RetroN 77

[+remowilliams]

I was able to create a build here at work, but I can't test it, as my R77 is at home. I'm almost 100% sure it will be fine though.

Extracted the image to a new SD card, added roms and paged through them, played Scramble. Working fine so far.

 

Many thanks for this, and of course all the work you do for Stella

[Andromeda Stardust]

 

 

 

 

Looks like e-stalking to me, you keep posting images whenever I post to someone else, your recently did that on the 2600 programming forum posting a picture of my reply to Enthusi over the same topic. Please stop it, if you want to have an intellectual discussion though that's fine.

 

Calling ARM games awesome games isn't denigrating them, they're tremendous fun to play however it isn't fair to group them in the same category as classic Atari games; I agree with John that it's a lot easier to code in c on a 32-bit CPU, why not keep it real and promote them as 32-bit ARM games that drive the TIA?

 

Stephana stop throwing insults and being a prima donna, I support all Atari systems with programming languages, IDE's and development tools:

SuportingAllAtariConsoles.JPG

 

 

okay,gonna resond to this trollish post even though i really shouldnt. like those above me, i clicked the view anyway icon. arm based 2600 games are still in fact 2600 games. sure they are a horse of a different color, but a pink horse is still a horse. it trots like a horse whinnies like a horse, grazes in green pastures, makes horse pies... if it plugs into stock hardware, accepts input from a controller to manipulate graphics and sound on screen, it counts as a game. the emulator has to support all the additional cart hardware, but the physical game mated with the system is two halves of the same whole. a system does not function without the game and visa-versa. but to declare "game x is not a game because it contains y" is foolish because anyone can see that it fits the definition of a game when it plugs in and plays.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

okay,gonna resond to this trollish post even though i really shouldnt.

Next time you respond to such ***censored***, please don't quote. Thanks!

[iesposta]

“Scramble Arcade” uses DPC+ which 3.9.3 emulates.

 

“Super Cobra Arcade” started out with DPC+ development,

but switched to CDF bankswitching which is not emulated by Stella 3.9.3.

Early build versions may run from SD card if it is a DPC+ build.

 

“Super Cobra” is a Parker Brothers 2600 game.

 

Extracted the image to a new SD card, added roms and paged through them, played Scramble. Working fine so far.

Many thanks for this, and of course all the work you do for Stella

[Mr SQL]

imo you come off as a Debbie Downer fanboys with the negative reviews.

 

Come up with constructive counterpoints to discuss or don't post - ignore means to ignore, not form a circle.

 

[Shipwreck]

I agree. With the ROM limit removed, the device does everything I want it to do.

[ColecoJoe]

 

 

Thanks for all your hard work man, you're awesome!

[Keatah]

I find myself able to argue both sides. Is it a VCS game? Or is it a specialized ARM-enhanced game? Even looking at how I sort my files and folders doesn't help much.

 

Currently, material like Super Cobra Arcade, Draconian, Stay Frosty II, Scramble, and others are interspersed throughout other categories. SpaceGames.. Favs 1.. Favs 2.. That indicates they are just like any other cartridge/rom. They are receiving no special treatment.

 

Maybe I should make an additional and separate folder for ARM stuff. Yes. ArmEnhancedGames. Proof positive the argument can swing both ways! VCS roms are tiny, and 32K is just as small as 2K or 4K on today's storage devices - so I don't mind having a game duplicated 2x or 3x in several different folders.

 

---

 

I can confidently say that the uninitiated noob wouldn't separate out ARM games from a pile of cartridges and all-of-a-sudden say they're not really genuine VCS games. And I don't think the original designers of the VCS are gonna jump up and scream Blasphemy either!

Edited July 19, 2018 by Keatah

[+SpiceWare]

Stalking huh, that's funny. The problem with Ignore is every once in a while somebody will quote a post by Mr SQL, like Kosmic Stardust just did, which results in me seeing it. Inevitably its something derogatory about Stella or my work.

 

In the topic mentioned from back in May, enthusi posted something dismissing the need to optimize ARM code, followed by a post by Mr SQL. I replied to enthusi with 2 posts about optimizing (first one dismissing his belief, the second with the results of a few weeks of optimizing we did for Stay Frosty 2 that freed up almost 2K of ROM). My replies were immediately followed by another post by Mr SQL (seems like he's doing the stalking to me ). My assumption at the time was Mr SQL was trying to provoke things, so said as much in my next reply in the topic so others would know why I wasn't taking the bait.

