Can the STE's PCM sound chip play Amiga modules?

[Foebane]

OK, first time I joked here, mostly because name Foebane - but now I asking moderators to look his trolling, and get rid from this misery.

 

I am NOT trolling, and I take a very DIM view of people who think I am. Don't forget, this is an Atari forum, not just ST, and I appreciate the Atari 400/800/XL/XE much more than I appreciate the Jackintosh, and I doubt I would be banned because I support at least one of the platforms here.

[Foebane]

Foebane... the problem was your joysticks autofire. Btw since you clearly hate the st and since anything you write is produced by a very simple piece of code

 

if(string=='amiga'){

return good;

else

return bad;

}

 

Is there any more point to your comments?

 

To elaborate, I don't exactly hate EVERYTHING about the ST, and to be frank, "hate" is a strong word, but I really don't like that Yamaha sound chip, it just doesn't seem suited to a 16-bit system.

 

I couldn't edit my previous post to you, so I posted again.

 

 

 

I am NOT trolling, and I take a very DIM view of people who think I am. Don't forget, this is an Atari forum, not just ST, and I appreciate the Atari 400/800/XL/XE much more than I appreciate the Jackintosh, and I doubt I would be banned because I support at least one of the platforms here.

 

I take back my attitude here, but again, I couldn't edit my previous post.

Edited December 9, 2017 by Foebane

[Lynxpro]

 

 

When Jack Tramiel took over Atari Inc. it was clear that he have only one goal: to bring RBP (aka ST) to market. Everything else was not important.

 

So Amiga would have no future with Jack Tramiels Atari.

 

Dave Morse have no option but to sold Amiga to Commodore (since Apple, HP, Sony, SiliconGraphics... all turn down Amiga)!

 

David Morse "ripped off" Atari Inc/Warner, not Jack Tramiel's TTL/Atari Corp.

 

Morse and Amiga Corp couldn't repay the $500k loan to Atari Inc. And thus Atari Inc was going to own Amiga Corp and its precious Lorraine chipset. Morse went to Commodore - which was forbidden by the agreement with Atari Inc - and agreed to sell Amiga Corp to them for $25 million. He then lied to Atari Inc stating the Lorraine chipset didn't work and then tried to repay the $500k loan.

 

It had absolutely nothing to do with Jack Tramiel. They've concocted an entire story to shield them from what would most likely be considered fraud in a court of law.

 

Now, that's not to say Jack Tramiel didn't try to take Amiga's tech from Commodore when they counter-sued them. Counter. Remember that. Commodore started the whole thing. It was a giant fiasco and multi-year litigation.

 

Tramiel and Atari Corp ultimately got their revenge on Morse and Company via the acquisition of the Epyx Handy - which became the Atari Lynx - after Morse tried to make Epyx into a "$100 Million Independent Gaming Publisher" and failed. The Handy project involved Morse, RJ, and Needle, 3 of the parties involved in the Amiga Lorraine and the ultimate rivalry between the Atari ST and the Commodore Amiga.

Edited December 9, 2017 by Lynxpro

[Christos]

 

That's correct, but you do not win a prize since you insulted me. Why would Jack permit such a stupid design decision? I confirmed the joystick test by holding down the fire button when I reset. Result? Same issue.

 

I prefer the term accurate description of your posts. I didn't insult you, I never called you any names or implied that you are some stupid person who can't see the light, as your posts seem to imply for any ST fan who reads this. It's absolutely OK not to like, dislike, hate with every fiber of your being the ST, what ever you think accurately describes your feelings, but I don't see why you need to keep repeating those long debunked myths, misinformation and outright lies. I also don't see why you refuse to accept the proven arguments about the ST's merits that have been made by other users or why you refuse to accept that any other experience but your own is valid.

You've had a bad experience with the ST, that's great because you found the Amiga and you saved your 16-bit computing. We've had various experiences with the Amiga, good, bad, whatever, and a wonderful experience with the ST. That doesn't mean that any of us is an idiot, just that we had different needs or expectations or whatever. When you realize that, you won't come accross so arrogant.

