Gummy Bear Posted August 2, 2018 Share Posted August 2, 2018 Pretty Soldier Sailor Moon 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Dragon Posted August 4, 2018 Share Posted August 4, 2018 If I remember correctly, Atari Corp was planning on a Major Havoc Bit of additional info: Jeff did talk of hoping to modify the basic gameplay on Major Havoc 2000, to include a lot of wild shooting, if Atari allowed it. After finishing Tempest 2000 he did ask Atari if they'd like him to do Super Llamatron on Jaguar next?. He got a reply of:maybe... Wasted opportunity by Atari there. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VladR Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 My experience with the Jaguar, and other systems, is that the best way to see if something can be done is to try do it. A prototype you can run, tweak and measure is much more instructive than 100 pages of theory. Plus, what's the point crafting a perfect demonstration that "X" can be done, if you're not actually planning to do "X"? Who said, then when I go full-time with jag, I won't make one of the games to be superscaler-style ? You're wrong on the "theory" point, though. I have benchmarked Blitter's throughput long time ago, so it's actually based on real HW data. I only don't have the numbers on OP scaling throughput. a lot of guessing here ... as usual OK, you gotta help me here with which part of "I benchmarked the jaguar's Blitter scaling throughput both RAM-to-RAM and GPU-to-RAM" don't you understand ? I came back home this week, and after a month-long break should be able to resume jag coding this weekend. I think a simple scaling throughput demo is in order to confirm my "theories"... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+madman Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 Who said, then when I go full-time with jag, I won't make one of the games to be superscaler-style ? Anyone who has been reading your posts for the last 10 years. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VladR Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 Anyone who has been reading your posts for the last 10 years. Must be a reading comprehension issue. It's been only last few months that I've been seriously considering full-time jag dev. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philipj Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 Must be a reading comprehension issue. It's been only last few months that I've been seriously considering full-time jag dev. Same here... At least I'm trying to get to that place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VladR Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 Same here... At least I'm trying to get to that place. What exactly do you mean ? Full time dev ? Really ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenixdownita Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 Must be a reading comprehension issue. It's been only last few months that I've been seriously considering full-time jag dev. Oh no no ..... the superscaler thing is rather new, for the last few years it was all about how much 3D the Jag can pump, first with textures (3DO road rash), then without (flat poly in stun runner style), then in super Hi-res (just because ... super stun runner) then now it's superscaler (which admittedly the Jag can do ... see Super Burnout) .... there was also a lot of Hero 3D which if you decide to ship may actually turn out to be a decent update of an old classic .... but we may never know. So no, no reading comprehension issues, just complete and utter disbelief given the past years of boom and bust (develop, throw up a demo, mention Hero 3D, pause, disappear, ...... , reappear, switch target, develop, throw up a demo, mention Hero 3D, pause, disappear, ..... lather rinse repeat). 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philipj Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 What exactly do you mean ? Full time dev ? Really ? Well not full time... Just enough to make some meaningful stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clint Thompson Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 Well not full time... Just enough to make some meaningful stuff. Have you downloaded Rb+ yet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philipj Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 Have you downloaded Rb+ yet? I got it... Been making some plans for it. I haven't poke around on it yet, but it's in my scope; first 2D and then 3D stuff once I've got the hang of things. Programming is still the newest of an old concept at this point so I just record ideas so I don't forget them based on Jag manual other sources... I'm bound to hit on something worthwhile. Got things going on in my home life so time can be an issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VladR Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 then now it's superscaler (which admittedly the Jag can do ... see Super Burnout) .... Seriously ? Did I ever question if jag can handle the pathetic sprite count of Super Burnout ? Please tell me when. Super Burnout doesn't scale nowhere near the amount of pixels than, what's the most famous superscaler game, AfterBurner. SuperBurnout rarely covers 33-50% of the screen with sprites, but AfterBurner has so much overdraw, that those bitmaps easily cover 2x-4x full screen (even though they're placed only in the lower half of screen). Every row covers about 50% of the pixels behind it, but since those sprites are transparent, the back row has to be rendered in full. That sh*t adds up real fast. You clearly haven't played or seen it recently. And that's not even considering the rotation of the sprites in AfterBurner. This sh*t got me curious, so I'm already working on some pixel scaling benchmark. Looks, like I broke my $10 vid capture USB stick, while travelling last month (doesn't light up or install on any PC), so I won't be able to record it this weekend, but I ordered Roxio GameCapture,which is supposedly able to capture at 60 fps, and that should arrive next week. Hopefully, I ordered proper adapter too... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+CyranoJ Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 so I won't be able to record it this weekend, but I ordered Roxio GameCapture,which is supposedly able to capture at 60 fps, and that should arrive next week. Hopefully, I ordered proper adapter too... I'm sure if you watched it on youtube you'd know exactly what to order 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VladR Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 I'm sure if you watched it on youtube you'd know exactly what to order There was something, missing, in my life, when i was driving ~10,000 km across United States last month. I couldn't quite figure out what... No mountain, no National Park, no nature wonder can come remotely close to the feeling one gets when browsing Jaguar section of AtariAge Now, I feel I'm home Thank You 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagChris Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 You know VladR you can only count YT frames if you're in that special club around here. http://atariage.com/forums/topic/280831-what-was-the-jaguar-truly-capable-of/?do=findComment&comment=4072392 Here someone is doing what they are jumping all over you about. Now I don't know if that's 5, 25 or 50 fps. Because supposedly you can't tell these things from a YT video. Or can you? Whatever it is it's nice and smooth, no visible stutter as the scenery rolls by that I can see. Wing flaps are smooth also. If it's 5fps I'll take it because it's a damn smooth 5fps. So someday when you get that special membership card VladR you can then count the YT frames. And you'll get cheers of Good call! And high fives all around. Until then... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenixdownita Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 .... Super Burnout doesn't scale nowhere near the amount of pixels than, what's the most famous superscaler game, AfterBurner. .... You do know that there are actually 4 SuperScaler board generations right? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Sega_arcade_system_boards#Super_Scaler_series AfterBurner (and AfterBurner 2) runs on the X-Board which is the third https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Sega_arcade_video_games#Super_Scaler_series Super Burnout does compare well with the others MOST FAMOUS super scaler games: Hang-on, Super Hang-On and OutRun So yes the Jag can at least reach that level (2nd gen SuperScaler) .... so yes it can run super scaler class games, didn't say it can run them all. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VladR Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 You do know that there are actually 4 SuperScaler board generations right? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Sega_arcade_system_boards#Super_Scaler_series AfterBurner (and AfterBurner 2) runs on the X-Board which is the third https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Sega_arcade_video_games#Super_Scaler_series Yeah, I know. Super Burnout does compare well with the the others MOST FAMOUS super scaler games: Hang-on, Super Hang-On and OutRun So yes the Jag can at least reach that level (2nd gen SuperScaler) .... so yes it can run super scaler class games, didn't say it can run them all. Outrun ? Wow ! The Jag can run Atari-ST level games ? THAT IS SOME AMAZING SH*T What's next ? You say that jag can "run" Afterburner in 10-15 fps ? I don't argue that either, given the Blitter's performance, when rasterizing scanline-by-scanline, which you have to do when rotating sprites. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VladR Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 Last night I started working on the sprite benchmarks and this is what I got: - resolution 320x200 - background screen 65,536 colors - foreground sprites 256 colors - base transparent sprite: 40x40 pixels Covering the 100% full screen with copies of the sprite (4 rows of 8 sprites per row -> 32 sprites): - 60 fps - takes 80% of the frame time, so there's very little buffer for anything else - uses the fastest phrase transfer, one Blitter command per sprite - if we use pixel transfer mode, the framerate drops to 17 fps (it's the almighty jaguar, indeed!) - this is not even scaling, just basic sprite drawing - written in GPU, 68000/DSP is idle. So, without any scaling whatsoever, relying on jaguar Blitter POWAH, we can barely cover whole screen with copies of the sprite. It should be blatantly obvious by now, that any remotely playable solution will have to be a complex sorting hybrid between OP and Blitter, and without any run-time scaling. Just like I mentioned earlier in my write-up. Run-time scaling's next... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pacman000 Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 Outrun, Atari ST Outrun, Arcade Super Burnout, Atari Jaguar 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Dragon Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 Before this thread gets locked. For anyone with even a passing interest in how Sega made Afterburner.... http://shmuplations.com/afterburner/ Think of it as an intermission between the 'debate' that's underway above.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenixdownita Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 Yeah, I know. Outrun ? Wow ! The Jag can run Atari-ST level games ? THAT IS SOME AMAZING SH*T What's next ? You say that jag can "run" Afterburner in 10-15 fps ? I don't argue that either, given the Blitter's performance, when rasterizing scanline-by-scanline, which you have to do when rotating sprites. Outrun port to Atari ST and Amiga is "bad" .... so please EDIT: thank you pacman000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VladR Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 pacman000: fair enough. The ST port looks awful, indeed. I don't understand why, even with just a road on the screen (and no sprites to scale), the framerate is so choppy. ST can most certainly draw such road much smoother. Probably a quick botched port ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Dragon Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 (edited) If my memory serves..the home micro versions of Out Run were infamous on 8 and 16 bit computers for a number of reasons.. Probe were paranoid about not getting the 8 bit versions out in time for Xmas and rushed them..ZX Spectrum previews even used mock up screens, lot more detail in the graphics. The ST and Amiga Out Run engine was optimised and reused on Roadblasters and Chase H.Q II.. No matter how poor it was, they got milage (no pun intended) from it. Turbo Out Run wasn't that impressive on Amiga and ST either. Lot of stories concerning ST and Amiga Powerdrift being rubbish because a producer told the coder just to get as many other cars on screen at once as he could, rather than listening to the coders advice. We suffered as ST and Amiga owners when it came to conversions of Sega Coin Ops at times. Least we forget Argonaut converting Afterburner to the home systems...shudder. There are 2 different versions of Amiga Out Run with different copyright years, 1 has a moving starfield intro, they have different sized screens, 1 has a bug where the car image has been flipped horizontally when cornering to the far right causing the driver and passenger to instantaneously switch places etc.. So yep..botch jobs Edited August 16, 2018 by Lost Dragon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gummy Bear Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 Pretty Soldier Sailor Moon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VladR Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 Pretty Soldier Sailor Moon Unfortunately, there's too much graphics for a cart version. Even at 6 MB, you could, maybe, fit 1-2 environments. From YT, it looks, like plenty indoor scenes could be rendered procedurally, on demand, so that could extend the amount of content considerably. Looks, like there's a fair amount of different characters, though. Can't do much to compress them. CD version, I'm afraid... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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