 

Just checked those 2 replies now and yep, they come across as dismissive of my work. Sure those specific replies alone are not too bad, but in the context of prior comments I'd seen they paint an ugly picture. I periodically click View it Anyway?, like I did this morning, as sometimes I remove people from my Ignore list. At this point in time Mr SQL will remain there.

[onemoretime]

I literally know nothing of programming, other than sleeping at a Holiday Inn the other night, but....maybe someone that doesn t know anything about it might give more of a bit of insight to what some of the average users want? Just my opinion, which has no tangible value...... I don t much care what kinds of doodads you stuff in the cartridge, as long as when I plug it into my Atari it works without me troubleshooting it and failing miserably. I seem to remember how great I thought Solaris and Pitfall 2 was the first time I saw them. I understand the point made where someone was stating that additional onboard game processing was kinda cheating, but if it works it don t much matter to me. Case in point, I realize that for the most part that the 2600 to 5200 cart adapter is basically most of a 2600 in a different case, but I don t care. When I use the adapter, I call it an adapter, and don t think of it as an add on computer. I suppose the sticky issue I "think" some folk are upset about is the possible snowball effect of new consoles that are based on Atari backwards compatibility having new software designed for that won t work on originals, thus kinda taking something from the original. I guess my thought process is the same as I thought about the 7800 when I first saw it. It was a "new" console with better graphics with the capability that would play my old games as well. I didn t think of it as the 2600 killer, but as the next step. I don t (again. "think"), that there will be enough new consoles produced to absolutely kill the 2600 homebrew program. But again, what the hell do I know anyhow?

[+Nathan Strum]

I just wanted to say "thank you" to Stephen for all the work he puts into Stella (which he doesn't have to do) and the RetroN 77 (which he shouldn't have to do). I use Stella all of the time, and know for a fact that this hobby wouldn't be where it is today without it. So I sent him a little something. Not much. Just pizza money*. I think any contribution is probably welcomed, because I think knowing people appreciate your hard work helps to counter the trolls**.

 

And to Hyperkin: since you do read this thread, I really hope you're kicking some "thank you's" Stephen's way as well, because your product wouldn't exist without Stella. I'm hopeful someone (it should be you) can get the current version of Stella running on it. The day that happens, is the day I'll buy one.***

 

 

* Not Little Ceasar's either, but a good one.

** I don't currently have anyone on my ignore list. But I'm thinking about it. Trolls are only amusing to a point.

*** And if that one works, I'd buy more to send to friends of mine so they can play some of the homebrews I've worked on.

[Keatah]

I like to read "Theory of Operation" sections of manuals. As a kid I always found them enlightening and highly educational. Those are the technical introduction sections explaining what each chip or subroutine does, but without the tedious details of actual bits flying around.

 

Those sections are written for the technical layman. They give you just enough information to satisfy a curiosity. Just enough information to appreciate the complexity and ingenuity behind the subject matter. But not enough to eliminate the mystery. And I always like a mystery - means there is something more to figure out later.

 

---

 

Heh. Sometimes when I program (recreationally) in Applesoft Basic I end up making a rabbit hole full of chain links and figure-8s, intermixed and intertwined like the wet-dream of a particle physicist. Everything is a tangled mess that somehow manages to do what I intended. I fear that if I dig too deeply into x86 (of which I also partly understand) the whole chip would explode and the assembler would come home crying to mommy.

[Keatah]

I literally know nothing of programming, other than sleeping at a Holiday Inn the other night, but....maybe someone that doesn t know anything about it might give more of a bit of insight to what some of the average users want? Just my opinion, which has no tangible value...... I don t much care what kinds of doodads you stuff in the cartridge, as long as when I plug it into my Atari it works without me troubleshooting it and failing miserably.

 

Opinions born out of innocence and "clean-slate" are quite insightful. They are not prejudiced or biased or tainted by preconceived notions or fear. It's like with aircraft accident investigations. The investigators get a call to go on-site, and they turn off their car radios and don't use the internet till they arrive. They don't want any sort of bias.

 

 

I suppose the sticky issue I "think" some folk are upset about is the possible snowball effect of new consoles that are based on Atari backwards compatibility having new software designed for that won t work on originals, thus kinda taking something from the original. I guess my thought process is the same as I thought about the 7800 when I first saw it. It was a "new" console with better graphics with the capability that would play my old games as well. I didn t think of it as the 2600 killer, but as the next step. I don t (again. "think"), that there will be enough new consoles produced to absolutely kill the 2600 homebrew program. But again, what the hell do I know anyhow?

