Technical help to powerup original keyboard component in UK

[Ron The Cat]

Hi guys , I need some technical help

 

I was recently lucky and got the rare keyboard component on Ebay last month (which I have previously posted about) but I am in the UK

 

I have got a proper power convertor for it as advised on this forum to deal with the difference in electrical supply

 

Question is ...do I need to buy a US intellivision master component to connect to it ?

 

There is a connector which plugs into the master component from the keyboard ..does just data go across or will I have electrical problems.

 

 

 

My TV can deal with displaying the USA PAL signal if I end up getting a US master component ..the keyboard using the video display of the master component I believe

 

 

 

[+DZ-Jay]

I believe you need a Master Component. The entire thing was supposed to be an add-on to the console. This is why it was called the Master Component, because it was the center of a whole host of components for education and entertainment -- at least as originally designed.

 

-dZ.

[mr_me]

The Keyboard Component has its own video chip TMS9927, and outputs its own monochrome text video on cartridge port pin 8 that goes to the Master Component. With an ntsc 2609 Intellivision, the KC video would also have to be ntsc.

 

On a 2609 pin 8 connects into the video output somwhere between the color chip ay3-8915 and the rf modulator. Pal Intellivisions (1591 in UK) don't have an ay3-8915 but I imagine the video connects similarly. Does anyone have a schematic of the pal 1591 intellivision.

 

The Keyboard Component video genlocks to a signal it receives on cartridge pin 4. That signal comes from the STIC chip (v5). I would think that signal would be different between an ntsc stic and a pal stic.

 

I think the TMS9927 video chip in the KC could be programmed to output pal but I'm not sure if the KC software is designed to switch from ntsc to pal depending on the signal it receives.

 

I don't think you could damage the KC with a pal intellivision but I'd be surprised if it works. I could be wrong on both counts. An ntsc 2609 Intellivision, works better anyway. It runs faster and fills the TV screen better. But it would be interesting to know if the KC was designed to handle pal. The KC does have a power socket for the Intellivision power plug, it's obviously not dedigned for a UK 1591 intellivision.

Edited October 31, 2017 by mr_me

[Ron The Cat]

Thanks guys , I have decided I am playing it safe and have just brought a USA Intellivision on ebay , will report back if the keyboard ends up working later in November !

[mr_me]

Someone has to figure out how to replicate/copy KC cassette tapes from wav files. Making a Basic cartridge should be straightforward.

 

Did your package come with the microphone or cable extender?

Edited October 31, 2017 by mr_me

[Intymike]

Maybe you can do an A/V mod on the 2609 Intellivision. Would be a great help with the output of the console.

[decle]

Thanks guys , I have decided I am playing it safe and have just brought a USA Intellivision on ebay , will report back if the keyboard ends up working later in November !

 

Firstly, many congratulations, I think you got a steal. I'm not aware of other UK collectors owning one. I, for one, am jealous.

 

As has already been suggested I would go with an all NTSC setup to keep things simple. Even power feed through from the KC to the MC might need some thought in a mixed setup. Although the Black Whales were used in the Nice Ideas office (you can see it sitting on the shelf behind Patrick Aubry in this picture) in France there are no details on what, if any, changes were made for the differing standards.

 

I'm based in the South East and I have some electronics experience, although admittedly with restoring PAL, rather than NTSC, retro kit. If I can be of any help getting things going drop me a PM. Needless to say, if there is an opportunity to see the KC first hand at some point in the future, I would be most interested, California is a long way to go.

 

 

Cheers

 

decle

[Ron The Cat]

Someone has to figure out how to replicate/copy KC cassette tapes from wav files. Making a Basic cartridge should be straightforward.

 

Did your package come with the microphone or cable extender?

No it did not have them all anything else. Should manage without the cable extender by the looks of it.

[Ron The Cat]

 

Firstly, many congratulations, I think you got a steal. I'm not aware of other UK collectors owning one. I, for one, am jealous.

