RetroN 77

[gorfcadet]

Haha, that's awesome. So glad my icons came in handy!

 

Hey, I was going to make an update video since the rom limit is gone and stephena has gotten us on a newer Stella. Is it ok if I credit you for your awesome Space Invader icons? They should make those official in their next release IMHO.

[Keatah]

No, parts of the ROM image cannot be accessed by the 6507.

 

Then the games should be re-coded and modified to work on the R77!

[SIO2]

 

Then the games should be re-coded and modified to work on the R77! leaving.gif

Yup, get cracking because these Retron 77 are going to be taking over. Just hauling a big box of crusty old 2600's to the dump now.

 

Ha. Just kidding.

 

Actually, I am hoping Hyperkin hasn't killed the Retron 77 with the rough release. I watched an unboxing video on Youtube where the guy was so excited to get his R77 then the dang thing wouldn't even boot.

 

I really love the Retron 77 and if they put the effort into fixing the dumper and making a better than bare bones menu for roms I think it could really be something. What I think I see happening though is Hyperkin saying "let's see how these sell before we put the effort in" while the pubic is saying, "let's see if they put the effort in and fix this thing before we buy it."

 

Not sure how this will play out at this point. But I am glad to have my R77.

Edited July 21, 2018 by SIO2

[Keatah]

I'm sorry but I'm not fully behind this, yet. There are too many exceptions and "rules" and caveats that are cropping up.

 

The "cartridge experience" is supposed to be:

 

1- Open the box.

2- Connect the system.

3- Insert cartridge.

4- Play the game.

 

And from what I read here and gather from elsewhere, it happens about 70%, maybe 80%, of the time when all is said and done.

 

In the early (and pioneering on top of it!) days that's what we had. That's what we had in 1977 through the SNES/PS1 era. There was no modding the console out of necessity, playing with the firmware and software out of necessity. No building things to add common-sense functionality.

 

Nor did we have to ask parts suppliers or programmers to make changes to components to make the system work in a common-sense manner. And by that I mean "..works in the way you'd expect."

 

---

 

When I look back at MY personal VCS experience from 1977 through about 1986. I didn't have nearly as much trouble in all that time as we're having in just a month or two.

 

1- All the controllers I had worked. There was no ambiguity.

2- All the cartridges I had worked. I didn't have to make a list.

3- The design of the VCS didn't change significantly throughout its lifecycle. Today, with these remake retro consoles, it seems like the designers are putting the batter in left field and the catcher on first base. While everyone in the audience is an umpire with no real say-so.

[Keatah]

I really love the Retron 77 and if they put the effort into fixing the dumper and making a better than bare bones menu for roms I think it could really be something. What I think I see happening though is Hyperkin saying "let's see how these sell before we put the effort in" while the pubic is saying, "let's see if they put the effort in and fix this thing before we buy it."

 

Done right, I believe most remakes of vintage consoles can be done right. Right enough to make them highly desirable. I emphasize "can", because not all of them are. But there are examples of "done right".

 

Cartridges and dumping? No. We're too far along in the evolution of the console they're trying to recreate. Too many tips & tricks are being used to push the hardware into new territory. And the farther we go the more accurate the reproduction has to be. And good enough is, guess what, not good enough.

 

Back in the day, we were not beta testers. The only thing we "tested" was the limit of the artform itself. What new games can be made? How far can something go? None of that is happening here. If it was, the design of the console would be completely different and much more grand and expansive. No typo.

 

What I'm seeing is a way to relive cartridges - the act of inserting and pulling out. Because cartridges! Nothing wrong in that. Most all of us like carts anyways. I don't see enough effort to dot the "i"s and cross the "T"s. Like for example how would I play keyboard games like Basic Programming? Or Star Raiders with the Touchpad? And reports are the paddles seem to be hit or miss..?

 

If I'm wrong in my perception (wouldn't be the 1st time) please school me up. OldStyle!

Edited July 21, 2018 by Keatah

[dashv]

No one complains that NES and SNES emulators cover all sorts of add-on chips and processors and stuff those systems use in their cartridges. Nobody argues that a Super-FX game shouldn't be called a SNES game.

Thank you. Exactly what I have been thinking this entire time.

[phoenixdownita]

Definitely an interesting point. Out of 262 scanlines of processing time for NTSC, typically only about 25% of them are used for game logic as the other 75% must draw the screen.