 

In the early days of Apple II and Atari VCS - I rarely worried about compatibility. I plugged the stuff in, and it worked. Only toward the middle and wanning years of the Apple II did backwards compatibility start becoming important. At first it was a minor annoyance to convert some programs to understand both upper & lower case text, or to account for different ROM revisions.

 

But as more and more peripherals entered the market, each with its own way of doing something AND at the same time supporting MOST of the previous standards things were becoming "diverse" and more tedious. Yes, it was the peripherals that caused the most headaches. Not all modems were supported by all Telecom packages. Or all printers supported by your art program. And not all copy programs could handle extended disk formats, either a "soft" hack to add 1 track or a modified drive to handle 5 more tracks, or something entirely new like a Rana Drive or real Hard Disk. More and more varied software was needed to support all these new products. Most could be made compatible with each other, but it was more work to achieve that interoperability than which appeared on the surface.

 

---

 

IMHO I believe it best to program to the lowest common denominator and original hardware. This means the original VCS console as sold in the 70's and 80's. Those consoles and their revisions. That's base model and benchmark. Everything must work on those first and foremost. Those represent the gold standard.

 

Deviating from that by programming for inaccurate VCS replicas/clones made today is wrong and encourages further inaccuracy down the line. Any and all remakes of the original console have a responsibility to be as accurate and truthful as possible. Anything less simply demonstrates laziness and isn't good for the community.

 

At the same time I don't mind anyone developing a MegaVCS with 8x 6502 processors and quad-TIA chips chomping at the bit.

Edited July 19, 2018 by Keatah

[Andromeda Stardust]

Next time you respond to such ***censored***, please don't quote. Thanks!

I added spoiler tags...

[Andromeda Stardust]

 

Opinions born out of innocence and "clean-slate" are quite insightful. They are not prejudiced or biased or tainted by preconceived notions or fear. It's like with aircraft accident investigations. The investigators get a call to go on-site, and they turn off their car radios and don't use the internet till they arrive. They don't want any sort of bias.

 

 

 

In the early days of Apple II and Atari VCS - I rarely worried about compatibility. I plugged the stuff in, and it worked. Only toward the middle and wanning years of the Apple II did backwards compatibility start becoming important. At first it was a minor annoyance to convert some programs to understand both upper & lower case text, or to account for different ROM revisions.

 

But as more and more peripherals entered the market, each with its own way of doing something AND at the same time supporting MOST of the previous standards things were becoming "diverse" and more tedious. Yes, it was the peripherals that caused the most headaches. Not all modems were supported by all Telecom packages. Or all printers supported by your art program. And not all copy programs could handle extended disk formats, either a "soft" hack to add 1 track or a modified drive to handle 5 more tracks, or something entirely new like a Rana Drive or real Hard Disk. More and more varied software was needed to support all these new products. Most could be made compatible with each other, but it was more work to achieve that interoperability than which appeared on the surface.

 

---

 

IMHO I believe it best to program to the lowest common denominator and original hardware. This means the original VCS console as sold in the 70's and 80's. Those consoles and their revisions. That's base model and benchmark. Everything must work on those first and foremost. Those represent the gold standard.

 

Deviating from that by programming for inaccurate VCS replicas/clones made today is wrong and encourages further inaccuracy down the line. Any and all remakes of the original console have a responsibility to be as accurate and truthful as possible. Anything less simply demonstrates laziness and isn't good for the community.

 

At the same time I don't mind anyone developing a MegaVCS with 8x 6502 processors and quad-TIA chips chomping at the bit.

This is one of the beauties of a video game console. Every game made for it just works. With computers, you get gray area. Suppose a programmer writes a value to an lower bank of memory, then reads said value from a higher bank (mirror of the lower bank). Yes it is sloppy programming, but it works, until someone comes along and adds an extra ram module to the 8-bit PC, then it's reading a different address than the one written to and the software is broken.

 

With PCs, there are endless configurations of operating systems and hardware configurations. A 32-bit program developed for Windows 98 with a Pentium MMX 233Mhx CPU and 32 Mb of RAM might run on a Windows 10 with 32Gb RAM and an 8-core CPU, but then again it might not. When I built my first PC in 1999, a Win98 SE 400Mhz Celeron with 128Mb RAM (I later upgraded to 256), I started downloading a bunch of old DOS shareware.

 

Some of it ran fine. Some of it ran at "ludicrus speed" making it completely unplayable. So say something designed for a 12Mhz 286 might not like the extra headroom a 400Mhz Celeron CPU affords.

[onemoretime]

 

Opinions born out of innocence and "clean-slate" are quite insightful. They are not prejudiced or biased or tainted by preconceived notions or fear. It's like with aircraft accident investigations. The investigators get a call to go on-site, and they turn off their car radios and don't use the internet till they arrive. They don't want any sort of bias.

