Mr SQL Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 I actually can't stand an unfiltered image with perfectly square pixels, it really ruins the 8-bit graphics IMO, especially if displayed on a big 50+ inch TV. Without some smoothing the individual pixels become too evident making the displayed objects less recognizeable, and the whole image look "flat" to me. That's another reason for me to not even consider getting a r77 unless the upcoming Stella 6 is ported to it. Stella has highly configurable crt filters, scanlines and, since version 5, a new phosphor mode that better simulates phosphor persistence of a crt display. Personally, that's the only way I enjoy playing the atari 2600 on a modern TV set. An original console never looks that good on a digital TV, no matter what expensive mod and/or upscaler you get. On a dedicated device like the r77, you have to sacrifice most of the configurability of the PC version of the emulator to keep it easy to use, but a couple of presets with different level of crt emulation in addition to the raw unfiltered image should do the job. Here are some screenshots with example of filtered displays compared to "raw" ones (both taken in Stella 6 beta) to show what I'm talking about. (You can see the phosphor persistence effect in fast moving objects in "Galaxian" and "Super Break Out". It's really a dynamic effect that needs to be seen in action rather than on a screenshot, but it gives an idea). Note that the smoothing doesn't cause any loss in resolution: every single pixel of the Atari display is visible in the filtered images. Those games do look better with the phosphor emulation, but the way it's implemented it only supports games with a relatively slow framerate. The Retron77 updates posted on this thread include high performance games like WARPDRIVE that break apart under phosphor emulation, particularly if you activate the WARPDRIVE - that puts the animation at 60 FPS and there's no room left for phosphor emulation without a higher base framerate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcallie Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 (edited) Those phosphor screens do look nice, but I like the clean pixel look as well. It's like your memory of something vs. an idealized version of that memory. It would be nice to be able to choose between both. Edited August 31, 2018 by marcallie 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+swlovinist Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 I am personally disappointed that there has not been more information about a future update for fix for the Retron 77. I had high hopes that it would be supported better and this could be fixed with more communication. I know that the engineer that worked on it is active here. I would be nice for him to give an update on these forums about future updates that would help this product become better than average. In its current state it falls into the typical Hyperkin product of two steps forward, one step back. I have attempted to reach out and have heard nothing. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akito01 Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 To quote Jeff Gerstmann, I want to see every dirty filthy pixel. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alex_79 Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 Those phosphor screens do look nice, but I like the clean pixel look as well. It's like your memory of something vs. an idealized version of that memory. It would be nice to be able to choose between both. Absolutely. 2 or 3 preset options to choose from (including unfiltered) would please everyone's taste. There are plenty of buttons on the console that can be used for that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+stephena Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 There are already presets in Stella for just such this purpose: Composite, SVideo, RGB, 'Bad Adjust', and of course disabled/unfiltered. You need to be using the latest version of Stella, of course, but the functionality is already there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 Maybe Altirra will add 2600 support, it would be awesome to see true phosphor support instead of a blurry mess and artifact colors in games designed to support them. Even a video mod can remove that capability from classic Atari consoles: http://atariage.com/forums/topic/224723-why-did-the-atari-2600-console-design-change-so-much/page-2 IIRC This might have been discussed at one time in an older Altirra thread. IIRC there was no interest in duplicating efforts. We already have a premier VCS emulator. IIRC the Altirra dev wanted to to continue advancing 8-bit home computer emulation and wasn't interested in duplicating the effort going into Stella right now. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 There are already presets in Stella for just such this purpose: Composite, SVideo, RGB, 'Bad Adjust', and of course disabled/unfiltered. You need to be using the latest version of Stella, of course, but the functionality is already there. These Blargg TV Effects have been present for certain from 3.7.5. up. Perhaps earlier. This could have been enabled in the firmware that shipped with the 1st release. There does come a point when a Plug-n-Play console can have too many options. On the other hand, TV Effects are typically 1-time setup options, it's not like you're adjusting them continually throughout gameplay or even when switching to different games. I set my TV Effects settings once sometime back in 2012 and have not tweaked them since, other than to get a change of pace, like a red colored Video Pinball playfield. Experiments like that for fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 I actually can't stand an unfiltered image with perfectly square pixels, it really ruins the 8-bit graphics IMO, especially if displayed on a big 50+ inch TV. Without some smoothing the individual pixels become too evident making the displayed objects less recognizeable, and the whole image look "flat" to me. That's another reason for me to not even consider getting a r77 unless the upcoming Stella 6 is ported to it. Most of don't. It's impressive to see VCS games rendered razor sharp at first, but it gets old real fast. I was impressed with the sharpness of unfiltered pixels back in the 1990's but have since then found it much more pleasant to smooth them