[Foebane]

 

I prefer the term accurate description of your posts. I didn't insult you, I never called you any names or implied that you are some stupid person who can't see the light, as your posts seem to imply for any ST fan who reads this. It's absolutely OK not to like, dislike, hate with every fiber of your being the ST, what ever you think accurately describes your feelings, but I don't see why you need to keep repeating those long debunked myths, misinformation and outright lies. I also don't see why you refuse to accept the proven arguments about the ST's merits that have been made by other users or why you refuse to accept that any other experience but your own is valid.

You've had a bad experience with the ST, that's great because you found the Amiga and you saved your 16-bit computing. We've had various experiences with the Amiga, good, bad, whatever, and a wonderful experience with the ST. That doesn't mean that any of us is an idiot, just that we had different needs or expectations or whatever. When you realize that, you won't come accross so arrogant.

 

Sorry, Christos, I meant to change that first remark about insulting me, but for some reason the Edit button was non-existent. I take that back. I was also soused when I posted last night, so that's another something-I-should-not-do for me, really, but I was upset by the posts I saw, namely yours and the one that followed it, I reacted and I take it back.

 

I don't hate everything about the ST - the graphics are good and, to be frank, I've been impressed by a lot of the Demoscene graphics stuff I've seen on it (both STFM and STE), but I think the poor sound chips let down the ST line. After all, that's what this thread was all about. If I've gone off on a tangent, I shouldn't really have insulted people on the computers they had, as children, or by choice, or both.

 

I had a mostly good-to-great experience with the ST - after all, it was my first 16-bit system, by choice - and I enjoyed several games on it, namely Carrier Command, Damocles, E-Motion, Vaxine and a few others. The joystick autofire was the only worrying part, as I recall. It was only later that I went for the Amiga, after much convincing of my parents after the £300 they just splurged out (I must've made a hell of a speech, I don't recall anything about it). They gave in, my Dad walked in my room at Christmas and practically threw in my first (albeit faulty) Amiga 500 and that was that. I sold the ST to the college I was at at the time, and continued to use it there for a while. I have fond memories of my time with the ST, but it was not a Jay Miner machine (I must've had a REAL hard-on for that guy at the time, but all I knew was I wanted a kind of "higher-end" Atari 800XL experience. More of the same, please, etc. BUT, the audio was a disappointment for the most part.

 

I don't mean to troll, but my drinking at night gets the better of me. I should really stay off forums at those times, I've landed myself in trouble before. If I sound hostile once more one night, then call me out on it.

[ParanoidLittleMan]

 

I am NOT trolling, and I take a very DIM view of people who think I am. Don't forget, this is an Atari forum, not just ST, and I appreciate the Atari 400/800/XL/XE much more than I appreciate the Jackintosh, and I doubt I would be banned because I support at least one of the platforms here.

Precisely. this IS Atari ST, TT. Falcon forum - or in other words Atari ST and compatible followers forum. I guess you can be more active in section dedicated to your beloved 8-bit Ataris. I never owned such thing - ah, that's wrong - actually I had 800XL for short time, as result of some compensation. But I was active then with my ST, and I needed money, So, I sold it after 1 week - I just did not need game machine. In some serious usage it just had no chance. Now, if someone comes with some disrespect blah, that would be biggest BS. You just don't have time in life to deal with everything.

And that's the problem here - you write so shallow things, that it is disrespect, even if your intention was not it. I mean whole that constant beep issue - that's something what every ST user experienced. and happens if some key is pressed by power on, or pressing in very short time after power on. The reason is simple: coders of TOS did not care about. And why should waste time about such trivial thing ?

I know what I talking about. Same thing happens when you restore complete TOS state by RAM content swap, what was saved earlier. If that saving was with pressed key, and after restoring you normally have no pressed any key, but state is saved with pressed key, and then auto repeat simply starts. I needed to ensure - because described, that state save can happen only with released all keys.

So, basically, your quiz was pretty much some bragging.

Support whatever you want here, but then use decent arguments. I never was on some XL forum. Was couple times in Amiga forum, just because wanted to ask about some specific things. But it soon turned into chaos because idiots - who took chance to start yet another flame war.