 

 

 

In the early days of Apple II and Atari VCS - I rarely worried about compatibility. I plugged the stuff in, and it worked. Only toward the middle and wanning years of the Apple II did backwards compatibility start becoming important. At first it was a minor annoyance to convert some programs to understand both upper & lower case text, or to account for different ROM revisions.

 

But as more and more peripherals entered the market, each with its own way of doing something AND at the same time supporting MOST of the previous standards things were becoming "diverse" and more tedious. Yes, it was the peripherals that caused the most headaches. Not all modems were supported by all Telecom packages. Or all printers supported by your art program. And not all copy programs could handle extended disk formats, either a "soft" hack to add 1 track or a modified drive to handle 5 more tracks, or something entirely new like a Rana Drive or real Hard Disk. More and more varied software was needed to support all these new products. Most could be made compatible with each other, but it was more work to achieve that interoperability than which appeared on the surface.

 

---

 

IMHO I believe it best to program to the lowest common denominator and original hardware. This means the original VCS console as sold in the 70's and 80's. Those consoles and their revisions. That's base model and benchmark. Everything must work on those first and foremost. Those represent the gold standard.

 

Deviating from that by programming for inaccurate VCS replicas/clones made today is wrong and encourages further inaccuracy down the line. Any and all remakes of the original console have a responsibility to be as accurate and truthful as possible. Anything less simply demonstrates laziness and isn't good for the community.

 

At the same time I don't mind anyone developing a MegaVCS with 8x 6502 processors and quad-TIA chips chomping at the bit.

 

 

Hmmmm. You know, the idear of preserving the system for posterity never really occurred to me, even realizing that the hardware has a limited shelf life. So whats the semi-permanent solution for this? I m not trying to be a wisenheimerhere, but I m somewhat curious if the software could be preserved on vinyl. Might make for an interesting supercharger conversion.

[Lord Thag]

Stalking huh, that's funny. The problem with Ignore is every once in a while somebody will quote a post by Mr SQL, like Kosmic Stardust just did, which results in me seeing it. Inevitably its something derogatory about Stella or my work.

 

In the topic mentioned from back in May, enthusi posted something dismissing the need to optimize ARM code, followed by a post by Mr SQL. I replied to enthusi with 2 posts about optimizing (first one dismissing his belief, the second with the results of a few weeks of optimizing we did for Stay Frosty 2 that freed up almost 2K of ROM). My replies were immediately followed by another post by Mr SQL (seems like he's doing the stalking to me ). My assumption at the time was Mr SQL was trying to provoke things, so said as much in my next reply in the topic so others would know why I wasn't taking the bait.

 

Just checked those 2 replies now and yep, they come across as dismissive of my work. Sure those specific replies alone are not too bad, but in the context of prior comments I'd seen they paint an ugly picture. I periodically click View it Anyway?, like I did this morning, as sometimes I remove people from my Ignore list. At this point in time Mr SQL will remain there.

Well, ignore that stuff. Seriously, the games you've written for the Atari have given me (and many friends) dozens of hours of enjoyment. I play the regularly. Tons of people here love and respect your work, so don't let the occasional complaint distort that. I can assure you, the negativity is NOT a fair reflection.

 

I appreciate anyone who spends time and effort programming, troubleshooting (like stephena in this thread) or archiving (say Atarimania or Fandal) our hobby. All of it has enriched our already fun hobby.

 

So keep doing what you do.

[Keatah]

Hmmmm. You know, the idear of preserving the system for posterity never really occurred to me, even realizing that the hardware has a limited shelf life. So whats the semi-permanent solution for this? I m not trying to be a wisenheimerhere, but I m somewhat curious if the software could be preserved on vinyl. Might make for an interesting supercharger conversion.

 

 

I don't know if there is any one single best medium suited for preservation. And there are different kinds of preservation. Take for example Arcade cabinets. Enthusiasts say they are preserving history by repairing and restoring the cabs and their electronics. Mame developers say they are preserving history by documenting the inner workings of the PCB and software - with the end result being a faithful reproduction of the original game playable across hundreds or thousands of platforms. I say I'm preserving history by collecting and digitally hoarding everything I get my grubby little paws on.

 

So. Tell me. Who is right? And what is the best method? I personally believe it's a multifaceted problem and many different things need to be done. Many fronts. Many efforts. Many different media used. And when it comes to preservation I feel that efforts which result in workable, playable, systems, both virtual and real solve a good portion of the problem.