out. But, carefully. And remember the TV Effects filters were present in the 3.7.5 release. I'm certain the only difference between then and now is the phosphor blend is slightly different now. Stella has highly configurable crt filters, scanlines and, since version 5, a new phosphor mode that better simulates phosphor persistence of a crt display. Personally, that's the only way I enjoy playing the atari 2600 on a modern TV set. An original console never looks that good on a digital TV, no matter what expensive mod and/or upscaler you get. It's great to see interest building in "all-digital" solutions for classic games. It's also easier for me when I play ambassador. Don't have to fart around with mods and those converter box things - of which no two seem to be the same! Not to mention finicky and "always on the edge of specification" analog signals. Purists may like that, live it, love it, breathe it. But for the rest of us it's too much. Here. Now. By playing with digital outputs, I can recommend emulator X + hardware Y + config file Z and be assured the output is going to look the same. On a dedicated device like the r77, you have to sacrifice most of the configurability of the PC version of the emulator to keep it easy to use, but a couple of presets with different level of crt emulation in addition to the raw unfiltered image should do the job. Why not simply have included a configuration button? Or hold something down in a certain position. Or flip a switch at a specific moment as indicated during the onscreen boot process.. Any one of those actions could've been used to enter an "advanced" setup screen showing many more of the now-missing PC options. It's attention to detail that helps make a product shine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+stephena Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 IIRC This might have been discussed at one time in an older Altirra thread. IIRC there was no interest in duplicating efforts. We already have a premier VCS emulator. IIRC the Altirra dev wanted to to continue advancing 8-bit home computer emulation and wasn't interested in duplicating the effort going into Stella right now. And of course this is correct. Altirra can be perfect because it sticks to its design goals. And the same is true for Stella. Mixing different systems into one app normally leads to none of them being first-class. This is just a consequence of trying to squeeze things together that don't fit and don't belong together, and also of spreading resources too thin. People have asked my about adding 7800 support to Stella, and it probably won't happen here either, for much the same reason (unless of course someone steps up to attack the problem ). These Blargg TV Effects have been present for certain from 3.7.5. up. Perhaps earlier. This could have been enabled in the firmware that shipped with the 1st release. Nope, Blargg requires hardware acceleration, so even if it is present in 3.7.5, it still won't run on the R77, which uses only software mode. Again, I have to clearly state that we need SDL2 ported to this device. Then you get Stella 5/6, and ALL its nice features like this. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BILLYonaire Posted September 1, 2018 Share Posted September 1, 2018 (edited) Would anyone who tried playing PAL games on this please confirm whether or not they are compatible?EDIT: Never mind. I just pound this post confirming that they are compatible. http://atariage.com/forums/topic/266544-retron-77/?p=4068116 Edited September 1, 2018 by BILLYonaire Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andromeda Stardust Posted September 1, 2018 Share Posted September 1, 2018 To quote Jeff Gerstmann, I want to see every dirty filthy pixel. Ironically enough, while the HD picture is a bit noisier than a CRT due to the higher black levels, I can see every pixel on my Atari VCS clear as day on my 4k TCL HDTV using a raw NTSC RF channel 2 feed. Obviously the phosphor blurring is a bit uglier than the stella screenshot, but the upscaler is quite good and low enough latency that it does not detriment the gameplay. The Retron77's razor sharp pixels are not the issue though. The gross incompatibilities, necessitating of the loading of ROMs for games I legitamately own because the Retron77 cannot properly dump certain game carts through the cartridge interface, just reeks. I'd rather hook my stock VCS up to the 4k TV, even if the image is a bit grainy, at least every game works as advertised. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andromeda Stardust Posted September 1, 2018 Share Posted September 1, 2018 Would anyone who tried playing PAL games on this please confirm whether or not they are compatible? EDIT: Never mind. I just pound this post confirming that they are compatible. http://atariage.com/forums/topic/266544-retron-77/?p=4068116 They are likely compatible to the extent that your game cart is a known PAL cart and matches an entry in the checksum database. Stella can also use heuristics to detect PAL games based on scanline counts. Pop in a PAL60 homebrew and it will render it in NTSC colors. Pop in a paddle homebrew and it will attempt to emulate the joystick. These games have the potential to work, but we absolutely need a settings menu to manually adjust settings for things like region or controller type. This works on a PC by hitting a key on the keyboard which pulls up a context menu. Perhaps the FRY key could be used for such purpose, rather than revert to home screen. And have an option to exit the emulator on the menu as well (normally escape on a PC). All of the features to manually edit controller type or region, and display options, are included even within older Stella distros. The lack of a keyboard interface or sufficient input buttons on the exterior of the console prevents access to these features however. So while built into the Stella emulator itself, it is all inaccessible without a method for pushing simulated key presses to the Retron77 software interface. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+remowilliams Posted September 2, 2018 Share Posted September 2, 2018 Would anyone who tried playing PAL games on this please confirm whether or not they are compatible? EDIT: Never mind. I just pound this post confirming that they are compatible. http://atariage.com/forums/topic/266544-retron-77/?p=4068116 Yes, PAL carts should work and display in PAL if they can be dumped by the system and Stella detects it. PAL roms should work as well - if you find a PAL rom that doesn't seem to be displaying in PAL a specific entry can be created for it in the stella.pro file. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BILLYonaire Posted September 2, 2018 Share Posted September 2, 2018 Thanks for the tips, Kosmic Stardust and remowilliams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr SQL Posted September 4, 2018 Share Posted September 4, 2018 IIRC This might have been discussed at one time in an older Altirra thread. IIRC there was no interest in duplicating efforts. We already have a premier VCS emulator. IIRC the Altirra dev wanted to to continue advancing 8-bit home computer emulation and wasn't interested in duplicating the effort going into Stella right now. Seems like it would be a good idea since GTIA is related to TIA and the ANTIC chip is contemporary. I'm working on a BASIC that will allow Atari 2600 SuperCharger and CBS RAM games to be recompiled with no changes for the Atari 400/800/5200, this has been discussed on a few threads already. From my perspective ANTIC fits with the other vintage chips, the modern CPU chipset clearly doesn't belong: Mixing different systems into one app normally leads to none of them being first-class. This is just a consequence of trying to squeeze things together that don't fit and don't belong together... Good point - this is why Stella couldn't synch the display properly until recently, doubtless if you focused on fixing the display instead of adding a modern 32-bit system to be emulated that could have been accomplished sooner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted September 4, 2018 Share Posted September 4, 2018 The ecospheres & personalities of the 8-bit computer lineup and VCS are different enough that the emulators should remain separate. That both systems share a 650x processor and a partially similar TIA/GTIA "chipset" isn't reason enough. I'm happy to have both emulators sit side-by-side on my desktop. That's integration enough for me. In fact, I view my emulation system as a whole. One system. And Altirra, Stella, MAME, and others, are simply "plug-in" modules or "cores". 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dionoid Posted September 15, 2018 Share Posted September 15, 2018 The RetroN 77 has been out of stock for a couple of months now. Does anyone has information on what's happening behind the scenes? I hope Hyperkin is silently working on supporting SDL2 for this system, using the guidance that StephenA has given online: https://github.com/stella-emu/stella/wiki/Retron-77 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doctorclu Posted September 15, 2018 Share Posted September 15, 2018 (edited) The RetroN 77 has been out of stock for a couple of months now. Does anyone has information on what's happening behind the scenes? I hope Hyperkin is silently working on supporting SDL2 for this system, using the guidance that StephenA has given online: https://github.com/stella-emu/stella/wiki/Retron-77 Well glad I got mine when I did. I've enjoyed my Retron. Joystick broke and I repaired it sometime ago. And the community hack of Stella really makes it so much better. Wonder, being a Linux Box, if other emulators (Atari 800, 7800, Lynx) wouldn't be possible? Hmmm... I was thinking without cartridge slot support on those above, but I wonder how adaptable the chincy cartridge slot is? Wonder if Arcadia 2001 would be possible? Those LOOKED like 2600 carts. Heheh... Edited September 15, 2018 by doctorclu 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andromeda Stardust Posted September 15, 2018 Share Posted September 15, 2018 Wonder, being a Linux Box, if other emulators (Atari 800, 7800, Lynx) wouldn't be possible? I doubt it, as the current microcontroller is incapable of emitting the high logic signal on pin 6 necessary to read 7800 controllers. Nor can it read Genesis or sms controllers with the extra button. So you would be limited to games that support one button sticks. The RetroN 77 has been out of stock for a couple of months now. Does anyone has information on what's happening behind the scenes? I hope Hyperkin is silently working on supporting SDL2 for this system, using the guidance that StephenA has given online: https://github.com/stella-emu/stella/wiki/Retron-77 Sounds like now would be a great time to sell mine. I have a like new retron77 and a gently used Retrofreak I'd like to get rid of (no box). I'll be on vacation this coming week, but expect a for sale thread sometime in the not-so-distant future. I'm done supporting emulation dumpers with cart slots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Nathan Strum Posted October 1, 2018 Share Posted October 1, 2018 (edited) For anyone attending PRGE, Hyperkin will be holding a panel at Sunday, Oct. 21 at 4:00 PM. Might be a good opportunity to ask some direct questions about the RetroN 77. They'll be there as an exhibitor, too. Edited October 1, 2018 by Nathan Strum 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coolcrab Posted October 2, 2018 Share Posted October 2, 2018 Please ask them about the r77! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr SQL Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 For anyone attending PRGE, Hyperkin will be holding a panel at Sunday, Oct. 21 at 4:00 PM. Might be a good opportunity to ask some direct questions about the RetroN 77. They'll be there as an exhibitor, too. Very cool to hear - it was a lot of fun to make a big contribution to this awesome project! Also cool to see the Stella team uploading my advanced Atari games for folks to enjoy, even cooler if they can fix the soft renderer so they play better. You're pretty enthusiastic, maybe you could pitch in and help fix that! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coolcrab Posted October 11, 2018 Share Posted October 11, 2018 I tried to reach out again but nothing unfortunately. I hope that you guys get some answers during the PRGE! I really like this console TBF but it should play everything..especially new home-brews. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted October 12, 2018 Share Posted October 12, 2018 To me this seems a dead system. No communication from Hyperkin..?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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