QQ: given that the 7800 uses a 6502C and not a 6507 and that the 7800 cart pinout brings out Sally HALT signal would it be actually possible to have a 2600-mode game on the 7800 that takes over the complete bus cycle (HALT the 6502C and then drives everything else from the cart given that the 7800 has an R/W pin as well at the cart) and thus doesn't need a gfx kernel at all on the 6502?

 

[i know that the same theoretically applies in 7800 mode but just curious if there are other signals hidden on a 7800 in 2600 mode that would prevent a guest processor at the cart from taking over complete control of the bus, a real 2600 misses the R/W signal to even allow commandeering TIA/RIOT from the cart, basically not sure if in case one can obviate in SW to the absence of the RDY signal at the cart to sync with TIA]

[Andromeda Stardust]

That is because nobody cares about Nintendo like we care about Atari.

 

That's a bit short sighted eh? Who's to say we can't enjoy Nintendo or Sega? The Melody arm coprocessor has analogs on snes (fx, sa-1) and Genesis (Virtua Racing chip). I'm avoiding the mapper bonanza on NES because there's too many to name. Coprocessors ranged in complexity from a single 74xx series logic chip to advanced mmc chips to famicom carts with synth hardware.

 

I am a Nintendo fanboy, owning most every system they produced save for the virtual boy. I also own Sega Genesis, SMS (Powerbase Mini), 2600, 7800, Lynx, and Turbografx/PCe. Well, I also got a PS3 I rarely play anymore. Notable clone systems include the AVS, Super NT, Super Retro Trio + Advance gameport (GBA clone that plugs into an SNES slot), Retrofreak, and now Retron77.

 

After reading Racing the Beam and buying a VCS in 2012, Atari quickly became my second favorite hardware company next to Nintendo, maybe tied with Sega. Nintendo is still around making excellent hardware and games, and Sega is still around as a third party developer. And some posers masquerading as modern day Atari are trying to put out a generic Linux box at 200% markup disguised as a game console.

[Andromeda Stardust]

Hey, I was going to make an update video since the rom limit is gone and stephena has gotten us on a newer Stella. Is it ok if I credit you for your awesome Space Invader icons? They should make those official in their next release IMHO.

Go for it. Doubt it'll ever happen as they'll need Taito's permission to lift the Space Invader sprites for commercial use. But for customizations yeah, feel free to redistribute.

[Andromeda Stardust]

I'm sorry but I'm not fully behind this, yet. There are too many exceptions and "rules" and caveats that are cropping up.

 

The "cartridge experience" is supposed to be:

 

1- Open the box.

2- Connect the system.

3- Insert cartridge.

4- Play the game.

 

And from what I read here and gather from elsewhere, it happens about 70%, maybe 80%, of the time when all is said and done.

 

In the early (and pioneering on top of it!) days that's what we had. That's what we had in 1977 through the SNES/PS1 era. There was no modding the console out of necessity, playing with the firmware and software out of necessity. No building things to add common-sense functionality.

 

Nor did we have to ask parts suppliers or programmers to make changes to components to make the system work in a common-sense manner. And by that I mean "..works in the way you'd expect."

 

---

 

When I look back at MY personal VCS experience from 1977 through about 1986. I didn't have nearly as much trouble in all that time as we're having in just a month or two.

 

1- All the controllers I had worked. There was no ambiguity.

2- All the cartridges I had worked. I didn't have to make a list.

3- The design of the VCS didn't change significantly throughout its lifecycle. Today, with these remake retro consoles, it seems like the designers are putting the batter in left field and the catcher on first base. While everyone in the audience is an umpire with no real say-so.

In 1977, plugging anything into the tv and controlling an onscreen object with a joystick or paddle (not pong related) was a novel concept and nothing short of amazing. People did not care about snowy reception or color drift. They did care that the device booted the games...

[Andromeda Stardust]

QQ: given that the 7800 uses a 6502C and not a 6507 and that the 7800 cart pinout brings out Sally HALT signal would it be actually possible to have a 2600-mode game on the 7800 that takes over the complete bus cycle (HALT the 6502C and then drives everything else from the cart given that the 7800 has an R/W pin as well at the cart) and thus doesn't need a gfx kernel at all on the 6502?

