching to a more popular emulator. The details haven been given yet, but that implies the use of Stella which is a win-win. I just wish they would do a redesign on those flashbacks. Those giant buttons look silly 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arrowhead Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 Ok, so, there are a lot of pages to sort through and I doubt I will ever get to it. So I have a couple of simple questions: If I buy a new retron77, can I now put more than 18 ROMs on the SD card? If no, my interest is still over unless a Harmony cart is compatible later. If yes: Is it through a homebrew hack, or an official firmware upgrade by hyperkin? Is there a YouTube turorial? Thats about all I'm curious about. Thanks guys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shipwreck Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 (edited) Ok, so, there are a lot of pages to sort through and I doubt I will ever get to it. So I have a couple of simple questions: If I buy a new retron77, can I now put more than 18 ROMs on the SD card? If no, my interest is still over unless a Harmony cart is compatible later. If yes: Is it through a homebrew hack, or an official firmware upgrade by hyperkin? Is there a YouTube turorial? Thats about all I'm curious about. Thanks guys Yes, if you download the latest update, you are rid of the 18 ROM limit. I know zilch about this kinda stuff, and with several people on this thread answering my specific questions - it went smoothly. Get the new image for your SD card here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1xb6Qo1785LWHtRgE9tNF41qqohqxGGoR/view?usp=sharing Then I followed these exact steps last night, and it worked fine (put the new image on top of the old one that comes with the Retron 77): 1. Download an unzip the .img file above. 2. I use etcher from https://etcher.io/ 3. Install etcher, run it, and select the.img file you downloaded for the first option. 4. Connect the Retron 77 SD card to your card reader, and select as the second option 5. Burn the file to your SD card. If all went well, you should get a confirmation notice 6. Copy your desired ROM files over to the 'Games' folder on the SD card 7. Play Atari. Note that there are no page transition animations. It works, but the UI is still basic. This will allow you to play 99% of the games the current Retron 77 cart dumper will not read. Edited July 17, 2018 by Shipwreck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andromeda Stardust Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 I thought FAT only recognized up to 4 gigs so what would be the point of expanding it or by expanding does it make FAT see passed the 4gb limit? You can expand the FAT partition up to 4Gb. So buy a 4Gb card (the smallest denomination most stores sell) and use the entire card. Or buy a bigger card and use the first 4 gb. I do not know whether or not the Hyperkin OS can read FAT32 or not. And realistically, you will never use up a 1Gb card much less a 16Gb one. In fact it would be a stretch to find 100Mb worth of ROMs to fill the default SD card. However since most ROMs are smaller than the default sectors on the disk, they may take up a lot more physical disk space than is actually reported by Windows. For 32kb sectors, which is the default for "large" FAT32 volumes, a 2kb ROM like Pong Sports or Combat will take up the same amount of storage space as a large 32kb ROM like Princess Rescue. Other than the raspberry Pi, I've never had to deal with partitioning an SD card. Mostly I just use the official SD formatter to prepare cards for use in any device, with the exception that botique or homebrew devices utilizing SDXC cards need to be force-formatted to FAT32 in order to use them, which can be accomplished using Windows command line, 3rd party utilities, or a Mac or Linux PC. None of the No-Intro ROM sets for retro cartridge based systems are larger than 32Gb, and I think GBA is the largest at 24Gb. This includes every commercial ROM ever released (excluding the full length Shrek 1, 2, and Shark Tales movies and their low 12fps framerate, garbled audio, and terrible Cenepak like compression artifacts), including all the regional language releases for every game in PAL regions. The largest GBA games were 32Mb, while the largest Atari games were 32kb, so the need for expansion is moot. You can comfortably fit the entire Atari library in the 70Mb of free space on that 128Mb card. Good luck scrolling through it all though... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 The situation is simply called slack. The smaller the volume, the smaller the smaller the sectors, therefor less slack. Less wastage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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