[Foebane]

 

 

The reason is simple: coders of TOS did not care about. And why should waste time about such trivial thing ?

 

Trivial? I thought I'd damaged my ST, somehow, and I risked it further by taking it as I did into town to get it seen to, to no avail, on an unnecessary trip, because I did not know about this quirk of the ST, and I had absolutely no possible way of knowing about it back then.

 

Put it this way, this philosophy of "not caring" nearly cost me a computer!

 

[ParanoidLittleMan]

LOL. I guess that all it was simpler than turning it off and turning it on after 5 secs

[calimero]

 

You mean Tramiel wanted Amiga so badly so he could KILL IT STONE DEAD??? WHAT a BASTARD DOUCHEBAG!

 

What is RBP again?

 

So, here's the real reasons why those companies turned down Amiga:

Apple sucks, it's only ever been about Jobs' closed-system vision, nothing else matters.

HP only ever do printers anyway.

Sony are Japanese and do their own thing.

SiliconGraphics are a bit high-end with their stuff, to be honest.

 

I think you did not understand:

 

David Morse did offer Amiga technology to ALL of these companies all these companies turn down him!

I forgot to mention Philips: they (beside Atari Inc.) was interested in Amiga technology.

 

And please take a look at HP history - it is far from "only ever do printers anyway"

 

Calimero, have you seen "From Bedrooms to Billions: The Amiga Years"? Does RJ Mical repeat his statement there, too? I have it, and I could find out for myself, but it's a long documentary.

 

I watch this documentary and mark it as TRUE in thread REWRITING HISTORY - 'Jack Tramiel loaned Amiga $500.000' - in thread you will find exact minute in movie when they talk about Atari deal. They present it in right way.

 

 

You can find R J Mical talking these false story of Jack Tramiel in many other occasion. E.g. "RJ Mical on the Amiga, Commodore and everything in between" http://www.amigahistory.plus.com/comment-6.html(just search for "Jack") - this is transcript of R J Mical talk: "the glory years of amiga part 1 of 4 with R. J. Mical" https://archive.org/details/the_glory_years_of_amiga_part_1_of_4_with_R._J._Mical(@14 minute)

 

R J Mical really make this Amiga cult prominent since he gave more then few dozen of public lecture in this way across USA in 80s (himself brag about this) and help to build this myth how Jack Tramiel wanted Amiga badly and how ST was "revenge".

Edited December 10, 2017 by calimero

[calimero]

LOL. I guess that all it was simpler than turning it off and turning it on after 5 secs

 

It would not help!

 

Problem is that ST wont boot if "auto fire" (hardware switch on joystick) is turned on!

[Foebane]

 

It would not help!

 

Problem is that ST wont boot if "auto fire" (hardware switch on joystick) is turned on!

 

I concur!

 

Paranoid, it's not just a case of "turning it on and off again", it would happen whenever a joystick was connected with autofire turned on and contact made at the right moment. I mean, once you know how it happens, you can take steps to prevent it by turning off the autofire, but as I said, I practically panicked when it first happened, as I recounted above.

[ParanoidLittleMan]

 

It would not help!

 

Problem is that ST wont boot if "auto fire" (hardware switch on joystick) is turned on!

Yeah. I expected that you will come with that. The next rule for such case: detach everything unnecessary for basic work from computer.

Third rule (just to prevent more unnecessary replies) would be to call neighbour or local friend for help.

How is that this 'huge design error' was not fixed ? Because nobody reported to Atari (or at least minimum reports).

Truth is that I know much worse design failures, actually myself found some:

http://atari-forum.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=32669

[Foebane]

Yeah. I expected that you will come with that. The next rule for such case: detach everything unnecessary for basic work from computer.

Third rule (just to prevent more unnecessary replies) would be to call neighbour or local friend for help.

How is that this 'huge design error' was not fixed ? Because nobody reported to Atari (or at least minimum reports).

Truth is that I know much worse design failures, actually myself found some:

http://atari-forum.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=32669

 

1. This was around 28 years ago, and I was too panicked and too young to think logically. To be frank, I can't remember if I tried to resolve it but it happened again or not, but I think I would've tried something.