 

[i know that the same theoretically applies in 7800 mode but just curious if there are other signals hidden on a 7800 in 2600 mode that would prevent a guest processor at the cart from taking over complete control of the bus, a real 2600 misses the R/W signal to even allow commandeering TIA/RIOT from the cart, basically not sure if in case one can obviate in SW to the absence of the RDY signal at the cart to sync with TIA]

Iicr, that pin is on the exapnded connector so a 2600 compatible game can't do that.

[alex_79]

I think phoenixdownita means a game that uses a 7800 cart board (with full edge connector), but that runs in 2600 mode. The HALT line will be available to the cartridge in that case.

[Keatah]

In 1977, plugging anything into the tv and controlling an onscreen object with a joystick or paddle (not pong related) was a novel concept and nothing short of amazing. People did not care about snowy reception or color drift. They did care that the device booted the games...

 

Even now, I could see my 10-year old self back then not really caring about a snowy image that had CB and PoliceRadio harmonic lines in it. But I do recall being frustrated with anything that didn't turn on or work as I expected.

 

Of course back then we had no preconceived notions about how something should operate.

[+ZeroPage Homebrew]

The RetroUSB AVS is an extremely well thought out beautiful machine made with care that has unbelievably high compatibility rates. I love playing games it and I am also hoping one day an equivalent will be made for the VCS so we can keep playing all the games we love for another 40+ years!

 

I paid $200 ish for a RetroUSB AVS this year. Plays all NES and Famicom games via hardware not software emulation for lack of a better term. Not had a issue with any of the carts Ive tried from both systems. Very very well built machine.

Id pay the same for a nice HDMI Atari cart taking machine! But yeah they could add a 2600/7800 cart port and a Jag or 5200 port if not all three.

Sign me up.

[RugglesTx]

The RetroUSB AVS is an extremely well thought out beautiful machine made with care that has unbelievably high compatibility rates. I love playing games it and I am also hoping one day an equivalent will be made for the VCS so we can keep playing all the games we love for another 40+ years!

 

Im with you, Id buy one tomorrow and never look back. Lets hope we get the chance one day,

[Lord Thag]

The RetroUSB AVS is an extremely well thought out beautiful machine made with care that has unbelievably high compatibility rates. I love playing games it and I am also hoping one day an equivalent will be made for the VCS so we can keep playing all the games we love for another 40+ years!

 

Yeah, while all of the current options are really targeting the fad/casual; crowd, I do believe there is a small market for a deluxe product like the AVS. I would buy one in a heartbeat.

Edited July 22, 2018 by Lord Thag

[phoenixdownita]

I think phoenixdownita means a game that uses a 7800 cart board (with full edge connector), but that runs in 2600 mode. The HALT line will be available to the cartridge in that case.

 

Yep, that's what I meant.

[Jim Pez]

I put all the original game roms on my sd card. Is there any way to alphabetize them ?

Edited July 23, 2018 by jim1174

[Keatah]

some pages back there is description of a utility that will do exactly that. I forget the name offhand.

[Andromeda Stardust]

I think phoenixdownita means a game that uses a 7800 cart board (with full edge connector), but that runs in 2600 mode. The HALT line will be available to the cartridge in that case.

 

Yes, in this particular case, it would be a "hybrid" game cart that functions only on 7800 using 2600 compatibility mode. People have asked about 2600 software unlocking various 7800 exclusive features like extra RAM or address space, but the 7800 bios disables these things when booting carts into 2600 mode. Once 2600 mode is set, the 7800 features are locked out.

 

So you would need a custom bios that enables the tia and disables maria without ie limiting the system ram, address space, or throttling the cpu to 2/3 of it's native 1.79mhz clock speed. I'm not familiar enough with 7800 architecture to know whether or not it is possible to leave individual 7800 specific components running, however running such a game on unmodified hardware would need to pass the bios check by first booting into 7800 mode, then enabling the tia and disabling the maria without cutting the ram and address space.

 

Such games, if feasible, would have full access to the 7800 system ram, 32/48 kbytes cart address space without the need for additional bankswitching, but graphics and audio would still be limited to the 2 player sprite, 2 misssiles, 1 ball, and 40 extra wide playfield pixels per scanline. So I'm not sure games could look any better graphically than modern melody homebrew, and still be limited to play only on 7800 systems. They might make great homebrew demos for future *fully functional* 7800 flash carts however.

 

If such homebrew ever exist, I'm sure it would be easier to add extra ram and address space to stella by emulating the full 6502 instead of the 6507, rather than adding tia video support to prosystem, mess, or whatever.