 

I nod toward virtual systems because they are versatile and can be easily adapted to the handicapped. That and their remarkable reliability and consistency.

 

As far as preserving software, same thing, multiple formats across multiple types of media. Cassette, HDD, SSD, Vinyl (ok..), printouts stored in a nuclear bunker.. Lots of choices.

 

My concern with the choice of vinyl is the pops that seem inherent to the medium. How will the SuperCharger handle that? Will it be an issue? And speed of playback, does it vary more than cassette? And what sort of material would the vinyl record be made of? Surely there's been a variety of tweaks and variants that've been used throughout the ages? Some better than others?

 

---

 

I firmly believe that any form of preservation MUST include an easy mode of access. Does no one any good to have source listings locked away in that hidden nuclear bunker that no one knows about. Preservation by Pervasiveness is my motto. The more widely distributed something is the less likelyhood of it becoming defunct or knocked out by disaster.

 

Example: I'm restoring an old computer. And I need a certain DDO tool for an ancient HDD. I found the tool on the internet via an FTP search engine. While I'm sure the manufacturer of the drive may have copies of the tool someplace on their premises, they have not made it available. It does me NO GOOD that I can't get at it. So why bother? The FTP site worked fine. It did its job of preservation fine.

Edited July 19, 2018 by Keatah

[Mr SQL]

Stalking huh, that's funny. The problem with Ignore is every once in a while somebody will quote a post by Mr SQL, like Kosmic Stardust just did, which results in me seeing it. Inevitably its something derogatory about Stella or my work.

 

In the topic mentioned from back in May, enthusi posted something dismissing the need to optimize ARM code, followed by a post by Mr SQL. I replied to enthusi with 2 posts about optimizing (first one dismissing his belief, the second with the results of a few weeks of optimizing we did for Stay Frosty 2 that freed up almost 2K of ROM). My replies were immediately followed by another post by Mr SQL (seems like he's doing the stalking to me ). My assumption at the time was Mr SQL was trying to provoke things, so said as much in my next reply in the topic so others would know why I wasn't taking the bait.

 

Just checked those 2 replies now and yep, they come across as dismissive of my work. Sure those specific replies alone are not too bad, but in the context of prior comments I'd seen they paint an ugly picture. I periodically click View it Anyway?, like I did this morning, as sometimes I remove people from my Ignore list. At this point in time Mr SQL will remain there.

 

From my perspective you follow me around when I talk to other programmers and make post after post to derail the conversation then get increasingly upset when I ignore you.

 

It took you two posts to get a response from me and the escalation was all you, please stop doing this:

 

[AtariLeaf]

Inevitably its something derogatory about Stella or my work.

 

 

I wouldn't worry about it Daryl. Everyone else around here appreciates and values you. Space Rocks and Draconian are my two all time favorite 2600 games now. Atari SA, Hyperkin - they aren't Atari, homebrewers like you ARE Atari IMO.

[Keatah]

I wouldn't worry about it Daryl. Everyone else around here appreciates and values you. Space Rocks and Draconian are my two all time favorite 2600 games now. Atari SA, Hyperkin - they aren't Atari, homebrewers like you ARE Atari IMO.

 

IMHO these commercial products have too much cost-cutting and not enough time involved in their making. To me that makes them 2nd rate and just "ok" products overall. Their creators can try and justify it any way they want. Still 2nd rate. So to developers of those things, I say, impress me. Give me something that makes me go wow!

 

Most homebrewers I've tracked over the years take whatever time is necessary to make their games and brew their wares. That's important and shows in the finished products. All the attention to detail..

[onemoretime]

I guess Stella is the only easy to use plug and play emulator for 2600 that I ve ever tried. I fooled with Mame and Mess years ago and got them to work after much tribulation, but again, I m not really a software type guy. I ve still yet to find a dedicated 5200 emulator that was simple to setup for windows.

Edited July 19, 2018 by onemoretime

[SIO2]

Thanks to alex_79 in the retron 77 comparability thread, can now make a reset cart to get back to the menu w/o power off.

 

Edited July 20, 2018 by SIO2

[+remowilliams]

Thanks to alex_79 in the retron 77 comparability thread, can now make a reset cart to get back to the menu w/o power off.

 

Hah, neat!

 

Now I just need to get their posted build environment/toolchain to stop arguing with me and compile, and maybe I can change that stupidly useless 'Fry button' to be an actual 'reset' ...

[gorfcadet]

is there a way to make the new sd card image on a Mac, or just wait for Hyperkin to catch up? Thanks in advance guys!