2. What could a neighbour or local friend do?

3. I will reply here as often as I like, you're not going to shut me up that easily.

[ParanoidLittleMan]

 

1. This was around 28 years ago, and I was too panicked and too young to think logically.

LOLOLOLOLOL .

And now you are full of logic

[OldSchoolRetroGamer]

[Foebane]

Calimero, I looked at your comprehensive thread about Atari vs Commodore over Amiga, and I do believe you're right about what you said before, and you say that From Bedrooms to Billions Amiga Years tells the truth, and that Viva Amiga were spreading falsehoods and even false newspaper articles (I never liked Viva Amiga anyway, I thought there was something off with it).

 

From my personal recollection of articles written decades ago, Amiga were having difficulty finding an interested party for their tech, and that Tramiel wanted the chips but NOT the design team, so that is at least the truth as I know it.

 

RJ Mical and Dave Needle were probably extremely pissed at Tramiel at the time, so maybe it was just a bit of mud-slinging, but they relented later on? Didn't Mical tell the truth in FBTB? I'll have to check out the part of that doc you mentioned at some point.

[calimero]

Thanks Foebane for taking time to read material!

 

You are right regarding Jack wanted Amiga technology at one point in time! It was while he still was at Commodore but I can not find any more detail/proof; I also hear this story. Maybe Jack Tramiel repeat story at "Commodore 64—25th Anniversary Celebration"

but I have no time right now to listen entire panel...

 

Unfortunate R J Mical and Dave Needle did not relented :/ you have 54 minute interview with Dave Needle and you can listen him how he repeat story about Jack.

R J Mical at 30th Amiga anniversary told story about how he meet Jack and restaurant and how Jack was rude... ...

in FBTB authors let other people tell story about Atari and Commodore, not R J Mical...

Edited December 11, 2017 by calimero

[AMenard]

 

Besides it and Falcon, what other games could do that via null modem cable...not to mention operate multi-platform?

 

Firepower Sorry I missunderstood

Edited December 11, 2017 by AMenard

[fedepede04]

 

Actually, the Amiga was first meant to be a console game system. One that Atari Inc was going to market and Atari Coin was going to use the chipset in their arcade machines. But Commodore and David Morse screwed that all up.

 

It's really a shame Atari Corp couldn't get Atari Inc's AMY sound chip to work in the ST. Amiga with its DMA audio wouldn't have stood a chance against that 64-voice monster.

why did you wake this thread and feed the troll :D

[fedepede04]

ok while we have the troll here, so let me say, in the right hand the Ym2149 beat the crap of the paula any time of the day.

problem was many did not know how to use it. so go back to amiga land and crawl back under the rock you came from......

[Foebane]

ok while we have the troll here, so let me say, in the right hand the Ym2149 beat the crap of the paula any time of the day.

problem was many did not know how to use it. so go back to amiga land and crawl back under the rock you came from......

 

Bleepity-blip-bleep-bloopy-blop vs real-life instrument sounds. Yeah, right. Who's the troll here?

[Ayreon]

The YM/AY is a real life instrument, just like the pokey and SID they generate the sound.

[zzip]

ok while we have the troll here, so let me say, in the right hand the Ym2149 beat the crap of the paula any time of the day.

problem was many did not know how to use it. so go back to amiga land and crawl back under the rock you came from......

 

Examples of this? I owned an ST for years and didn't like most of the music I heard from the YM.

[Foebane]

The YM/AY is a real life instrument, just like the pokey and SID they generate the sound.

 

Yet people here berate Paula for "being mainly a collection of DACs", when essentially your modern-day PC also mainly has DACs in its audio hardware.

[Christos]

 

Examples of this? I owned an ST for years and didn't like most of the music I heard from the YM.

 

Mad Max, David Whittaker, 505, Dma-Sc, lots of composers really. To be honest, Paula sounds more modern but the YM is not a bad chip at all. What I think is true though, is that many Paula stuff sound a bit muffled and squashed (if they are the correct words in english) while the YM is higher fidelity (if that's also the correct word).