moycon Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 It releases the fire button if the engine would blow. And I got down to 5.44. See video above! Great work Thomas! I've heard the claims that Todd cheated years ago and always wondered if there was anything to it. In the end I couldn't care less I guess, it's not like I'll ever meet the man, nor would my life change if he had cheated, but for some reason it's nice to know his crazy scores are at least possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 Yes, it is NTSC based and it also shifts automatically. Thought that's not used in the record. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackAttack Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 (edited) Technically we should take this one step further and repeat those results with an unmodified ROM. Though, what Thomas did is already way more credible than some spreadsheet derived from an undisclosed disassembly. I wonder how much more the time can be improved before we'd hit the real minimum time. Edited August 23, 2017 by ZackAttack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 But what about some of his other contested high scores? I could have sworn there was a list somewhere of the scores that people thought were beyond impossible (like Barnstorming and Sky Jinks). Like I said above, there are people around who claim Todd's scores are impossible. For me they are just jealous and therefore throwing mud at Todd. That or plain narrow minded. And no, I won't give those people credit and go and prove that all of Todd's scores are possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 Technically we should take this one step further and repeat those results with an unmodified ROM. Though, what Thomas did is already way more credible than some spreadsheet derived from an undisclosed disassembly. I wonder how much more the time can be improved before we'd hit the real minimum time. I am definitely unable to repeat that with the original ROM. I have to check what my code does exactly, but you have to trigger the fire button very fast and precise. Not sure about the minimum. The hacked ROM is around, give it a try. The trick is in the video. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tempest Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 For me they are just jealous and therefore throwing mud at Todd. That or plain narrow minded. And no, I won't give those people credit and go and prove that all of Todd's scores are possible. Sorry you feel that way. I honestly don't understand why though. I'm certainly not trying to 'throw mud' at Todd, I'm just curious about the how and why of it all. I honestly never cared about high scores on any system (never competed at them either). Still, you have every right not to investigate any further. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 I was not referring to you, Matt. Sorry if I came over like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+SpiceWare Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 I am definitely unable to repeat that with the original ROM. Maybe add support for an input state batch file to Stella, something like: RESET 10 LEFT 5 FIRE LEFT LEFT FIRE ... hold RESET for 1 frame (1 is default) nothing for 10 frames hold left for 1 frame hold fire for 5 frames hold left and fire for 1 frame ... use your hack to figure out the frame counts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 (edited) Yes, good idea. Like what I once had hard coded into z26 for Pitfall!. Create an "enhancement" issue, please. I wonder if there are keyboard recorders who provide that functionality. Edited August 23, 2017 by Thomas Jentzsch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+SpiceWare Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 Create an "enhancement" issue, please. Done, though I didn't see a way to flag it as an enhancement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 I did that for you. It got a "label". 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.Yancey Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 (edited) This issue with the "perfect shifting" example on YouTube is that it allows the Dragster to start moving before the countdown is completed. You can see that the dragster moves about an inch or more off of the starting line before the counter reaches zero. That's how the times in the 4.xx seconds are achieved on this hacked rom. Thomas' version looks different and does not do that, making his version much more accurate. Todd's Dragster score is NOT fake. I've seen him get 5.57. I've gotten 5.61 many times and one day will get a 5.57. https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=54&v=A7W19PDpIHw Edited August 23, 2017 by D.Yancey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lauren Tyler Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 It's true that PhotoShop didn't exist back in the 1980s, and they did require a photograph. However, that doesn't mean it's a legitimate score either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neotokeo2001 Posted August 24, 2017 Share Posted August 24, 2017 Thomas just laid it out that the time would be possible if you had amazing skill and everything went right, at this point I think that wraps that up. Todd achieved the score and then replicated the score while at Activision. It looks like there is room to improve upon the time. The high score people seem to line up behind their chosen one and throw crap at everyone else. That has to be the most screwed up and vicious circle of people I have seen outside of Jaguar forums. I won't name anyone directly but I don't even follow high scores and I have seen blowouts on Facebook and other forums and one even led to a 2600 homebrew game. