Great classic-era game ideas that have been forgotton

[CatPix]

I can see how they are are related, but again, PNC aren't text adventure games, and adventure/exploration games like Until Dawn aren't text games either.

You don't point, you don't click on Until Dawn.

That migt be specific, but that's the idea in giving gameplay types different names.

 

And it's not a LucasArt or Sierra Online specific thing.

Several other game companies made PNC i the most traditionnal way up to the mid 2000's with some ate games such as Black Mirror III released in 2010 (tho arguably it was delayed and it was almost an indie game at this point)

 

When I say JRPG, it refers to a specific type of RPG. When I say text adventure game, it refers to a specific type of game.

 

If I say "text adventure game" and you see "Until Dawn" there is a problem.

Now if I ask "what's the modern iteration of text-adventure game?" and you answer "Until Dawn", I agree. But that still doesn't make "Until Dawn" a PNC, Else, you turn almost all exploration games into PNC. Silent Hill : you move your character, you point to items, you pick them, combine them and use them! It's a PNC then?

 

That would be like calling "Super Mario Odyssey" a "2D scrolling platformer" because the first Super Mario Bros was one. It doesn't quite work that way

[BassGuitari]

To continue on "absurd setups on 80/90 games" ... I like Doom but I never understood those little 3feet by 3feet rooms that open up as you pass by (or something) and contain a single angry monster that comes after you.

They make for an interesting, thrilling moment in the game for sure, but aside from that what the heck is that monster doing in that closet to begin with? Did it know we were coming and decided to play hide and seek? Would he die of hunger/tedium were we not to "activate" its door? Is it just stuck there?

 

Second part is the key placement in Doom, who would go all the way to the other end of a building to place the key to open a door on this side? Seriously!!! Who does that?

I understand it makes for a forcing function to explore the level but it's highly illogical.

"It's an emergency key" you say, "in case you lost the other one" ..... dunno, I'm carrying 6 weapons among which there is a chainsaw, a rocket launcher a BFG9000 but a lock-picker would have taken too much space?

Best not to overthink Doom or monster closets. 'Cause why stop there? How is there a breathable atmosphere on Phobos, and grassy mountains that look like southeast Asia? How is it humanly possible to carry 800 pounds of weapons and ammo? Why is every key booby-trapped to open up a monster closet right behind me and/or right in front of my face?

 

("Monster closet" is actually the term used by Doom community, fyi.)

 

The best Doom games are custom WADs and community projects, anyway. Many of which are much more realistic.

[Flojomojo]

Well said. DOOM makes exactly as much sense as monster-infested catacombs in D&D or the dungeon crawlers they inspired.

[DickNixonArisen]

I love overthinking video game/fiction/RPG setups and especially how Dungeons and Dragons kind of tried to explain some of the idiosyncrasies of the existence of a "Dungeon" by making up monsters that dug the tunnels, spread the stuff around, cleaned it up, etc. A whole 'dungeon ecology' that did, or was supposed to, explain what was going on when the 'heroes' weren't there trying to stab everybody and take their stuff. So yah those monsters were in some kind of biological or magical STASIS bro. or those are their sleeping chambers and they're trying to catch a nap.

 

I always imagined that if I was an evil necromancer out in my castle full of minions & stuff I'd just leave one floating platform out. Just... one. You fight your way through all 9 levels of action & terror and then there's just oooooonnnne impossible jump that looks doable. Just a pixel short of possible. I'd sit there eating popcorn & shucking kittens (gotta stay evil) and watch them try and make the jump.

[DickNixonArisen]

As a DM I always like to add recently-messed with scenery and details to add realism like... traps that are already sprung with or without victims, signs of previous fights, bloodstains, pre-plundered areas, even other adventurers down there, to alleviate the sense that the dungeon was a set piece that was frozen in time before the party went in. A lot of the old modules had sentences like "before noon, the goblins are usually found in the romper room ball pit, unless the trap in area 3 has been activated, in which case they can be found in area 17 brushing their teeth; after noon they take nappies in area 19" which, if you actually followed them, made figuring out who was where a lot more complicated but did add realism. I don't really remember a whole lot of monsters that had no life other than sitting around waiting for their door to get kicked in, or treasure that was hidden in impractical ways. Treasure was usually hidden in places where someone would semi-logically have stashed it.

[zzip]

Well said. DOOM makes exactly as much sense as monster-infested catacombs in D&D or the dungeon crawlers they inspired.

I think a lot of people's experience with D&D was they'd buy the Monster Manuals and be like "Wow, I want some of these, some of those, a few of those in my fdungeon". So they'd end up creating an adventure that made no logical sense except to exist as a pure hack-and-slash fest.

 

I know I fell into that trap at first Later I put story first and added appropriate monsters as needed.

 

Same with Doom- those engines were new and exciting. "Lets put in monster closets because we can". Gamers didn't care because it was all novel to them too.