 

As has already been suggested I would go with an all NTSC setup to keep things simple. Even power feed through from the KC to the MC might need some thought in a mixed setup. Although the Black Whales were used in the Nice Ideas office (you can see it sitting on the shelf behind Patrick Aubry in this picture) in France there are no details on what, if any, changes were made for the differing standards.

 

I'm based in the South East and I have some electronics experience, although admittedly with restoring PAL, rather than NTSC, retro kit. If I can be of any help getting things going drop me a PM. Needless to say, if there is an opportunity to see the KC first hand at some point in the future, I would be most interested, California is a long way to go.

 

 

Cheers

 

decle

Thanks , it was a cheap now I look back on it so spending a bit more for a US Intellivision is worth it. Would be nice if it does end up powering up at least but not too fussed as never thought I would own one of these.

 

By all means if fancy seeing it some time and a beer let me know , located very close to London bridge station so easy to get to.

[David Rolfe]

It would be noteworthy if it were possible to execute and record the Exercise or French cassettes, which demonstrated the pinnacle of the hardware and software...complex motion with coordinated sound playback, and digital and audio recording. You get a taste of what's there on the demo cassette.

 

https://youtu.be/mvsT7ZI4ikU?t=221

 

One particular note...Mattel hired Robert Randles, a talented musician, to create little musical jingles to go with each exercise on the Exercise cassette. We worked with Randles to faithfully reproduce far more complex musical effects than had ever been done on the Master Component alone (not because the hardware couldn't do it, but because it took too much storage). Now, with infinite storage, we could produce effects such as glissandi. So Exercise includes both a lot of audio clips by Jack LaLanne (his name was a household word at the time) and customized electronic music that was pretty amazing for the era. It would be interesting if this stuff could be resurrected.

 

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0709841/

 

The cassette tapes were uni-directional and had four tracks; two audio and two digital. One of the audio and digital tracks were pre-recorded, the other pair were blank and could be used to record home audio or digital data. I wonder whether any cassettes exist which can be read and reproduced these days. I'm pretty sure nobody would ever try to produce a new homebrew cassette; the process was intricate and wouldn't be worth the effort. (FWIW, I sent a bunch of old doc (the Keyboard Component version of the "Your Friend..." stuff, and the like) and commentary to Paul of the Intellivisionaries; historical stuff but of no practical use.) But if an old cart could be resurrected and played, it might make an interesting recording.

Edited November 4, 2017 by David Rolfe

[Ron The Cat]

The keyboard component was so ahead of its time, thanks David for the info.

 

I had the very early brochure with the keyboard on the cover but lost it in a move a few years ago , not seen one come up on Ebay since.

 

 

I randomly came across this image of an Intellivision box on the web , but darn if I can find the link for it now.

 

Does anyone know if this is a rare box as it features a picture of the keyboard component on the front (maybe a sticker?). Not seen one like it before.

[+DZ-Jay]

Dear Mr. Rolfe,

 

Thank you for the details. The Keyboard Component was certainly an impressive piece of technology.

 

The cassette tapes were uni-directional and had four tracks; two audio and two digital. One of the audio and digital tracks were pre-recorded, the other pair were blank and could be used to record home audio or digital data. I wonder whether any cassettes exist which can be read and reproduced these days.

 

I seem to remember an effort by the early home-brew guys to read and reproduce some of the cassette tapes early on. I do not know what, if anything, came of this.

 

I also believe that there are some collectors who have acquired some of the cassettes and software for the Keyboard Component. These could be read with a four-track cassette player, like the old Tascam PortaStudio or the Porta-One Mini Studio, which are not hard to come by in eBay. These players treat the cassette as a four-track single-sided medium, just like the Keyboard Component did.

 

-dZ.

[mr_me]

Yes, people have the original tapes but a working tape drive seems rare. I haven't heard of a fully working keyboard component being shown for a long time. If anyone has a working one now, they are keeping it quiet. A video would be nice.