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tempest Posted August 24, 2017 Share Posted August 24, 2017 It's true that PhotoShop didn't exist back in the 1980s, and they did require a photograph. However, that doesn't mean it's a legitimate score either. Thomas showed it was possible so that's good enough for me. Sure it takes almost super human timing, but it IS possible and Todd is really good. Case closed as far as I'm concerned. Rather than trying to prove or disprove Todd's scores, maybe we can try and figure out what that absolute maximum score is for each Activision game is. I mean we just discovered that Todd's score wasn't even the best possible. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeremiahK Posted August 24, 2017 Share Posted August 24, 2017 Nice one, Thomas! That was quick, haha. I guess Todd knows how to push the button so that it's barely registering as a push, so he can toggle it faster. I can only imagine how many attempts he needed to get the score! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted August 24, 2017 Share Posted August 24, 2017 (edited) This issue with the "perfect shifting" example on YouTube is that it allows the Dragster to start moving before the countdown is completed. You can see that the dragster moves about an inch or more off of the starting line before the counter reaches zero. That's how the times in the 4.xx seconds are achieved on this hacked rom. Thomas' version looks different and does not do that, making his version much more accurate. Yes, that version seems to be hacked to ignore jumping the gun. Mine only replaces Todd superhuman reflexes with computer AI. No cheating whatsoever. And since the initial shifting is still (partially) controlled by me, I suppose a time of 5.41 might be possible. I think the key problem until now was, that no one except Todd even attempted to play the game like shown in my hack. If you look at the sheet which claims to be optimal, it follows the classic approach of perfect shifting and avoiding to blow the engine. Where the hack allows to shift to 4th gear immediately, keep the clutch engaged all the time and only maximize the revs. I doubt David designed the game to work like that, but probably Todd was able to exploit it like I described here. Edited August 24, 2017 by Thomas Jentzsch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted August 24, 2017 Share Posted August 24, 2017 (edited) There is some (a bit heated) discussion about this at the Twin Galaxies forum. Edited August 24, 2017 by Thomas Jentzsch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homerwannabee Posted August 24, 2017 Author Share Posted August 24, 2017 Can you join the debate Thomas at TG. Some people are treating Omni Gamers argument as the end all be all, and I believe your argument should be heard over there. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted August 24, 2017 Share Posted August 24, 2017 No way! I am not interested into getting into this on that level. This is my hobby and people over there are taking things way too serious IMO. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homerwannabee Posted August 24, 2017 Author Share Posted August 24, 2017 That's because the 5.51 has been put on some kind of gigantic gaming accomplishment pedestal. There is a video on YouTube with millions of views that says Todd's record is one of the three hardest speedruns to break. Omni Gamers video calling Todd's 5.51 a fake has over 1.3 million views. The 5.51 Dragster score is a lot more popular than could imagine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted August 24, 2017 Share Posted August 24, 2017 Maybe, but I am not into record breaking or fame. And I also have no reason to doubt that score (or Todd). Actually I don't care much. For me it was just interesting do replace human skills with computer "AI". That's all. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tempest Posted August 24, 2017 Share Posted August 24, 2017 There is some (a bit heated) discussion about this at the Twin Galaxies forum. No kidding. People are getting nuts over there and Omni can't/won't admit that he might be wrong. Too many angry people... I was not referring to you, Matt. Sorry if I came over like that. No problem. I wasn't sure, but even if you were your opinion is still valid. I just didn't want to come across like I was trying to take Todd down or something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homerwannabee Posted August 24, 2017 Author Share Posted August 24, 2017 My whole point wasn't about fame, but to illustrate the fact the concern over this score isn't limited to Twin Galaxies. It's a lot bigger than people think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted August 24, 2017 Share Posted August 24, 2017 People are getting nuts over there and Omni can't/won't admit that he might be wrong. I might be wrong, who knows? If I ever find out, I will admit. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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