[phoenixdownita]

Yes, in this particular case, it would be a "hybrid" game cart that functions only on 7800 using 2600 compatibility mode. People have asked about 2600 software unlocking various 7800 exclusive features like extra RAM or address space, but the 7800 bios disables these things when booting carts into 2600 mode. Once 2600 mode is set, the 7800 features are locked out.

 

So you would need a custom bios .....

I'd be fine by just having the HALT pin commandeer the 6502C into submission and let the ARM in the cart do everything else (no need for RAM mapped into the 2600 or any high clock or anything really, the CPU won't likely be used at all).

In this setup the 7800 is the shell containing RIOT (for switch/port) and TIA (for gfx/sound out) ... everything else is on the guest processor board.

It was a theoretical question as I recall having seen an ARM board connected to a Vectrex rendering Doom in real time (the Vectrex was used as a display processor only at that point http://spritesmods.com/?art=veccart&page=5 )

[alex_79]

When in 2600 mode, the 7800 disables Maria and the 4k internal ram and it maps TIA and RIOT to the same addresses (and mirrors) as in the 2600. But it doesn't disable the extra address lines. There's circuitry on the board to disable some of those, but that's used in case the 7800 bios is selected (else its addresses would overlap some of the cart ones).

 

When the cart is selected, all the addres lines are there, no matter if in 2600 or 7800 mode. A 2600-mode game on a 7800 board can have up to 32k of non banckswitched address space, plus the extra signals necessary to install a standard SRAM chip without any additional hardware.

 

A version of 2600 "Save Mary" was once available from Video61 that did exactly that: it used a 7800 board with standard EPROM, SRAM and nothing else (before the Harmony/Melody, basically the only option for 2600 games with extra ram was to scavenge old SARA chips from original carts).

 

I suppose the HALT line can be used too to allow a coprocessor on the cart to directly drive the TIA, but I don't know for sure.

Edited July 23, 2018 by alex_79

[Mr SQL]

It was a theoretical question as I recall having seen an ARM board connected to a Vectrex rendering Doom in real time (the Vectrex was used as a display processor only at that point http://spritesmods.com/?art=veccart&page=5 )

 

Careful, some of the folks on this thread can get very upset if you mention that

 

Friendly discussion as to weather the ARM board is actually a co-processor sharing the rendering with the 6502 or the main CPU are welcome (and interesting if anyone has a co-processor argument).

 

For the angry folk, before you get cranky and starts throwing insults again consider that several of my advanced Atari games come bundled with the Retron77 and I've created two programming languages that anyone can use to write Atari games that will run on the Retron and all Atari consoles. I've even helped the Stella team by working closely with Eckhard and Batari in private discussion threads to fix SuperCharger bugs in the Stella codebase (Eckhard's bugs). I'll be happy to help Stephena fix the issue anytime provided he stops throwing insults, but it requires a knowledge of Assembly since it's a low level bug.

[RevEng]

I suppose the HALT line can be used too to allow a coprocessor on the cart to directly drive the TIA, but I don't know for sure.

I'm aware of some tests that CPUWIZ made in this area. While it's not the intended use of the pin, he could successfully halt the 6502 via the cart. (not relevant for this application, but worth mentioning that removing halt was a mixed bag. I'm guessing the failures were due to the clock phase being unpredictable when halt was lowered.)

 

So I'm pretty sure this could be done. As you said, it would be only for 2600 mode, and only then after the bios did two INPTCTRL writes. (some time ago I looked at halt as a possible method to override the bios signature checks)

 

This scheme would be definitely be the ultimate in TIA dumb-terminal mode. The only TIA constraints that you'd be bounded by are the pixel clock width (160px visible), and color chroma+luma resolution. No reason to be bounded by TIA audio even, given the cartridge audio pin and the ease of setting up PWM on a modern microcontroller.

 

It's an interesting mental exercise, but I personally have no interest in such a hack. I like working with the 7800 architecture, and this nearly entirely removes the flavor of the hardware.

[phoenixdownita]

...

 

It's an interesting mental exercise, but I personally have no interest in such a hack. I like working with the 7800 architecture, and this nearly entirely removes the flavor of the hardware.

But it would possibly tell us the limits of the TIA itself ... no? Can one change the color on a pixel boundary if it were to write fast enough to the TIA?

If so would that allow a manner of soft-sprites on TIA?

(again not sure the lack of explicit HBLANK signal [RDY on the 2600] would be cause for the whole exercise to just not work)