 

The keyboard component has been partially emulated in software. My understanding is that fully emulating the tape drive is being worked on. Emulation of one of the basic cassettes has been demonstrated. Supposedly all the known tapes have been dumped and some unreleased ones as well.

 

It would be nice if we had a way to duplicate cassettes for those that have a keyboard component but no tapes. Can standard audio cassettes be used?

 

So there is a keyboard component programming guide? Yes, not of practical use but would still be interesting to read how the system worked. Those tape drive were a good idea back when cartridges were limited to 4K, but it was only a few years before we started seeing seeing 24k cartridges and now they can go much larger. Any guess what the largest keyboard component program might have been?

 

...

Does anyone know if this is a rare box as it features a picture of the keyboard component on the front (maybe a sticker?). Not seen one like it before.

It's not all that rare, there were probably hundreds of thousands made. An earlier version had NFL football on the TV. That box is one of the reasons Mattel got in trouble with FCC. So is that brochure you have.

[mthompson]

Does anyone know if this is a rare box as it features a picture of the keyboard component on the front (maybe a sticker?). Not seen one like it before.

 

That's identical to the box for my Intellivision, which I bought in the fall of 1980. No stickers other than the serial number.

Mattel really had my interest in getting that keyboard component, especially with the promo information on the back of that box. I'm still waiting for Super Football (though Super Pro Football managed to squeeze in most of those features).

 

[mr_me]

There was a prototype tape of Super Football found, maybe Dave remembers something about its development or who was working on it, [or any of the other cassette programs]. Tom Loughry mentioned in one of the interviews that he helped out with Super Football. Had Super Football been released it would have been the first sports video game with instant replay, at least ten years before any other had it.

Edited November 5, 2017 by mr_me

[David Rolfe]

With respect to the question of emulating the Keyboard Unit, my opinion is it wouldn't be worthwhile. It was a marvel of its era, and it would be great to capture videos from a working unit, but I think watching those videos would be no less satisfying than running a full emulation. That's because the cassettes are a structured learning experience, so there's less room for variation and fresh amusement than there is for a free-form game. Does anyone really need to participate interactively with Jack Lalanne's exercises or Mimi's French lessons? The experience would be pretty much like watching the video, with some minor alternations.

[mr_me]

True, but right now we don't even have good videos. The MAME project has over 2000 computers and that's not including game machines. They have obscure computers and old computers all the way back to the "Manchester Small-Scale Experimental Machine (SSEM) from 1948. Seems like just creating the emulator is a worthwhile experience for these guys.

Edited November 7, 2017 by mr_me

[Ron The Cat]

So bad news looks like the keyboard component is not functioning now finally got it powered up and connected.

I just get a green screen (see below).

 

Good news is something works - when if you stick a game catridge in the keyboard component and type "C" and "Return" it switches to game mode.

I cannot be too unhappy about this as I never thought I would ever own one.

 

Anything else when I try to use key combinations set out in the user guide does nothing, including ejecting the cassette deck.

 

Its providing power to the master component via the plug in the corner of the unit and data must be going along something to enable it to switch into game mode.

Strange the keyboard recognises "C" "Return" but nothing else.

 

Took a look at the service manual it but not venturing trying anything just yet.

http://papaintellivision.com/pdfs/KeyboardComponentServiceManual.pdf

 

 

I'm in the UK and running a USA master component with it and my Phillips TV accepts PAL although a little wobbly at times.

 

 

Any one have any ideas ?

Edited November 16, 2017 by Ron The Cat

[decle]

OK cool. Most everything must be working to get the game to work

 

Clock, CPU, ROM, RAM, etc. If there is a fault it might just be the video subsystem, and I think that is pretty standard based on a TMS-9927. It could also be a problem with the video overlay in the master component. Hmm, how to isolate which is at fault.

 

Do you get beeps as you type, like this?

 

 

Oh, and don't expect the tape drive to work. By all accounts they next to never do.