[zzip]

You don't point, you don't click on Until Dawn.

Actually you do. There's items to examine, totems to pick up. Half the game is walking around looking for things like that- similar to a point and click.

 

And it's not a LucasArt or Sierra Online specific thing.

Several other game companies made PNC i the most traditionnal way up to the mid 2000's with some ate games such as Black Mirror III released in 2010 (tho arguably it was delayed and it was almost an indie game at this point)

Some games were heavily influenced by LucasArts, certainly. But that doesn't mean it's the "correct" way to do these games.

 

If I say "text adventure game" and you see "Until Dawn" there is a problem.

I don't think I ever called Until Dawn a text adventure, I compared it to a point and click.

 

Now if I ask "what's the modern iteration of text-adventure game?" and you answer "Until Dawn", I agree. But that still doesn't make "Until Dawn" a PNC, Else, you turn almost all exploration games into PNC. Silent Hill : you move your character, you point to items, you pick them, combine them and use them! It's a PNC then?

I've not played SH, but if it plays as you described, then yes, it's an iteration on the concept.

 

That would be like calling "Super Mario Odyssey" a "2D scrolling platformer" because the first Super Mario Bros was one. It doesn't quite work that way

It's a platformer. The 2D is just an extra adjective to differentiate it from others. Just like J is an adjective to describe a style of RPG, but JRPGs were still influenced by western RPGs

 

It sounds like you prefer a specific style of these point and click games, which is fine, but that doesn't mean the other games aren't related.

[CatPix]

Actually you do. There's items to examine, totems to pick up. Half the game is walking around looking for things like that- similar to a point and click.

 

Well it's an adventure game.

 

Some games were heavily influenced by LucasArts, certainly. But that doesn't mean it's the "correct" way to do these games.

For being a PNC, yes, it is. You point, and click.

 

I don't think I ever called Until Dawn a text adventure, I compared it to a point and click.

I never said you did. But you keep saying that because newer games have inherited from PNC, they should be called PNC. So by your logic, They could be called text adventure games, because PNC were born from adapting the Text Adventure game style to use a mouse rather than the keyboard.

And still by your logic, Super Mario Odyssey is a 2D platformer, because the first one was.

 

I've not played SH, but if it plays as you described, then yes, it's an iteration on the concept.

As are most games in the "adventure" genre. But try to go anywhere selling Silent Hill as a PNC. Can't wait to hear your feedback on that.

 

It's a platformer. The 2D is just an extra adjective to differentiate it from others. Just like J is an adjective to describe a style of RPG, but JRPGs were still influenced by western RPGs

That's the whole idea! Fallout 4 isn't a JRPG. It's a RPG, but if I call it JRPG that wouldn't be correct, and you could point it to be that it's wrong (regardless of how you define JRPG because either definitions are not fitting in the case of Fallout 4). It doesn't change the fact that it remains a RPG.

 

It sounds like you prefer a specific style of these point and click games, which is fine, but that doesn't mean the other games aren't related.

Do you even read what I write? I said countless time that I can see how those newer games are related to PNC, but that because they are related doesn't mean they are the same.

PNC mean "Point and click".

That mean "bringing your mouse cursor and click". If you leave those characteristic, defining gameplay actions aside, then it's no longer a PNC.

Which doesn't mean it doesn't bring the same experience, or narrative value, or relaxed game play style. But they aren't the same. As your said yourself, most of those games have been changed to be played on consoles.

Call them " interactive adventure" (as Wikipedia define Until Dawn) "interactive movie" (that would define Heavy Rain) but you can't call PNC a game where none of those actions are made.

Edited August 2, 2017 by CatPix

[zzip]

Do you even read what I write? I said countless time that I can see how those newer games are related to PNC, but that because they are related doesn't mean they are the same.

PNC mean "Point and click".

That mean "bringing your mouse cursor and click". If you leave those characteristic, defining gameplay actions aside, then it's no longer a PNC.

Which doesn't mean it doesn't bring the same experience, or narrative value, or relaxed game play style. But they aren't the same. As your said yourself, most of those games have been changed to be played on consoles.

Call them " interactive adventure" (as Wikipedia define Until Dawn) "interactive movie" (that would define Heavy Rain) but you can't call PNC a game where none of those actions are made.

so if instead of "point and click" with a mouse, you "aim and press" with a controller or "touch and select" with a touchscreen, then it's not point and click? Well that seems like hair-splitting, but ok fine then they aren't technically 'point and click'

[Flojomojo]

Can you two get a room and hug this out? Nobody cares about your ontological definitions of early 1990s adventure games.

 

Here's something to read to each other.

[CatPix]

Yeah you're right. So I'm out, I heard that there is that new racing game out... Splatoon 2

Edited August 3, 2017 by CatPix