Edited November 16, 2017 by decle

[Ron The Cat]

OK cool. Most everything must be working to get the game to work

 

Clock, CPU, ROM, RAM, etc. If there is a fault it might just be the video subsystem, and I think that is pretty standard based on a TMS-9927. It could also be a problem with the video overlay in the master component. Hmm, how to isolate which is at fault.

 

Do you get beeps as you type, like this?

 

 

Oh, and don't expect the tape drive to work. By all accounts they next to never do.

 

I don't get any sound , even when I am in game mode and fire some tank guns.

Might be related to the PAL signal to my TV - it supports PAL but weird is there no sound.

There is no sound either if I plug the master component alone to the TV.

Even with the wobbly green screen pressing the keys to get any menu to appear does not seem to work.

The only other master component I have is a UK one which I cannot use (probably blow everything up and they keyboard only accepts a US socket for it)

Edited November 16, 2017 by Ron The Cat

[Intymike]

On modern Flat tvs you get NTSC pictures but no sound. The frequencies are to off. Maybe you do a av mod on the console. That would help a lot.

[decle]

On modern Flat tvs you get NTSC pictures but no sound. The frequencies are to off. Maybe you do a av mod on the console. That would help a lot.

 

Ahh, OK. I did not know that.

 

A bit of research shows that the video overlay is done by a diode and resistor connected to pin 8 of the master component cartridge. It should be easy to trace that through and confirm it is all OK with a multimeter. The fact that you get games to display suggests that the rest of the master component video circuitry is fine. I wonder whether the fact that you get the correct green background (as distinct from the darker olive of the master component title screen) is indicative of the master component working correctly. Regardless I think this might be the best place to start.

 

The video subsystem of the keyboard component is based on a TMS-9927 (hat tip to mr_me for confirming that above). It should be possible to check out the CPU side of that with an inexpensive logic analyser (I use a cheap clone of the Saleae Logic connected to my laptop for this purpose). This could probably also be used to diagnose a problem with the PLL used by the keyboard component to sync with the master component video. Although reading here, the "spin" described on reset might suggest that you would expect a rolling display if the PLL failed in some way, rather than nothing at all.

 

If there is a problem with the video side of the TMS-9927 or the dot-clock has a fault it might require a scope to diagnose.

 

If there is a fault it almost certain to be one of blown capacitor, dry joint or failed IC. All should be eminently fixable contingent on finding a replacement, however, diagnosis can require time and patience.

 

Fear not the patient is far from dead.

Edited November 16, 2017 by decle

[mr_me]

There's a good chance you can fix it. Like you said, it's possible the problem is in the MC but I bet it's with the KC video system. Here's another topic about a similar problem.

 

http://atariage.com/forums/topic/207327-made-some-progress-on-keyboard-component-repair-questions/

 

I would have expected the tape drive to respond to eject and other tape commands. It sounds like the KC is working responding to cartridge commands and producing the green background.

[Ron The Cat]

Thanks everyone for your help so far.

 

Looks like I might need to learn some basic electronics testing on circuit boards (unless when I open the unit up something is obvious).

 

Been watching some YouTube clips on testing circuit boards with a logic analyzer, daft question - how do I avoid zapping myself bad as I take it the unit and board need to be powered up ?

 

 

Strange that no keyboard commands are recognised except moving the monitor to game mode , 'C" "Return", cannot even get cassette deck to eject. Maybe if the kb video chips fails it doesn't let you do much else with unit.

 

Where would one get so ancient chips if needed ? Especially the video chip which is probably a certain model for the unit.

[mr_me]

Video chips are on ebay; TMS9927 and CRT5037 might be interchangeable, not sure. It's a concern that tape eject doesn't work. First thing is to open it up and visually inspect the boards for problems. So the Intellivision, by itself, has no audio on your TV? If the cartridge command works the keyboard component software must be running. If audio was working you might be hearing the keyboard beeps.

Edited November 19, 2017 by mr_me